Sovereign Grace

[Episkopos]

What nonsense! Is that all you can think about God?

You're married, is that right?

Is all you can think about concerning your wife is that you don't want to be alone?

More emotional content. You are doing the wrong comparison. Making temporal things to be eternal. But that's what an emotional rationality will do.

You are very much ignoring the truth in order to satisfy an emotional requirement from your temporal ego. But since at least to this point you don't have any other alternative way of seeing things...you will mistake that for being under grace. So you are still thinking ONLY as a carnal man.

But being under grace means you have forsaken the flesh and the carnal mind. Then you can be open to eternal kingdom things. God strengthens the inner man who is very weak. The image of Christ is imprinted on THAT part of us. But again modern preachers will short circuit the cross and promise the carnal man eternal life based on taking verses out of context to mean that God loves the carnal ego of men. So people will claim to be saved and under grace whereas they are still under judgment.

Hint: Marriage is temporal. Not eternal.

 

[marks]

More emotional content. You are doing the wrong comparison. Making temporal things to be eternal. But that's what an emotional rationality will do.

There is much in this world that illustrates truth concerning our relationship with God.

Marriage in particular is one of those.

I bring it up to show the difference in the two types of thinking. In one mindset, we are running in terror from what which would destroy us, in the other, we are running in love towards the One who loves us.

You are very much ignoring the truth in order to satisfy an emotional requirement from your temporal ego.

You keep saying this but you really have no idea about me.

So your words accomplish nothing other than to show your desire to impugne someone else, with accusations of things which you do not know.

So you are still thinking ONLY as a carnal man.

And instead of actually discussing the doctrines, you persist in trying to make this discussion about how carnal I am, which is really getting kind of boring, to tell you the truth.

Constantly refraining from discussion on a discussion forum by making your comments for the most part to be ad hominems. It's actually disappointing.

But being under grace means you have forsaken the flesh and the carnal mind. Then you can be open to eternal kingdom things. God strengthens the inner man who is very weak. The image of Christ is imprinted on THAT part of us.

So far so good . . .

But again modern preachers will short circuit the cross and promise the carnal man eternal life based on taking verses out of context to mean that God loves the carnal ego of men. So people will claim to be saved and under grace whereas they are still under judgment.

Who exactly is promising eternal life to the carnal man?

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

In one mindset, we are running in terror from what which would destroy us, in the other, we are running in love towards the One who loves us.

I can't get you to see how the natural mind is different from the mind of Christ. So your kind of reasoning seems legit...and it would be if God was human and was looking just to save humans the way they are.

But that's not God's way.

We are being tested according to the truth. So if we love our lives more than the truth...we will lose them.

God is a righteous judge...He is not desperate to save us. But we are desperate to be saved. So then the carnal mind confuses the self-preservation motive to be an eternal one. But the opposite is true.

Very few churches teach about the cross and the power that destroys the outer man and his motives and reasonings. It is the sign of the times.

And my warning you doesn't count for anything because you are already in love with the reflection of yourself you see in certain bible verses that give you the warm and fuzzies.

How many times have you said...I like THAT verse?

Why don't you "like" verses that condemn your outer man? If you were wise you would love those verses even more.

 

[john t]

Are you proposing an unlimited grace? Where do you get that from the bible? We can fall from grace and fail grace according to the bible. We can bury our talent and offend God and the spirit of grace.

Do you remember this, from a previous post of yours?

Grace is only sovereign in that it is the power of God over sin

YOU are the one who first brought up the claim, therefore it is up to you to define it, and hopefully so by the use of Scripture in context

So you are the one who needs to back up a preposterous claim.

Not so. You introduced it, therefore you define it. What is preposterous is that you are asking me to define your self-created phrase.

Salvation is ALWAYS conditional...otherwise grace is unlimited for all men.

This is a derail because the topic is grace; salvation is entirely different.

Do you realize that judgment begins at the house of God?

What is the relevance of that to grace? Again, another derail.

Grace is the power to walk as Jesus walked. Do you enter into that grace? It is by faith.

From what source do you get that definition?

Do you have the faith to walk as Jesus walked? What is stopping you from such a great grace?

My beliefs are somewhat irrelevant because you have neglected to define what you mean by "grace" so I cannot comment.

But I think you are looking for a life that is without any responsibility. No such thing exists.

You are projecting a concept upon me that is not true, and not in keeping with the discussion. I am not the issue, nor is my belief. All I am asking for is your definition of your self-created phrase.

The true God holds you accountable for every word and every action.....even every thought.

Yes, there will be a final judgment, but how is that relevant to your self-created phrase?

So you have very much strayed from any kind of biblical thinking if you think that grace means God will go easy on you.

Again, and without warrant, you project onto me a "violation" your undefined phrase.

Do you understand mercy and truth and that these are not the same?

What is the relevance to "grace" here?

All I am doing is seeking clarification because I cannot understand your position.

 

[marks]

Why don't you "like" verses that condemn your outer man? If you were wise you would love those verses even more.

Don't you understand yet, you do not know me, and you've got me all wrong.

And you persist, it seems endlessly, to now talk about the Scriptures, instead you seem to have this endless fascination with you fantasy image of me.

God is a righteous judge...He is not desperate to save us. But we are desperate to be saved. So then the carnal mind confuses the self-preservation motive to be an eternal one. But the opposite is true.

I don't think most people ARE desparate to be saved. I think most people just go on with their lives.

Of course, when you think God is sifting you to see if you're good enough to be with Him, that could bring in some desparation.

Desparate to save us? No, I wouldn't describe God as desparate.

But I would describe Him as the Bible does, someone Who has redeemed us at personal cost because He wants us. Do you realize that God wants you in His family?

It's the attraction of love.

Very few churches teach about the cross and the power that destroys the outer man and his motives and reasonings.

As I've frequently said . . . if this is your experience, try a different church. There are many that are not that way.

How many times have you said...I like THAT verse?

One of my favorite promises in the Bible, Our God is a consuming fire. And that which is to be burned shall be burned away, both within and without.

But hey, why buy into your deflections?

Luke 15
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,
4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

Jesus!!! They're sinners! Carnal sinners! What are you doing????

Finding them, bringing them home.

. . . for you have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. And when Christ, who is your life, shall appear, you also SHALL APPEAR with Him in Glory!

Much love!

 

[marks]

And my warning you doesn't count for anything because you are already in love with the reflection of yourself you see in certain bible verses that give you the warm and fuzzies.

More ad hominem, rather than reasonable discussion.

 

[marks]

We are being tested according to the truth.

Consider your posting.

 

[Episkopos]

Do you remember this, from a previous post of yours?



YOU are the one who first brought up the claim, therefore it is up to you to define it, and hopefully so by the use of Scripture in context



Not so. You introduced it, therefore you define it. What is preposterous is that you are asking me to define your self-created phrase.


This is a derail because the topic is grace; salvation is entirely different.


What is the relevance of that to grace? Again, another derail.


From what source do you get that definition?


My beliefs are somewhat irrelevant because you have neglected to define what you mean by "grace" so I cannot comment.


You are projecting a concept upon me that is not true, and not in keeping with the discussion. I am not the issue, nor is my belief. All I am asking for is your definition of your self-created phrase.


Yes, there will be a final judgment, but how is that relevant to your self-created phrase?


Again, and without warrant, you project onto me a "violation" your undefined phrase.


What is the relevance to "grace" here?

All I am doing is seeking clarification because I cannot understand your position.

The term "sovereign grace" if you read the OP is a term used by Calvinists...aka irresistible grace. (the I in TULIP.) I'm making a case against this exaggeration and unbalanced doctrine.

Grace is the power from God to obey the standards of God...the law of God. His power is made perfect in our weakness. Grace is the power of God usward who believe.

The bible interprets the bible to a large extent. Of course to truly understand the depth of the word one needs the Spirit...and few are going to agree on that without actual spiritual experience.

 

[Episkopos]

More ad hominem, rather than reasonable discussion.

Reasonable discussion involves lucid and biblical arguments that don't ignore vast tracts of biblical verses.

So I don't see much here besides the emotional reaction of someone who believes what they want to.

 

[marks]

Grace is the power from God to obey the standards of God...the law of God. His power is made perfect in our weakness. Grace is the power of God usward who believe.

Christ in you, the hope of glory!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Reasonable discussion involves lucid and biblical arguments that don't ignore vast tracts of biblical verses.

So I don't see much here besides the emotional reaction of someone who believes what they want to.

More implied yet empty accusations, and more ad hominem. This is your answer to my trying to direct the conversation away from fallacies.

As I said, our temperments tend to reveal themselves in our posts. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

I have some extra time right now . . . I just scrolled through the thread . . . not that this is important, but I just wondered to put to test your words, that don't ignore vast tracts of biblical verses.

Yes, we shouldn't ignore the Scriptures. This thread looks to me like most of the rest between you and I, in that as I begin to post more and more Scripture, you begin to post more and more ad hominem. Look and see for yourself if this is not so.

I respond to your content, but you do not respond that way to me. You consistently evade the content, and consistently post your comments about me as a person.

Now, before you start saying I'm just getting all whiney (do I not know you?), I don't care. I mean, it takes a lot of extra typing to have this meta-communication, but it may be fruitful for at least someone. And learning to recognize fallacies of all kinds is very useful in both this format, but also in understanding our own thinking, and having disciplined minds.

Our posts are reflections of our minds, and as we look back over what we write, well, I personally find that this is very useful for my growth, to just take a simple yet honest look at myself in what I write.

We will have to answer for our words. Our words need to be spoken in love.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

More implied yet empty accusations, and more ad hominem. This is your answer to my trying to direct the conversation away from fallacies.

As I said, our temperments tend to reveal themselves in our posts. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

I have some extra time right now . . . I just scrolled through the thread . . . not that this is important, but I just wondered to put to test your words, that don't ignore vast tracts of biblical verses.

Yes, we shouldn't ignore the Scriptures. This thread looks to me like most of the rest between you and I, in that as I begin to post more and more Scripture, you begin to post more and more ad hominem. Look and see for yourself if this is not so.

I respond to your content, but you do not respond that way to me. You consistently evade the content, and consistently post your comments about me as a person.

Now, before you start saying I'm just getting all whiney (do I not know you?), I don't care. I mean, it takes a lot of extra typing to have this meta-communication, but it may be fruitful for at least someone. And learning to recognize fallacies of all kinds is very useful in both this format, but also in understanding our own thinking, and having disciplined minds.

Our posts are reflections of our minds, and as we look back over what we write, well, I personally find that this is very useful for my growth, to just take a simple yet honest look at myself in what I write.

We will have to answer for our words. Our words need to be spoken in love.

Much love!

What is normal is you derailing the thread to make it all about you.

 

[marks]

to make it all about you

Do you not see even now? You are the one who is doing that. It's a discussion board. Instead of answering my posts with discussion, you answer with ad hominem. And it seems that the longer I shine a light on this, the longer you seem to continue to do it. In the most recent post, imputing poor motive, and incorrectly.

I would give much to see our discussions elevated to something a lot better than they are now. I'm hoping you will see this, and consider it.

And on that note, I'll leave it in your hands.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

Of course God will use His sovereign power (grace) to bring us to repentance and faith...

God does not use His force of Power to force us to become saved, as you are teaching.
If He did that, then freewill would not exit, and there would be no need for God to accept our Faith, as genuine.
After all, if you hold a gun to someone's head and they agree, are they doing it because they want to?
So, if as you falsely teach, God holds a gun to a sinner's head and forces them to have faith, "by His Power"... then this faith is not of their free will, and so, its not sincere or true or real or genuine.
Its FORCED faith.
Coerced.... Thats ISLAM.
Does our God of Love Force Himself on anyone?
Well, according to Episkopos, that is How His God behaves.
Mine doesn't.
Does yours Reader?

So, Episkopos..... your = God """forces us to have faith" theology is just one more false teaching that you have managed to Thread to try to deceive the gullible and easily deceived.
I would hope that the rest would not be so easily led into your darkness.

 

[Episkopos]

God does not use His force of Power to force us to become saved, as you are teaching.
If He did that, then freewill would not exit, and there would be no need for God to accept our Faith, as genuine.
After all, if you hold a gun to someone's head and they agree, are they doing it because they want to?
So, if as you falsely teach, God holds a gun to a sinner's head and forces them to have faith, "by His Power"... then this faith is not of their free will, and so, its not sincere or true or real or genuine.
Its FORCED faith.
Coerced.... Thats ISLAM.
Does our God of Love Force Himself on anyone?
Well, according to Episkopos, that is How His God behaves.
Mine doesn't.
Does yours Reader?

So, Episkopos..... your = God """forces us to have faith" theology is just one more false teaching that you have managed to Thread to try to deceive the gullible and easily deceived.
I would hope that the rest would not be so easily led into your darkness.

LOL. Nice theatrics and fluffery. But your lack of experience with God is showing and telling. God indeed uses His power to bring men to repentance. Repentance is a gift as well as something a man can do. Faith is also a gift as well as something required of us. So this tendency of manufacturing your own ideas and theories gets in the way of any real spiritual understanding.

So you are underestimating God and His power.

it is also God that by His power crucifies us to the cross of Christ so that we might walk in Him

But God doesn't force us. We first surrender and cry out to Him...then He will perform His operation on they who call on Him from a pure heart.

When you become qualified in that regard you may also find out how true that is.

 

[Episkopos]

Under grace an equal treatment does not necessarily result in an equal outcome. Conversely ...disparate outcomes do not imply disparate treatment.

In the parable of the sower....the seed isn't what varies in quality. No the seed is the same in every case. It is the ground that changes quality.

A measure of grace could be seen as a talent. In that parable the wicked servant buried his talent...he frustrated grace. He fell short of God's expectation. He didn't please God. So He was rejected.

We are each given grace in order to learn and to do what is pleasing to God...to bear a spiritual fruit.

As long as we hold onto our old ways we will not need grace. Grace only kicks in when we come to the end of ourselves. Otherwise we are living by our own means...not grace. If we live for ourselves and for our own pleasure then we are burying our talent.

Let us not neglect so great a salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Do you not see even now? You are the one who is doing that.

Amen! It's called spiritual narcissism. - 10 Warning Signs of a Spiritual Narcissist

 

[Behold]

LOL. Nice theatrics and fluffery.

Its not fluffery to deny God's Grace by trying to replace it with Hyper Calvinism.
So, Dont do that, episkopos.
Dont teach hyper-Calvinism TULIP nonsense to real believers.

 

[Episkopos]

Its not fluffery to deny God's Grace by trying to replace it with Hyper Calvinism.
So, Dont do that, episkopos.
Dont teach hyper-Calvinism TULIP nonsense to real believers.

If you actually read the thread rather than react in your flesh you would see that I am speaking against hyper-grace and Calvinism.

That extreme doctrine has a partial truth...as all lies do.

God indeed will start us on our spiritual journey. He will call and equip and anoint us. And then He will see what we will do with this.

Will we become proud , being puffed up as a know-it-all who looks down on others?

Or will we humble ourselves in realization that we can never be more than unprofitable servants who depend on God and His Spirit.

So then the fear of the Lord and humility are the hallmarks of wisdom.

No one can boast of anything. We are to glory in that which makes us nothing...so that God can alone be exalted.

 

[Behold]

God indeed will start us on our spiritual journey. He will call and equip and anoint us.?

.

Are you teaching that "Soverign Grace" is God causing someone to get saved or find faith?
That God causes this against their will, as Calvin teaches?
"God ordains you to eternal life and causes it, forces it, makes you do it".
Forces you to have faith?
Are you teaching this lie of Hyper Calvinism?