The Decoy Gospel

[Episkopos]

The idea of a "positional" holiness IS the hallmark of a decoy gospel. Where does it come from? Where does such an idea come from? Well, the human imagination must try to understand spiritual things. So a philosophical solution is sought for.

But where in the bible do we see a positional anything?

It is fully man-made.

And because it doesn't require the power of the cross...it is embraced by the multitudes. But being part of the multitudes has never been a safe or wise place to be with God.

So really we are seeing the refusal of the offense of the cross. The cost is just too much for the multitudes. The way to eternal life is narrow and difficult. But most people put no faith in Jesus' words...they just seek to exploit His sacrifice and leave His words behind.

The truth is that a person can walk as Jesus walked by being in heaven AND earth simultaneously in the Spirit. We become a conduit of God's presence on earth...a light in the world. A light shining in darkness.

But people prefer a religious philosophy to the privilege of knowing God.

 

[mailmandan]

Name one person in all of history that taught this besides ignorant people that made up "sinless perfection" as a strawman and have no idea of what they are talking about!

Do you believe you are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time?

Was Jesus saying, "Go and sin all the sin you want besides adultery"?

Straw man argument.

Do you believe that Jesus is a liar, and commands us to "be" holy as He (God) is holy? If God commands impossibilities, then when we read Scripture, what are we allowed to dismiss as relevant and real?

Of course Jesus commands us to be holy as God is holy. Jesus cannot compromise His perfect, holy standard and that is the goal to strive for. Why should He lower the bar? So you truly believe that God expects all believers to be sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time? Does that describe you?

You disbelieve Jesus and Matt. 5:48, and now you dismiss the plain words of Scripture and the Holy Spirit in Hebrews. All because you have a strawman to attack?

I don't dismiss Matthew 5:48. Once again, Jesus cannot compromise His perfect, holy standard and that is the goal to strive for.

Our sanctification is God's will. Paul writes that God will sanctify you wholly... not partially or incomplete. If you have a jar of arsenic, and you only dilute it half-way, you would be a fool if you said it was good to drink! Half-holy is no more pleasing to a Holy God than no holiness.

I already explained this in post #110 and #114.

We can read that God wants us to be holy NOW! That sanctification happens in our lifetime. If that were not so, why would the Bible NEVER have sanctification in the future tense? There is no sanctification after this life.

There is final sanctification or "glorification" (future tense) after this life. There are 3 tenses to salvation that often get confused by certain people. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

"Such were some of you;" This is no fictional positional state, but a reality. According to the Bible, there is as described here, and innitial sanctification, but Paul urges believers to be sanctified wholly.

Such were some of you "past tense" and are no longer unrighteous who practice such sins, but are righteous, positionally in Christ. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21)

Is salvation a matter of endless and impossible "progressiveness"? The Bible shows salvation in the past, present and future tenses. Yet, sanctification is NEVER in the future tense; there is no being made holy in reality after death. Where the tree falls, there shall it lie.

See the 3 tenses to salvation above.

Progressive holiness has no purpose unless it actually leads to completion. The same can be said where the Bible puts our salvation off in the future tense. Do you "grow" into salvation? If not, then you have no Biblical argument that people "grow into" sanctification.

Believers grow during the sanctification process. Regardless of whether a believer is a babe in Christ or fully mature in Christ, salvation is by grace through faith and is not based on the merits of our growth/performance/works.

 

[Episkopos]

The decoy gospel denies perfection IN Christ. To set up the decoy the victim will state that you think YOU'RE perfect and deflect away the perfection from Christ in order to deny it...by strawmaning that perfection away from Christ.

There is also a heresy that states that we are already perfect "positionally" even as we sin. And this is a very grievous heresy.

Anything but the truth will be believed by most people.

The truth is that grace kicks in when we (the outer nature) are on the cross. THEN the inner man can be strengthened by Christ in us so as to walk in newness of life.

So we really do walk as Jesus in the world (not positionally) as we abide in Him.

 

[Candidus]

Do you believe you are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time?

Straw man argument.

You have yet to tell me "who" in all of history, besides those that love sin more than God have ever suggested that!

Until then, it is a strawman.

 

[Candidus]

I don't dismiss Matthew 5:48. Once again, Jesus cannot compromise His perfect, holy standard and that is the goal to strive for.

Notice that Jesus never said to "try" or "strive" for holiness. He said "Be ye holy," not "progressively "try" to be holy.

There is final sanctification or "glorification" (future tense) after this life.

There is not bit of Biblical justification for such a teaching. It is never stated in Scripture. God never, through the inspiration of Scripture, ever offered sanctification anywhere but in this life. There is no future tense sanctification in Scripture. Glorification is not Sanctification.

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Rev. 22:11.

You are what you are when you die. There is no Protestant Purgatory.

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Rev. 22:12.

Notice, the reward is not based upon any imaginary "positional holiness" because either you are holy when you get there, or you remain unjust and filthy still.

Such were some of you "past tense" and are no longer unrighteous who practice such sins, but are righteous, positionally in Christ. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21).

They are no longer sinning, and are not "positionally holy," but holy in reality.

"By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world." 1 Jn. 4:17.

Believers grow during the sanctification process.

And Believers grow into being saved too according to your use of Scripture.

 

[Truman]

Holiness is not the basis for our calling; it is the result of our calling. Glorification is not sanctification nor is justification. Full salvation does not include positional sanctification. We are 3-part beings, spirit, soul (mind, will, emotion), and body. Salvation is:
Justification: When we accept Christ as Lord and Savior, we are found innocent in God's court of His law. Our spirit is reborn of incorruptible seed. This means that when we sin, it is not our spirit doing it. The physical body isn't unclean, so this leaves the soul.
Sanctification: Here is where we join in with the Holy Spirit and His work in us. This process is not instant and does not re-crucify Christ.
At the center of our soul is our heart. "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9 NIV Through the death and resurrection process of the daily cross, the heart is circumcised. The end result is that we are more sensitive to God and He can move through us more freely.
Instant sanctification is not part of the atonement because it is an invented phrase and devoid of fact.
Glorification: When Christ returns and we are caught up in the clouds with Him, we will see Him and this will somehow give us new bodies. We are 3-part beings created in the image of a 3-part God. Body, soul, and spirit; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification; He who was, He who is, He who is to come. " To me, this is all part of my worship of Yahweh. Shalom

 

[CharismaticLady]

People put a great emphasis on correct belief. Are we going to be judged by filling out a questionnaire that tests our beliefs? Or will we be judged by what we thought, spoke and acted upon? So we will be judged by our behaviour.

So what do our beliefs produce in us? What does our doctrine make us do. That's the crucial part.

We know in part...but a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. A little favour can also be deceitful.

We will be judged actually AGAINST what we know...and AGAINST the grace we have received.

To whom much is given more is required.

Yes, Philippians 3:16

 

[CharismaticLady]

Spiritual gifts?

Great care must be taken to avoid becoming a religious soul...where we are looking too hard for prophetic messages in the alphabet soup of our daily lives. The pagan religions did this...looking for signs. Interpreting the flight of birds. To be a prophet one must avoid the power of the soul completely...avoid trying to interpret things through the soul....instead being a vessel that is available for the spirit to to be impressed with something from God free from all soulish manipulations.

The most precious gift is hearing God's voice, asking Him questions James 1:5, and hearing the absolute Truth.

 

[mailmandan]

You have yet to tell me "who" in all of history, besides those that love sin more than God have ever suggested that!

Until then, it is a strawman.

It’s a simple direct question. Do you believe that you are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time? YES or NO?

 

[CharismaticLady]

I took this from another site...

Narcigesis

"Narcissistic Eisegesis (“Narcigesis”) = Forcing the Bible to mean something you already want it to mean by superimposing yourself into the meaning of the passage, rather than interpreting Scripture for what it means about God, and letting the Scripture simply speak for itself. Conversely, seeking to understand Scripture for what it reveals about God is known as Exegesis, and is also sometimes referred to as the “Literal” or “Grammatical-Historical” approach to interpreting Scripture."

Human Wisdom And Eloquent Speechcraft.

"When we use the purpose driven-Bible strip mine model we simply have left His plan. We are no longer hearing about the story of Jesus Christ. We are now hearing human wisdom and eloquent speechcraft. It might tickle the ears. It might soothe the soul. It cannot however save anyone. It cannot convey any spiritual power whatsoever. The proper handling of the Word of God is known as exegesis. This is the proper interpretation and handling of Scripture. Exegesis allows God to speak through His Word -- what a novel concept! Then you hear the entire counsel of the Lord. Sometimes the message will be all about His love and other times it will be all about the need to repent and His wrath. When proper exegesis is implemented then we hear the Bible for what it was designed to be -- a story about Jesus Christ. When we start changing the story to use it for our lives and interjecting ourselves into the text we are engaging in what is known as "narcigesis"; which is reading oneself into the Biblical text."

In the last few days, I saw a perfect example of this, by someone I never thought was being so duped, but discovered what he really believes and it is impossible to change one's beliefs, even by presenting Scripture, when they've already convinced themselves of a longtime-heretical belief, and find solace in like minds.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Notice that Jesus never said to "try" or "strive" for holiness. He said "Be ye holy," not "progressively "try" to be holy.



There is not bit of Biblical justification for such a teaching. It is never stated in Scripture. God never, through the inspiration of Scripture, ever offered sanctification anywhere but in this life. There is no future tense sanctification in Scripture. Glorification is not Sanctification.

"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Rev. 22:11.

You are what you are when you die. There is no Protestant Purgatory.

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Rev. 22:12.

Notice, the reward is not based upon any imaginary "positional holiness" because either you are holy when you get there, or you remain unjust and filthy still.



They are no longer sinning, and are not "positionally holy," but holy in reality.

"By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world." 1 Jn. 4:17.

And Believers grow into being saved too according to your use of Scripture.

Yes, and one of the key words in the heretical doctrines we are talking about is the word "covered" with regards to sin. Jesus "takes away" our sin nature so we do not commit them any longer.

 

[Enoch111]

Anything but the truth will be believed by most people.

All we see in your posts in Gnostic blather. Where are the Scriptures?

Here is a good example of your ignorance about the doctrine of justification by grace through faith:There is also a heresy that states that we are already perfect "positionally" even as we sin. And this is a very grievous heresy.

When someone calls God's truth "heresy" and "a very grievous heresy", then one can be sure that he is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

So what does the Bible say about justification by grace through faith? What is says is that GOD IMPUTES THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST to the one who believes on Him. Therefore we are indeed positionally perfect -- as righteous as Christ -- because the metaphorical and spiritual *robe* of His righteousness is placed over the sinner. I will post just one verse to confirm this: For He [God the Father] hath made Him [Christ] to be SIN for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor 5:21)

The meaning should be clear and plain to anyone who reads this. God is telling the saints that they are as righteous as God because they are in Christ. Now this may sound shocking and preposterous, but IT IS GOD'S TRUTH.

Now go and study the epistle to the Romans, before you commit any more blunders, and mislead people with your manufactured theology.

As to your canard about "even as we sin" that is a false accusation. Here is what the grace of God means to the believers (Titus 2:11-13):

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Did you get that? Justification is not a license to sin, as you have claimed.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Holiness is not the basis for our calling; it is the result of our calling. Glorification is not sanctification nor is justification. Full salvation does not include positional sanctification. We are 3-part beings, spirit, soul (mind, will, emotion), and body.

I agree.

Salvation is:
Justification: When we accept Christ as Lord and Savior, we are found innocent in God's court of His law. Our spirit is reborn of incorruptible seed. This means that when we sin, it is not our spirit doing it. The physical body isn't unclean, so this leaves the soul.

I agree with the first sentence. But you seem to assume we will willfully sin after that with our soul. That is impossible with the Holy Spirit given to us in our heart. That doesn't mean we won't sin as a baby Christian; it just means you will live up to the knowledge you already have arrived at, but are far from perfect. Philippians 3:16. We must keep growing in Truth - the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth.

Sanctification: Here is where we join in with the Holy Spirit and His work in us. This process is not instant and does not re-crucify Christ.
At the center of our soul is our heart. "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9 NIV Through the death and resurrection process of the daily cross, the heart is circumcised. The end result is that we are more sensitive to God and He can move through us more freely.
Instant sanctification is not part of the atonement because it is an invented phrase and devoid of fact.

We were sanctified when we were justified. They are back to back. That just means we are "set apart unto God." It is not a process. What IS the life-long process is being Glorified in mind and spirit by partaking of the divine nature. Becoming like Christ. Romans 8:29-30. 2 Peter 1:2-11.

Glorification: When Christ returns and we are caught up in the clouds with Him, we will see Him and this will somehow give us new bodies. We are 3-part beings created in the image of a 3-part God. Body, soul, and spirit; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification; He who was, He who is, He who is to come. " To me, this is all part of my worship of Yahweh. Shalom

At the resurrection of the dead is when our body takes on the same immortality that our mind and spirit already became.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Here is a good example of your ignorance about the doctrine of justification by grace through faith:There is also a heresy that states that we are already perfect "positionally" even as we sin. And this is a very grievous heresy.

When someone calls God's truth "heresy" and "a very grievous heresy", then one can be sure that he is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Wishful thinking, but the Truth is even more glorious than your heresy. We are free from sin, not free to sin as you believe your present and future sins are not imputed to you. What makes you think this is not a license to sin. You know that doesn't sound right, but that is exactly what that heretical doctrine means.

So what does the Bible say about justification by grace through faith? What is says is that GOD IMPUTES THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST to the one who believes on Him. Therefore we are indeed positionally perfect -- as righteous as Christ -- because the metaphorical and spiritual *robe* of His righteousness is placed over the sinner. I will post just one verse to confirm this: For He [God the Father] hath made Him [Christ] to be SIN for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor 5:21)

When we are born again, it is our sin nature that changes to a nature that does not sin. When we are justified when we come to Christ, all our PAST sins are done away - they are not imputed to us even though we are the ones who committed them. 2 Peter 1:9. The heresy of your belief is the faulty reasoning that your present and future sins are also not imputed. That is no where in scripture.

16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The meaning should be clear and plain to anyone who reads this. God is telling the saints that they are as righteous as God because they are in Christ. Now this may sound shocking and preposterous, but IT IS GOD'S TRUTH.

Now go and study the epistle to the Romans, before you commit any more blunders, and mislead people with your manufactured theology.

God's Truth is 1 John 3:9. And it is more than we placing ourselves in Christ - He must also be IN YOU. 1 John 3:23-24. Romans 8:9

 

[mjrhealth]

A salvation scheme that is an invention of man has no power over sin.

So you are saying that all that Christ did, has no power to save,backward yes. men have it backward, they all want to stand before God with chest puffed out filled with Pride. Yes it does have that power but only when we are 100% in Him, and I have yet to find anyone that is because we still live in this flesh. It is He that washes our garments clean not us or what we do.

None will boast not one.

 

[Heart2Soul]

If you cannot be saved without the accompanying fruit/works, and a fruitless faith is a dead faith that cannot save, then we are certainly justified by works as James says.

By what will a Christian be judged? Their faith? Or their works?

Our heart.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Holiness is not the basis for our calling; it is the result of our calling. Glorification is not sanctification nor is justification. Full salvation does not include positional sanctification. We are 3-part beings, spirit, soul (mind, will, emotion), and body. Salvation is:
Justification: When we accept Christ as Lord and Savior, we are found innocent in God's court of His law. Our spirit is reborn of incorruptible seed. This means that when we sin, it is not our spirit doing it. The physical body isn't unclean, so this leaves the soul.
Sanctification: Here is where we join in with the Holy Spirit and His work in us. This process is not instant and does not re-crucify Christ.
At the center of our soul is our heart. "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9 NIV Through the death and resurrection process of the daily cross, the heart is circumcised. The end result is that we are more sensitive to God and He can move through us more freely.
Instant sanctification is not part of the atonement because it is an invented phrase and devoid of fact.
Glorification: When Christ returns and we are caught up in the clouds with Him, we will see Him and this will somehow give us new bodies. We are 3-part beings created in the image of a 3-part God. Body, soul, and spirit; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification; He who was, He who is, He who is to come. " To me, this is all part of my worship of Yahweh. Shalom

Excellent post @Ron Coates ....You definitely have the Wisdom of God operating in your heart and mind!

 

[Enoch111]

Wishful thinking, but the Truth is even more glorious than your heresy.

You are the one with false doctrine on this forum. Thoroughly confused and seeking to confuse others. You claim to be sinlessly perfect, but the minute you mislead someone, you have already sinned.

 

[CharismaticLady]

So you are saying that all that Christ did, has no power to save,backward yes. men have it backward, they all want to stand before God with chest puffed out filled with Pride. Yes it does have that power but only when we are 100% in Him, and I have yet to find anyone that is because we still live in this flesh. It is He that washes our garments clean not us or what we do.

None will boast not one.

That is not what he is saying at all. But I've read what you believe, and frankly, it is exactly what he is talking about. We turn to Christ BECAUSE we know we are weak and can never be the required keeper of God's law of Love. Christ steps in to make us righteous, not to cover our sins while we have no power over them, but to give us His all-powerful Spirit to change our nature to one who loves righteousness, and does not sin. Jesus gives us His power, there is nothing we can do by ourselves. Understand?

 

[Episkopos]

That is not what he is saying at all. But I've read what you believe, and frankly, it is exactly what he is talking about. We turn to Christ BECAUSE we know we are weak and can never be the required keeper of God's law of Love. Christ steps in to make us righteous, not to cover our sins while we have no power over them, but to give us His all-powerful Spirit to change our nature to one who loves righteousness, and does not sin. Jesus gives us His power, there is nothing we can do by ourselves. Understand?

It's what they NEED to hear. They need to twist the truth in order to cover up their sins. So they point the finger at others...even as you try to help these understand the way of Christ which is a victory over sin.

So you are hated for loving people. The flesh is very bitter and hateful. No love there at all.

The flesh is about preserving itself. And since God's way is a salvation that is AWAY from the flesh...the flesh will react in a bid for self-preservation.

And this kind of understanding goes way over the head of they who have been superficially taught...in error...by superficial ministries that are after numbers and money.