Sovereign Grace

[Episkopos]

People tend to take things too far....to miss the bigger picture...and this especially when there is a self-interested motive.

I would like to bring some clarity to the doctrine of sovereign (or irresistible) grace. This has become the heresy of our time...making God into a garbage can of service to man and his spoiled fallen nature. Akin to a janitor following and sweeping up the droppings of an elephant.

So first an excerpt from a site that promotes this over-emphasis...then a bringing into proper balance what has been warped away from the truth...making it into a lie.

Sovereign grace – What is it?
Sovereign grace, also known as irresistible grace, is the teaching that God's grace will eventually save every person God has sovereignly appointed for salvation regardless of his or her resistance to the gospel message. This doctrine is often associated with Calvinism or Reformed Theology, though it is not limited to these theological systems.

Two primary passages in the New Testament are used as the basis for the teaching of sovereign grace. First, Romans 8:29-30 includes a strong foundation for the doctrine, stating, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." This progression of predestined/called/justified/glorified covers the entire spectrum from God's initial choice or election to a person's eternal glorification with Christ.


Of course God will use His sovereign power (grace) to bring us to repentance and faith...to get us into the race of faith. So this is a first step initiated by God. God is the initiator. God holds the initiative. he uses an irresistible grace at the beginning of the spiritual walk. But at one point God will allow us to go the way we want to. He exposes us to the lies of the devil to see what we will do. Are we like Job? Do we resist the lies of the devil? Or do we adopt those lies in a self-interested warping of the truth. Are we in this for ourselves or for God?

Sp then the initiative is NOT passed over to people to do with grace as they see fit. God does NOT become our servant. grace is towards God's design...His will...not our self-interested will.

Now that should be obvious for anyone who knows God or the bible.

God is patient but He will not strive with man forever. God's salvation is in the end conditional...not unconditional.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Why did God limit the years of our lives on Earth? Once a good man has proven His value to God there is no need to prolong the life of men who will increase evil more and more. We do enough damage already in the short time we have. And a shorter life should bring in the fear of the Lord...seeing our days are numbered.

 

[Episkopos]

To whom much is given MORE is required.

We may have begun our Christian walks with grace and mercy. But truth must also make it's acquaintance to us. How will we accept the truth? Will we, as so many, refuse the truth in favour of more mercy?

Now grace is the power to do God's will. Mercy is God's way of patiently winning us over to His ways.

But what if grace spoils us? Grace is deceitful after all.

Is. 26:10 Though the wicked is shown favor, He does not learn righteousness; He deals unjustly in the land of uprightness, And does not perceive the majesty of the LORD.

Or do we think that God's grace is only shown to they who are worthy of God? The kingdom of God is like a net that catches all kinds of people...to be sorted out later. Making a permanently assured salvation doctrine out of being caught in God's net of mercy and grace is the very pinnacle of foolishness. God is also righteous...and He is very demanding in His holiness.

The righteousness and mercy of God is shown to ALL men. What we do with it..whether we bear a righteous fruit or not...depends on what we are and what we allow ourselves to be. God gives gifts to men...but what we do with that is up to us.

So then God gives grace and causes a spiritual birth to people who will NOT remain acceptable to God. God is literally making vessels of wrath by grace...as well as vessels of mercy. Both vessels of honour AND dishonour. We still have choice...we still have to bear fruit. Our salvation is always conditional. And we only keep receiving grace IF we remain humble. But many will become spoiled and high-minded...railing in their assumption of assurance. Akin to a child sticking out his tongue at others as he hides in his mother's skirts.

If our man-made doctrines cause us to become smug and spoiled...then God will surely resist us...even as we claim grace for ourselves. God resists the proud. And His wrath is on they who despise the truth and attack holiness and righteousness in others. Judge not lest you be also judged.

I have found that the unconditional grace folk are the very LEAST graceful of all people. They lack love when they are supposed to be filled with love. (keep watching the thread)

So they have forgotten from whence they have come...if they ever really were anything other than a fallen person. But being lifted up in acceptance, mercy and favour does terrible things to the human soul

Hence the need of the cross of Christ to do it's work of breaking the outer man in order to let Christ break out into a glorious witness of His resurrected life.

Look for the love.

 

[Nancy]

People tend to take things too far....to miss the bigger picture...and this especially when there is a self-interested motive.

I would like to bring some clarity to the doctrine of sovereign (or irresistible) grace. This has become the heresy of our time...making God into a garbage can of service to man and his spoiled fallen nature. Akin to a janitor following and sweeping up the droppings of an elephant.

So first an excerpt from a site that promotes this over-emphasis...then a bringing into proper balance what has been warped away from the truth...making it into a lie.

Sovereign grace – What is it?
Sovereign grace, also known as irresistible grace, is the teaching that God's grace will eventually save every person God has sovereignly appointed for salvation regardless of his or her resistance to the gospel message. This doctrine is often associated with Calvinism or Reformed Theology, though it is not limited to these theological systems.

Two primary passages in the New Testament are used as the basis for the teaching of sovereign grace. First, Romans 8:29-30 includes a strong foundation for the doctrine, stating, "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." This progression of predestined/called/justified/glorified covers the entire spectrum from God's initial choice or election to a person's eternal glorification with Christ.


Of course God will use His sovereign power (grace) to bring us to repentance and faith...to get us into the race of faith. So this is a first step initiated by God. God is the initiator. God holds the initiative. he uses an irresistible grace at the beginning of the spiritual walk. But at one point God will allow us to go the way we want to. He exposes us to the lies of the devil to see what we will do. Are we like Job? Do we resist the lies of the devil? Or do we adopt those lies in a self-interested warping of the truth. Are we in this for ourselves or for God?

Sp then the initiative is NOT passed over to people to do with grace as they see fit. God does NOT become our servant. grace is towards God's design...His will...not our self-interested will.

Now that should be obvious for anyone who knows God or the bible.

God is patient but He will not strive with man forever. God's salvation is in the end conditional...not unconditional.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Why did God limit the years of our lives on Earth? Once a good man has proven His value to God there is no need to prolong the life of men who will increase evil more and more. We do enough damage already in the short time we have. And a shorter life should bring in the fear of the Lord...seeing our days are numbered.

Good morning Epi,
Concerning your last paragraph. I've often wondered why God would keep evil people alive so long and have decided that perhaps it's because He will use them for His purposes too (Pharaoh?)

 

[Episkopos]

Good morning Epi,
Concerning your last paragraph. I've often wondered why God would keep evil people alive so long and have decided that perhaps it's because He will use them for His purposes too (Pharaoh?)

Amen Nancy. He allows Christians to also be the worst of people...enemies of the truth and the cross. And these will have begun with favour, grace and mercy. But they are destined for a terrible end.

All of God's ways are righteous and balanced. So then people know that heretics exist and abound...but how many are really not seeing themselves in that? Vessels of honour AND of shame. And we are the ones who decide...but the kingdom is upside down....so then the proud will claim they are humble...and the humble will claim to be proud.

God's ways are past finding out. He will fool the foolish ones. But He helps the humble and seeking ones.

 

[Nancy]

Amen Nancy. He allows Christians to also be the worst of people...enemies of the truth and the cross. And these will have begun with favour, grace and mercy. But they are destined for a terrible end.

All of God's ways are righteous and balanced. So then people know that heretics exist and abound...but how many are really not seeing themselves in that? Vessels of honour AND of shame. And we are the ones who decide...but the kingdom is upside down....so then the proud will claim they are humble...and the humble will claim to be proud.

God's ways are past finding out. He will fool the foolish ones. But He helps the humble and seeking ones.

Nothing gets past Him, for sure. Most all Christians I know, personally have no clue what the vessels of honor and dishonor are about. Some look at me weird if I bring it up as, they have never read or heard of it...I'll say one thing, I'd much rather humble myself than have God do it for me

 

[amadeus]

God is patient but He will not strive with man forever. God's salvation is in the end conditional...not unconditional.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Why did God limit the years of our lives on Earth? Once a good man has proven His value to God there is no need to prolong the life of men who will increase evil more and more. We do enough damage already in the short time we have. And a shorter life should bring in the fear of the Lord...seeing our days are numbered.

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God." Acts 20:24

"For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." II Tim 4:6-8

 

[amadeus]

So then shall we fill our bellies with that which tastes good to our carnal selves, presuming that all of the promises of God are ours because we opened our mouth a while back to praise Him and say sincerely that we believed on Him? With that belief was there no promise on our part to be kept so that He would give to us His promises?

Who is the servant, God or man? What do we seek, God or mammon? Some people really do not know the difference as they name and claim a reward with no return at all from the investment God has made in them. What has He invested in those who come to Him believing?

"Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed." John 6:26-27

What is the reward for those who don't know or disregard the difference between the bread made from wheat or barley and the Bread of Life? Are they to be blessed without laboring during the time God provided to each of them for the "meat which endureth unto everlasting life"?

God blessed his servants entrusting them with them with His talents... as we might say, with His grace... Consider the one who was given one such talent:

"And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strowed:
Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath" Matt 25:25-29

May not the one who sits back in his assurance of God's reward find himself in delusion because he loved himself and the rewards received or expected more than Truth? What is the lie which they believe? Where is God's grace, His invested talent? Is it well hidden, waiting for a reward which will never come!

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." II Thess 2:10-12

 

[Hidden In Him]

I would like to bring some clarity to the doctrine of sovereign (or irresistible) grace. This has become the heresy of our time...making God into a garbage can of service to man and his spoiled fallen nature. Akin to a janitor following and sweeping up the droppings of an elephant.

Mincing words again, are we? LoL!

Enjoyed your post. Have a blessed day.

 

[Episkopos]

May we beware of creating a god in our own image. A god that appeases our flesh....that is partisan to us the way our ego is. A god we have made from our ego. A god who thinks like us and never disagrees with us. A god that is always on our side. A god that protects us while condemning others. A god that allows us to do our thing. A god that we have in our own pocket.

How many of the modern doctrines are fashioned with the above in mind?

It's easy to understand why people would choose grace for themselves over judgment. Self-preservation. But is God pleased when we seek to save ourselves? What about being a self-less living sacrifice? And to what? Ourselves?

The devil has always used the bible to concoct doctrines that snare they who are looking to believe in God. He has an easy time of it since so few love the truth and seek for balance. We are willing to go all out for our ideas. Our self-interest makes us strong in ourselves. But grace only takes effect when we are weak in ourselves.

Have we not been fooled by religious salesmen who are peddling a product of assurance of salvation. Do we not equate ministry with assurance salesmen?

 

[marks]

Of course God will use His sovereign power (grace) to bring us to repentance and faith...to get us into the race of faith. So this is a first step initiated by God. God is the initiator. God holds the initiative. he uses an irresistible grace at the beginning of the spiritual walk.

I wasn't sure you thought this way, I appreciate that being clarified.

So then in your POV some are chosen by God to be put into the situation of either achieving eternal glory or suffering depending on what they do, and others, those not chosen, are simply burned up in the flames, ceasing to exist, this is correct?

Much love!

 

[marks]

But at one point God will allow us to go the way we want to. He exposes us to the lies of the devil to see what we will do. Are we like Job? Do we resist the lies of the devil? Or do we adopt those lies in a self-interested warping of the truth. Are we in this for ourselves or for God?

Something else I noticed here . . . you don't mean so that God could find out what we would do, is that correct? Or is that what you mean, I think what they call "open theism", that God can learn?

I don't think God needs to test us for His Own benefit, myself. I think He knows about us, even what we don't know. I think that He tests us to show us what we are.

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

I wasn't sure you thought this way, I appreciate that being clarified.

So then in your POV some are chosen by God to be put into the situation of either achieving eternal glory or suffering depending on what they do, and others, those not chosen, are simply burned up in the flames, ceasing to exist, this is correct?

Much love!

The bible describes 4 possibilities...for the actual studiers of the bible to discover...4 eternal destinies.

There are 2 resurrections...each with a good and bad outcome. There is first the resurrection and judgment the house of God...and then of the nations.

When a person is saved in the beginning they are delivered from a bad end...death...a condemnation WITH the world. The wages of sin is death. A ceasing to exist as you say.

But we are saved from the world and into a race as the household of God. That race makes us to pursue Christ to win Him and have Him formed in us. God first judges His own household. In that judgment there are both vessels of honour AND vessels of dishonour (shame). Outer darkness and an eternal wandering is reserved for they who misuse grace and God's mercy. Eternal glory of some kind awaits the faithful in Christ.

 

[Episkopos]

Something else I noticed here . . . you don't mean so that God could find out what we would do, is that correct? Or is that what you mean, I think what they call "open theism", that God can learn?

I don't think God needs to test us for His Own benefit, myself. I think He knows about us, even what we don't know. I think that He tests us to show us what we are.

Much love!

And the principalities. God is fair and righteous. If we are going to judge angels then they need to see that we are who we are supposed to be.

So then being a Christian is like being in an officer school.

If a person is not up to that...there is still being saved through humility and the fear of the Lord.

God is both severe (for saints)...AND merciful (for the righteous)

 

[marks]

And the principalities. God is fair and righteous. If we are going to judge angels then they need to see that we are who we are supposed to be.

So then being a Christian is like being in an officer school.

If a person is not up to that...there is still being saved through humility and the fear of the Lord.

God is both severe (for saints)...AND merciful (for the righteous)

So then God is proving to the angels that we are fit judges of them? So that they will submit themselves to our judgment?

Why do you suppose God finds the need to choose some for a salvation to glory and honor, and some a salvation to shame and torment? What I read in the Bible, the God that I've come to know, is wanting a family, and is putting His goodness into us, rather than trying to exclude some for failing to find enough goodness in them.

If Jesus came to seek those who were lost, this was just to send them back into a more lost condition?

That makes no sense to me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

When a person is saved in the beginning they are delivered from a bad end...death...a condemnation WITH the world. The wages of sin is death. A ceasing to exist as you say.

But you have them 'delivered' into a frightful future! Salvation? Not the way you make it sound, not to me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So then being a Christian is like being in an officer school.

If a person is not up to that...there is still being saved through humility and the fear of the Lord.

What do you mean here, "if a person is not up to that"?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The bible describes 4 possibilities...for the actual studiers of the bible to discover...4 eternal destinies.

These four destinies, this is, cessation of existence in the lake of fire for those never born again, and for those who have been born again, they may end up in the Eternal City as Saints, or on the new earth outside the city as the Faithful, or sent into outer darkness as Hypocrits, is this correct?

Something I've never been clear on is what separates in your POV the "saints" and the "faithful". Might you elaborate on that?

Much love!

 

[Episkopos]

These four destinies, this is, cessation of existence in the lake of fire for those never born again, and for those who have been born again, they may end up in the Eternal City as Saints, or on the new earth outside the city as the Faithful, or sent into outer darkness as Hypocrits, is this correct?

Something I've never been clear on is what separates in your POV the "saints" and the "faithful". Might you elaborate on that?

Much love!

Revelation 22:11
“He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.”

 

[Episkopos]

But you have them 'delivered' into a frightful future! Salvation? Not the way you make it sound, not to me.

Much love!

The question we should be asking ourselves is this....what are we doing with what God gave us? All the ones who perished in the wilderness were saved from Egypt. But God was not pleased with many of them.

Likewise He is not pleased with many of us.

 

[Episkopos]

What do you mean here, "if a person is not up to that"?

Much love!

Very few are cut out to be saints. Jesus said that many will try but few will be able to pass through that door and walk that narrow path.

Going into the reasons for that are both simple and complex...and too in depth for this thread.