Sovereign Grace

[amadeus]

LOL. Nice theatrics and fluffery. But your lack of experience with God is showing and telling. God indeed uses His power to bring men to repentance. Repentance is a gift as well as something a man can do. Faith is also a gift as well as something required of us. So this tendency of manufacturing your own ideas and theories gets in the way of any real spiritual understanding.

So you are underestimating God and His power.

it is also God that by His power crucifies us to the cross of Christ so that we might walk in Him

But God doesn't force us. We first surrender and cry out to Him...then He will perform His operation on they who call on Him from a pure heart.

When you become qualified in that regard you may also find out how true that is.

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
And now also the ax is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Matt 3:7-10

 

[Episkopos]

Are you teaching that "Soverign Grace" is God causing someone to get saved or find faith?
That God causes this against their will, as Calvin teaches?
"God ordains you to eternal life and causes it, forces it, makes you do it".
Forces you to have faith?
Are you teaching this lie of Hyper Calvinism?

Without the requisite reading skills...you may never know!

 

[Nancy]

Are you teaching that "Soverign Grace" is God causing someone to get saved or find faith?
That God causes this against their will, as Calvin teaches?
"God ordains you to eternal life and causes it, forces it, makes you do it".
Forces you to have faith?
Are you teaching this lie of Hyper Calvinism?

Behold,
I know Epi is NOT a Calvinist. The Holy Spirit indeed DOES convict the world of sin and righteousness and, since Jesus was lifted up He drew ALL men to Him, He did not "force" them, like Calvinists think. And that is NOT the "Irresistible Grace" (the "I" in T.U.L.I.P.) he Epi is talking about. Total different thing here...IMO

 

[JunChosen]

People tend to take things too far....to miss the bigger picture...
I would like to bring some clarity to the doctrine of sovereign (or irresistible) grace. This has become the heresy of our time...making God into a garbage can of service

I disagree. Rather it is the lack of knowledge of God that they miss the bigger picture.
The word "grace" actually means "love" in God's perspective. Let me demonstrate:

In John 11 we read about the grace/love of God in the Raising of Lazarus and how Jesus loved Mary, Martha, and Lazarus (verse 5).
As He arrived at the tomb, Jesus cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus come forth!" Can Lazarus hear the command to come forth since he has been dead four days? Of course not, but he did come forth! What had to have happened? Well, Jesus had to go into the tomb and give Lazarus life, ears to hear, eyes to see, and mouth to speak.

As Lazarus was physically dead, so are we spiritually dead.
As Lazarus was physically deaf, so are we spiritually deaf and cannot hear the Word of God.
As Lazarus was physically blind, so are we spiritually blind and cannot see the true Gospel.
As Lazarus was physically dumb so are we spiritual dumb and cannot speak the language of God

Now tell me what contribution did Lazarus make in the above illustration? NONE! So too we cannot contribute to our salvation because we are spiritually dead! A dead person has no capacity or power to add to his salvation!!!
Yet people clench their fists towards heaven and barks at God, "I am going to hell because you did not save me"!!! Scripture declares we are going to hell because we are SINNERS, and not because God damned us to hell.

Below is another example of what is grace.

John 3:16 is the most quoted verse in the world yet the most misunderstood also!
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

The word "so" can be translated "in this manner" or "thus." And the word "whosoever" must be qualified, and these are they that are saved that will only believe. The rest fall under Romans 3:10-11.

Therefore, John 3:16 can be rendered: "For God in this manner (so) loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that those who are the saved (whosoever) that believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The above examples therefore are my version of Grace, what is it?

Without God's intervention in our lives there will never be any salvation for mankind.

Romans 5:8 reads:
"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we re yet sinners, Christ died for us."

What a loving and gracious God I serve.

To God Be The Glory

 

[marks]

Behold,
I know Epi is NOT a Calvinist. The Holy Spirit indeed DOES convict the world of sin and righteousness and, since Jesus was lifted up He drew ALL men to Him, He did not "force" them, like Calvinists think. And that is NOT the "Irresistible Grace" (the "I" in T.U.L.I.P.) he Epi is talking about. Total different thing here...IMO

God is the initiator. God holds the initiative. he uses an irresistible grace at the beginning of the spiritual walk.

?

 

[Nancy]

?

"...at the beginning of the spiritual walk" Yes, at the "beginning" of our walk, not our being "called initially". The Holy Spirit calls, convicts and appeals to us through God's word, we accept and receive or we don't. And, in my experience God HAS held back some once I became grounded in my faith...He will test us soon afterword. And He will continue to test our faith.
In Him
nancy

 

[marks]

"...at the beginning of the spiritual walk" Yes, at the "beginning" of our walk, not our being "called initially". The Holy Spirit calls, convicts and appeals to us through God's word. And, in my experience God HAS held back some once I became grounded in my faith...He will test us soon afterword. And He will continue to test our faith.
In Him
nancy

I'm looking at the part that we are selected to "enter the race" by God's Own initiative, a sovereign choice, as I understand what he means, to be born again so as to have a chance at being with God after we die.

Of course God will use His sovereign power (grace) to bring us to repentance and faith...to get us into the race of faith. So this is a first step initiated by God. God is the initiator. God holds the initiative. he uses an irresistible grace at the beginning of the spiritual walk. But at one point God will allow us to go the way we want to. He exposes us to the lies of the devil to see what we will do. Are we like Job? Do we resist the lies of the devil? Or do we adopt those lies in a self-interested warping of the truth. Are we in this for ourselves or for God?

Sp then the initiative is NOT passed over to people to do with grace as they see fit. God does NOT become our servant. grace is towards God's design...His will...not our self-interested will.

So some are chosen solely by God to repent and believe, and others are not, and that's that, isn't that what is being said here?

I realize that this is different from the Calvinist doctrine, as Episkopos doesn't consider being born again to be a salvation, only the opportunity to become 'saved' if we can ___________, something, I've never received a clear answer what he thinks.

Much love!

 

[mjrhealth]

@Episkopos So you are telling me that you have got all this by studying, because and man who can say

But what if grace spoils us? Grace is deceitful after all.

Has no idea of who God or Jesus are, if grace is deceitful that makes God and Jesus like the devil, is he not the deceiver, where does grace come from??

Joh_1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Do you really think God can run out of grace, is HE like a man as so many make Him out to be.

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos So you are telling me that you have got all this by studying, because and man who can say



Has no idea of who God or Jesus are, if grace is deceitful that makes God and Jesus like the devil, is he not the deceiver, where does grace come from??

Joh_1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Do you really think God can run out of grace, is HE like a man as so many make Him out to be.

It's not that God runs out of grace....that's not why grace is deceitful...but because of how we take it and what we do with it. People will take advantage of God's grace and mercy to try getting away with sin. Some people will consider themselves as the final destination of all mercy and grace and not be willing to pass it on to others. Instead of being conduits for God's love, mercy and truth these become as a black hole...sucking all the light into themselves. These do not change or transform from being selfish and self-centered. They seek a place of immunity from prosecution for being essentially just hardened whitewashed sinners.

So for such God's seeming weakness and vulnerability is taken wrongly as God going soft on sin.


This is why having understanding is so important. When you are presented with the deeper issues concerning the presentation of the truth to the fallen man with the mysteries and paradoxes involved....it would seem "natural" to react in the flesh. We see that kind of carnal reaction with Nicodemus when he responds to having to be born again with..."shall I re-enter my mother's womb?"

So for the carnal mind to react against the truth...biblical truth...is par for the course. But the fear of the Lord and humility should have it's work...to bring a person into a greater understanding of oneself in particular as well as human nature in general.

Prov. 31: 30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that fears the Lord, she shall be praised.

 

[mjrhealth]

So for the carnal mind to react against the truth...biblical truth..

Have you ever considered Jesus teh one who is teh truth, you should try Him one day, you disagree with Him on so many things. Grace was given to man, because he could not save himself, and here you are taking it away. When we stand before Jesus,and God teh only reason why any man will enter in, is because of Grace, not one man will have reason to boast, not a single one. We are made "good enough", because of teh works Christ did, and because of His righteousness, not because of anything we ever did or could do.

 

[Episkopos]

Have you ever considered Jesus teh one who is teh truth, you should try Him one day, you disagree with Him on so many things. Grace was given to man, because he could not save himself, and here you are taking it away. When we stand before Jesus,and God teh only reason why any man will enter in, is because of Grace, not one man will have reason to boast, not a single one. We are made "good enough", because of teh works Christ did, and because of His righteousness, not because of anything we ever did or could do.

That's just not biblical. It is your emotions speaking from an indoctrination. But it is not based in truth. We will ALL be judged ONLY for what we have done with what we have been given.

That's it.

Grace puts us into a different category...away from the world. But you will never seem to comprehend that God's judgment is harder on His own people than on the world. So if you think you can shelter from the consequences of sin by being a Christian you are in for a world of disappointment.

You need to understand the stakes.

To whom much is given MORE is required.

We will be judged according to our works. (Not our beliefs and religious opinions)

 

[JunChosen]

We will ALL be judged ONLY for what we have done with what we have been given.

And those are?
You have taken up the name Episkopos. Are you an elder that have been laid hands upon by the presbyter or a self proclaimed elder?

Did you know that an elder will receive a harsher punishment by teaching falsely? Yet you accuse Calvin of heresy?

Can you expound for us Luke 12:48?

To God Be The Glory

 

[Episkopos]

And those are?
You have taken up the name Episkopos. Are you an elder that have been laid hands upon by the presbyter or a self proclaimed elder?

Did you know that an elder will receive a harsher punishment by teaching falsely? Yet you accuse Calvin of heresy?

Can you expound for us Luke 12:48?

To God Be The Glory

Both Calvin and Luther are not just guilty of heresy but also of murder. These were just as Paul was..before his conversion. They were zealous religious men like Paul BEFORE His encounter with Christ. Many false prophets have arisen to deceive many and for some strange reason...these are accepted as orthodox. Just as Jesus said they would be.


Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

I think your reasoning is exactly backwards. You are in way over your head. Fear God and humble yourself. Judge yourself before thinking you understand anything. Get to know your own delusional ways first.

 

[JunChosen]

I think your reasoning is exactly backwards. You are in way over your head. Fear God and humble yourself. Judge yourself before thinking you understand anything. Get to know your own delusional ways first.

So only an Elder can understand Scripture and not a simple layman? You sound like you belong to a church that believes their church is the ground and pillar of truth, instead of Jesus who claims to be the way, the Truth, and the life . I'd like to remind you that Jesus chose (except Paul) the unlearned to be His apostles!

Why do you evade my simple questions, or did you not understand them? If I wanted you to speak! about Calvin and Luther, I would have asked!

I'm not familiar with the works of Calvin and Luther but as I understand it Calvin, Luther, Swingly, and Knox were the pioneers who correctly explained the Doctrine of Salvation.

Now, please answer the questions posted in Post #72. I will understand if you would rather still not answer for fear of being exposed, otherwise what are your reasons?

To God Be The Glory

 

[marks]

@Episkopos So you are telling me that you have got all this by studying, because and man who can say

Has no idea of who God or Jesus are, if grace is deceitful that makes God and Jesus like the devil, is he not the deceiver, where does grace come from??

Joh_1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Do you really think God can run out of grace, is HE like a man as so many make Him out to be.

Isn't it in Islam that they call God the 'greatest deceiver'?

That sentence jumped out to me too.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Prov. 31: 30 Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that fears the Lord, she shall be praised.

That's not God's grace being deceiptful though.

These do not change or transform from being selfish and self-centered. They seek a place of immunity from prosecution for being essentially just hardened whitewashed sinners.

This doesn't sound like the recipient of grace.

What is God's intent in giving grace to people?

Much love!

 

[marks]

We will ALL be judged ONLY for what we have done with what we have been given.

That's it.

That's true, but that is most certainly not "it".

If you are His child, counted among the living, the real recipient of His grace, in giving Christ Jesus to us, if you are His child you will live forever with Him, According to the Bible. And if you are not, you remain dead, forever separated from the Creator.

And each will be judged for their works. But that is not "it".

Much love!

 

[john t]

Are you proposing an unlimited grace?

Sorry, but it does not work that way.

In post 22 you stated:

Grace is only sovereign in that it is the power of God over sin. So then the ONLY sovereignty of grace is that of a victory over sin.

Therefore, it is YOUR JOB not mine to define it. You are asking me to "define the opposite of limited grace" . I also prefer that you give a Bible-based definition. Anecdotal comments have no authority such as we find in the Bible.

Where do you get that from the bible? We can fall from grace and fail grace according to the bible. We can bury our talent and offend God and the spirit of grace.

Again it is your job to define hopefully from the Bible these terms:

1. falling from grace
2. the spirit of grace

Otherwise you are simply making nice-sounding stuff up that cannot be found in Scripture

So you are the one who needs to back up a preposterous claim.

No, once again the burden of proof is on you. You make stuff up, and I question its source. It is a simple CFR. You cannot shift the burden of proof onto others for the stuff you create.

Salvation is ALWAYS conditional...otherwise grace is unlimited for all men.

Jesus said in John 3, "You must be born from above." That is the only condition mentioned, and since the act of being born from above comes from God, not humans, it is He only who save; only God can limit or expand grace to those who who are saved.

Do you realize that judgment begins at the house of God?

Quite the irrelevant comment.

Grace is the power to walk as Jesus walked.

Scripture, please.

Do you enter into that grace? It is by faith. Do you have the faith to walk as Jesus walked? What is stopping you from such a great grace?

You also need to find proof from the Bible that God's grace is dependent upon human action or non-action

But I think you are looking for a life that is without any responsibility. No such thing exists. The true God holds you accountable for every word and every action.....even every thought.

You are projecting onto me something totally irrelevant to this discussion.

So you have very much strayed from any kind of biblical thinking if you think that grace means God will go easy on you.

So you are now doubting my salvation? You have no basis to say such a horrid thing.

Do you understand mercy and truth and that these are not the same?

That is called a red herring. The discussion remains on grace, not something else.

I don't know your experience level but just ask that you do more research before you throw out sound reasoning. Many things of the kingdom can be compared to things in this world. Check out the parables of Jesus.

Gratuitous insult noted. While it is true that you do not know my "experience level" (another ambiguous, ill defined term) nevertheless you scold me, and condemn me saying that I "throw out sound reasoning".

This thread is not about me, and I do resent it when people seek to judge me for spurious reasons.

 

[Episkopos]

Sorry, but it does not work that way.

In post 22 you stated:


Therefore, it is YOUR JOB not mine to define it. You are asking me to "define the opposite of limited grace" . I also prefer that you give a Bible-based definition. Anecdotal comments have no authority such as we find in the Bible.



Again it is your job to define hopefully from the Bible these terms:

1. falling from grace
2. the spirit of grace

Otherwise you are simply making nice-sounding stuff up that cannot be found in Scripture



No, once again the burden of proof is on you. You make stuff up, and I question its source. It is a simple CFR. You cannot shift the burden of proof onto others for the stuff you create.



Jesus said in John 3, "You must be born from above." That is the only condition mentioned, and since the act of being born from above comes from God, not humans, it is He only who save; only God can limit or expand grace to those who who are saved.


Quite the irrelevant comment.



Scripture, please.


You also need to find proof from the Bible that God's grace is dependent upon human action or non-action



You are projecting onto me something totally irrelevant to this discussion.



So you are now doubting my salvation? You have no basis to say such a horrid thing.



That is called a red herring. The discussion remains on grace, not something else.



Gratuitous insult noted. While it is true that you do not know my "experience level" (another ambiguous, ill defined term) nevertheless you scold me, and condemn me saying that I "throw out sound reasoning".

This thread is not about me, and I do resent it when people seek to judge me for spurious reasons.

I am in no way obliged to try to teach you from the beginning all these basic bible teachings in the scope of this thread. It's too much. Are you trying to tie me up due to what you can't find in the bible for yourself? Check out rather all the threads I have done for the last 9 years or so. I have done the work elsewhere.

If you have ONE specific point that you have actually researched and prayed about...I can engage on that. But when there is NOTHING yet to go on but obfuscations...it's a waste of time. I don't know if you are really a seeker or just a religious critic with nothing to contribute but religious posturings. Show some courtesy. Focus...don't just spew out disagreements.

 

[JunChosen]

Many false prophets have arisen to deceive many and for some strange reason...these are accepted as orthodox. Just as Jesus said they would be.

And you are at the top of the list!

To borrow your own words: "Judge yourself before thinking you understand anything. Get to know your own delusional ways first."

And I say: "What? came the word out from you? or came it unto you only?
If any man think himself to be a prophet (or elder), or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant."

Sounds like the above describes you to a tee!

To God Be The Glory