The Decoy Gospel

[mailmandan]

When? What are you talking about? Judgment day? Only Christians will be judged by a questionnaire and all others will be judged by works? Why do you put yourself above being judged by your works? Are they evil? Are you hiding them?

Your continued straw man arguments make it virtually impossible to reason through the scriptures with you.

You are making dogmatic statements based on a religious ideology..without understanding.

You are the master of irony.

In truth there IS a salvation based on faith. But you deny the power of that salvation by claiming to be saved IN your sins. So that doesn't work.

Saved IN my sins? Suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness doesn't work for you. (1 John 1:8-10)

Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.

Romans 5:9. Much more then, being justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.

Ephesians 1:7. in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace..

You also claim to be only judged for a loss of rewards rather than a loss of ALL things..to be naked and shamed for eternity. So you are soft-pedaling holiness...all the time. Why? To justify sinfulness.

Where does the Bible say that believers/those who are born of God will suffer ALL things and not receive eternal life? Did Paul forget to mention that in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15? "Soft-pedaling holiness to justify sinfulness" remains your continued straw man argument and your spiritual narcissism causes you to see yourself as "holier than thou" while judging others as unholy.

 

[mailmandan]

What is a true believer?

A true believer is one who believes in/has faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6 etc..). Those who trust in works for salvation are not true believers.

Abiding in Christ is a miraculous provision of grace so as to walk as Jesus in this world...as an overcomer just as Jesus was.

So abiding in Christ (according to you) means to walk exactly as Jesus walked in this world (sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time?) Is that what you are implying by walking as Jesus walked in this world? Anything short of that (according to you) means you are not abiding in Christ? Jesus overcame the world. (John 16:33) How do we overcome the world? 1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

As He IS so are WE (if we abide in Christ) in this world.

The Greek word for "abide" is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. 1 John 4:15 - Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

He who says He abides in Him ought to walk even as He walked. That is the bible.

Jesus walked in truth and in love, yet Jesus was also without sin 100% of the time. Believers can walk in truth and in love, just as Jesus walked, yet that does not mean that believers are not sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, 100% of the time exactly as Jesus Christ was and is. That is the Bible.

Take away the emotional attachment to unbiblical indoctrination and believe the gospel.

Take away your and unbiblical indoctrination and believe the gospel. Salvation through sinless perfection is not the gospel.

 

[mailmandan]

Reb. 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

In regards to the church in Ephesus in Revelation 2, clearly the Lord wanted the church at Ephesus to repent, to change their minds regarding their works. "You have left your first love" (verse 4). "Repent and do the first works" (verse 5). Works of love no longer characterized the church as a whole in Ephesus. In verses 2 and 6, we see that the church in Ephesus was not totally displeasing to the Lord, yet hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans and standing up for doctrinal purity still cannot be a substitute for the depth of love it once had for the Lord. So what did the Lord mean when He spoke of removing the church's lamp stand if the church in Ephesus did not repent? The removal of the lampstand is clearly figurative language. This does not mean that individuals in the church at Ephesus will lose their salvation, but that the church there can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness, which apparently it did. Ephesus (located in modern day Turkey) is now dominated by Islam.

Rev. 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Apparently that church sickened the Lord. The members of this church see themselves as "rich" and self-sufficient, but the Lord sees them as "wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked." (verse 17) We should not be surprised and just as the church in Sardis, Jesus points out the lifeless state of that church - "..you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." This church may have had a name of being alive, but they were spiritually lifeless. In other words, the church was filled with unsaved people "nominal" Christians going through the motions of religion who needed to wake up and repent IN CONTRAST with a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Jesus in white.

Rom. 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

The Jews were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts as a whole, God removed His gracious hand from them and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.

Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers, as we see in 1 John 2:19.

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’

48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[mjrhealth]

Here is a twisted logic that ONLY very indoctrinated people can agree to.

---A sinner can enter into Christ and sin from there in whom is NO sin and who has never known sin nor ever will.----

Good luck with making that appeal to any honest person. Of course this post will be ignored or twisted in turn.
The only logical alternative that is honest of the true gospel is Gnosticism where there is a parallel universe where we are sinless even as we sin. Where we can raise the dead and walk on water even as we bury the dead and go swimming.

So then really there is NO alternative to the truth but the truth...which most believers have no faith in.

No and even you are denying it, all you see is sin, all the religious men see is sin, all the so called "perfect" christians see is everyone elses sin but deny their very own, you think that you are perfect and without sin, that is only because of Gods grace and teh works and righteousness of Christ, not one thing you or any man can do to change that, yet you sit here and deny grace make it out to be some new "law", and some other "obedience" thing that makes it all about you and your doing, and you are no better or worse than any other man, you and all those proud people will stand as equals amongst the saved, with not one iota of reason to boast. Men are proud boasters of self, it is that gospel that so many love to preach,

We are saved by grace, all men when they believe, because God knows men love to boast, you should be thankful that God puts your sin as far as teh east if from the west, because if it where not so, you would surely be in trouble, but I am sure if you think you are perfect you may ask Him to take account of all your sin, it wont be His choice but I am sure He will oblige you.

 

[mailmandan]

Well, every translation cannot be correct, can it! The NASB says, "and it becomes unfruitful" which agrees with the King James, and is correct.

The word use to "become" is gignomai, means to be made or formed; to become. Where the context is different, it can mean to bring to a completion. Here, in Matthew, the context is about "becoming" unfruitful. It is also in the present tense, which emphasizes the "becoming." The whole passage speaks about differing seeds on different grounds. The contrast is not make to be redundant, but to show the contrast and different results of what has already gone before. Because holding to the Greek produces a theological conflict for many, one can seek a biased "translation," yet they will not have an honest translation.

"Becomes unfruitful, produces no fruit, yields no fruit, brings no fruit to maturity" etc.. does not equate to - indeed bears fruit yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown, as seen with the seed that fell on "good soil."

The contrast is against all that has gone before, to show that some will have a genuine faith and produce much fruit. Jesus ends on a high note.

In the case of the thorny ground hearer, the plant was never firmly rooted and established in which it could produce fruit (even though there was motion and movement toward becoming an established plant) but it was choked out before reaching it's desired goal because the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, making it unfruitful. (Mark 4:19). The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person.

You cannot draw back into perdition when you never left perdition.

These Hebrews who drew back to perdition, but did not believe to the saving of the soul, drew back from the knowledge of the truth they received in their head, but not in their heart. (Hebrews 10:26) Hence, drew back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul.

To make such an argument that it is a warning to those that were never saved... is to make the comment unnecessary, unfruitful, and self-contradictory.

Only to those who do not understand and are only interested in accommodating their biased doctrine. In regards to Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is continuous action, a matter of practice. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a ongoing, willful, habitual action. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

 

[mailmandan]

No and even you are denying it, all you see is sin, all the religious men see is sin, all the so called "perfect" christians see is everyone elses sin but deny their very own, you think that you are perfect and without sin, that is only because of Gods grace and teh works and righteousness of Christ, not one thing you or any man can do to change that, yet you sit here and deny grace make it out to be some new "law", and some other "obedience" thing that makes it all about you and your doing, and you are no better or worse than any other man, you and all those proud people will stand as equals amongst the saved, with not one iota of reason to boast. Men are proud boasters of self, it is that gospel that so many love to preach,

We are saved by grace, all men when they believe, because God knows men love to boast, you should be thankful that God puts your sin as far as teh east if from the west, because if it where not so, you would surely be in trouble, but I am sure if you think you are perfect you may ask Him to take account of all your sin, it wont be His choice but I am sure He will oblige you.

Amen brother! Well said.

 

[mailmandan]

The bifurcation of "works of merit" and the "presence of works" is a false dichotomy.

Saved apart from the merit of works, yet authentic faith is not apart from the presence of works is not a false dichotomy. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

If someone does not repent and believe, they are not saved.

True. We must repent and believe the gospel in order to be saved.

While God precedes and gives the ability, it is impossible for God to force someone to repent against their will. The fact that the person is able to repent and believe is because of God working in and through them. It is an equal fact that this will never occur unless that person does not disbelieve and does not accept the ability to repent. Repentance is not by the force of God, for He no more repents for us than He believes for us!

Although it is our responsibility to repent and believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in and enables us/unless it has been granted him from the Father, we would NEVER come to believe the gospel all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

While we can do nothing to "merit" salvation, what works we do are counted as "meritorious" before God because they cannot happen without our cooperation with the work of the Spirit in our lives.

This sounds similar to what Roman Catholicism teaches. Saved by "these" works (good works done in cooperation with God etc..) and just not "those" works (works done otherwise or works of the law etc..) The apostle Paul made it crystal clear that man is saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and that God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:5-6) In Titus 3:5 Paul made it clear that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul makes it clear that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works. So the saved by "these" works and just not "those" works argument is bogus.

The whole scheme of bifurcation "works of merit" vs. "presence of works" is not a real thing. No one's works will save them, yet, no one will be saved without works.

Sounds like an oxymoron, unless you mean saved apart from the merit of works, yet authentic faith is not apart from the presence of works.

The reconciliation between these two concepts is not in an artificial separating of imaginary "types" of works, but uniting them in the union of the Free-will believer and the work of God that always bears fruit. Strangely, we are rewarded in heaven for our "good works," yet if we do "good works" apart form the motive of God working them in and through us, and do them with the concept of personal reward and merit, we already have our reward (recognition) of men, and there will be no reward in heaven.

At least you acknowledge rewards in heaven.

Obedience and Holiness are the fruit of a saving faith.

The fruit of saving faith, yet those who teach salvation by works would say the root of saving faith.

Neither are done for "merit." Yet, because man cooperates as a vessel of God, men will be rewarded in some way in heaven as if this were merit. We are told that the Saints with their Crown of Righteousness fall before Jesus in heaven, that they will cast their Crowns (reward) before His feet. Since we cannot be saved without works, and cannot be saved apart from God doing these works in and through us, I would have to agree with the 1770 Methodist Conference Minute's that... we not only work from life, but for life.

You sound dangerously close to teaching salvation by works (at least in part).

 

[mjrhealth]

No one's works will save them, yet, no one will be saved without works.

You got to be kidding me,where did you dig this one up, see like so many adding works, whats it say,

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

you turned a gift into an earned reward, and grace into your works. Well done.

 

[mailmandan]

The argument of "works of merit" and the "presence of works" is designed to accommodate the man-made doctrine that Christians are only "saved sinners" and that the only difference between a Saved Person and a Lost Sinner, is "Grace."

This is a straw man argument and there is more of a difference than that between a saved person and a lost sinner. (1 John 3:7-10)

An All-Powerful, Holy God that says that He is against sin, that He will save His people from their sins, to go and "sin no more," that we can do "all things" through Jesus Christ our Lord... is reduced to a meaningless suggestion that His conversion, regeneration, and sanctification, making us a "new man" is utterly ineffective on this side of heaven, and commands to "Be ye holy as your Father in heaven is holy," and, "without holiness, no man shall see the Lord" were never meant to mean what they say.., what makes one believe that God can accomplish it in us in the future where He has never promised it?

It sounds to me like you may have bought into "sinless perfection." I've seen people abuse and misuse the words of Jesus "go and sin no more" in John 8:11 to teach sinless perfection, yet Jesus was telling the woman to go and leave her life of sin, namely, she had been practicing adultery. Also, Jesus cannot compromise his perfect holy standard, so of course He is not going to say, "go and just sin a little bit." Do you interpret "Be as holy as your Father in heaven is holy" as teaching sinless perfection? Do you believe that you are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time exactly as God the Father is? Again, Jesus cannot compromise His perfect, holy standard, so He is not going to say, "be less than perfect," yet absolute perfection, sinless, without fault or defect, flawless for us will not become a reality until we are present with the Lord in our glorified bodies, but that is the goal to strive for. Set the bar high!

Hebrews 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. Those who see themselves as "holier than thou" seem to prefer this translation and imply that if you are not "holy enough" (like them) then you shall not see the Lord. In other words, you won't be saved. *The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification and even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1)

Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. Here is how I see it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness, in regards to our ongoing sanctification/spiritual growth towards maturity in Christ.

 

[Episkopos]

No and even you are denying it, all you see is sin, all the religious men see is sin, all the so called "perfect" christians see is everyone elses sin but deny their very own, you think that you are perfect and without sin, that is only because of Gods grace and teh works and righteousness of Christ, not one thing you or any man can do to change that, yet you sit here and deny grace make it out to be some new "law", and some other "obedience" thing that makes it all about you and your doing, and you are no better or worse than any other man, you and all those proud people will stand as equals amongst the saved, with not one iota of reason to boast. Men are proud boasters of self, it is that gospel that so many love to preach,

We are saved by grace, all men when they believe, because God knows men love to boast, you should be thankful that God puts your sin as far as teh east if from the west, because if it where not so, you would surely be in trouble, but I am sure if you think you are perfect you may ask Him to take account of all your sin, it wont be His choice but I am sure He will oblige you.

You have it exactly backwards.

A salvation scheme that is an invention of man has no power over sin.

Did Jesus sin? Why not? Was He powered by Adam? NO He is Christ.

So then the grace of God is not to be powered by Adam but by Christ.

So why do you boast of having Christ when you are still in Adam? Why deny the power of Christ in order to claim to be in Him. The high calling is to enter into Christ...to live from Him. You need instruction in the most basic aspects of the faith. We are learning to trust God by faith while still following Christ at a distance so we can know how to walk in humility when we are IN Him. That's the real discipleship...that few have any faith in.

Paul was the opposite of people like you who presume and then judge falsely. He was trying to WIN Christ...to walk as Jesus walked. To enter INTO Him so as to experience HIS resurrection life.


Phil. 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Does that sound like a man who assumes and presumes and defends his right to sin?

"That I might know HIM and the power of His resurrection"

Phil. 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;



Not...that I might claim to know Him so that I can be resurrected one day while I deny Christ and the power of the gospel today.



So why are you denying the power of God? What do you hope to gain by gainsaying the words of God? We have access to the living God and His grace through faith in Christ. Seize the opportunity and quit digging yourself deeper into a hole.

Take God seriously.

 

[Episkopos]

This is a straw man argument and there is more of a difference than that between a saved person and a lost sinner. (1 John 3:7-10)

It sounds to me like you may have bought into "sinless perfection." I've seen people abuse and misuse the words of Jesus "go and sin no more" in John 8:11 to teach sinless perfection, yet Jesus was telling the woman to go and leave her life of sin, namely, she had been practicing adultery. Also, Jesus cannot compromise his perfect holy standard, so of course He is not going to say, "go and just sin a little bit." Do you interpret "Be as holy as your Father in heaven is holy" as teaching sinless perfection? Do you believe that you are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time exactly as God the Father is? Again, Jesus cannot compromise His perfect, holy standard, so He is not going to say, "be less than perfect," yet absolute perfection, sinless, without fault or defect, flawless for us will not become a reality until we are present with the Lord in our glorified bodies, but that is the goal to strive for. Set the bar high!

Hebrews 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. Those who see themselves as "holier than thou" seem to prefer this translation and imply that if you are not "holy enough" (like them) then you shall not see the Lord. In other words, you won't be saved. *The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification and even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1)

Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. Here is how I see it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness, in regards to our ongoing sanctification/spiritual growth towards maturity in Christ.

Again there is a mixture of truth and error...with errors being built on more error.

I'll just address one error here. That of a permanent partial sanctification.

You are using a human reasoning based on a morality you were born with in Adam...and ignoring the bible when it sounds "impossible" to your ears.

Let's look at the bible with faith...rather than through incredulity.

1 Thess. 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You should understand that you can't be partially sanctified or positionally sanctified. That is Adamic reasoning at work

You can't be partially pregnant and partially born.

And being sanctified is indeed in a moment...but not a one time event. We can go in and out of the Spirit.


John says in Rev. 1 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day....

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

Now don't run to your human reasoning. Read what it says. John was not ALWAYS in the Spirit. He went in and out.

There is no partial sanctification. We have access to God and His holy presence as we come in and out of the Spirit.

There is no "positional" cover-ups. We are what we are. And we are given power over this life by entering into Him...by changing the location of our power source.

Now I have never known you to be honest and reasonable up till now...(from other sites too)...but I'm trying to reason with you according to the word. Will you drop your opinions for truth?

 

[Episkopos]

The bible does not say that works don't justify a person. Of course they do. We will only be judged by our works. People get confused because of the way Paul explains things. Paul says that there is a justification without works. YES there is...IOW not JUST works justify you. Justification by works is a given throughout the entire bible.

So why is Paul so intent on speaking about being justified by faith? To make things easier on people? To make a new religion based on a free pass on sin? Of course not.

Paul was interested in WINNING Christ.

He was after what no modern people are after. So they read him wrong.

Paul was telling us that ONLY by faith can one enter into the resurrection life of Jesus. You can't enter into the Spirit by works. So we may be justified by works...but they are a dead end, so to speak, in our continued quest to walk with God in Zion. THAT can only happen by faith and surrender.

So then to justify yourself by your faith is anathema to God...and Paul. Paul was NOT prescribing a way to be a Christian through beliefs. NO>>>>

He was speaking of the miraculous walk in the perfected life of Christ...without sin...which is only by faith. But not a human belief. God must receive your sacrifice and send down His power...like at Pentecost....like Enoch who was translated into heaven (and we translated into the kingdom realm in Zion)...like Cornelius and his household on whom the Spirit fell. THAT is what Paul is talking about. An entrance into an eternal kind of life...that is above sin. It is in holiness in the very presence of God.

Modern believers are NOT like Paul or Abraham. Abraham never claimed he was justified by his faith. God did. And that is a world of difference. But people today feel comfortable with justifying themselves by their beliefs. And that is WORSE than being a Pharisee.

 

[mailmandan]

Again there is a mixture of truth and error...with errors being built on more error.

I'll just address one error here. That of a permanent partial sanctification.

You are using a human reasoning based on a morality you were born with in Adam...and ignoring the bible when it sounds "impossible" to your ears.

Let's look at the bible with faith...rather than through incredulity.

1 Thess. 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You should understand that you can't be partially sanctified or positionally sanctified. That is Adamic reasoning at work

You can't be partially pregnant and partially born.

And being sanctified is indeed in a moment...but not a one time event. We can go in and out of the Spirit.

John says in Rev. 1 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day....

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

Now don't run to your human reasoning. Read what it says. John was not ALWAYS in the Spirit. He went in and out.

There is no partial sanctification. We have access to God and His holy presence as we come in and out of the Spirit.

There is no "positional" cover-ups. We are what we are. And we are given power over this life by entering into Him...by changing location in our power source.

Now I have never known you to be honest and reasonable up till now...(from other sites too)...but I'm trying to reason with you according to the word. Will you drop your opinions for truth?

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. As I already explained, those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor. So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event.

Full maturity and the complete sanctification of each and every believer (spirit, soul and body) is Paul's earnest desires for all Christians, yet some erroneously interpret that as reaching sinless perfection in this life (as demonstrated by you). We are "set apart/made holy" positionally sanctified in Christ the moment that we place our faith in the Lord Jesus for salvation, but for the rest of our lives we are being progressively sanctified in a practical sense, as we mature in the faith and continue to grow in grace. (You seem to remain under the delusion that you skipped growth and went straight to sinless perfection). Paul knows that our complete and final sanctification will only be attained when we receive our glorified bodies, yet you remain under the delusion that you have already arrived.

All you talk about is power, yet your self centered, self glorifying, performance based, narcissistic gospel has no power. You have not changed at all from when I talked with you on BibleForums years ago. You are still peddling type 2 works salvation and sinless perfection.

 

[Episkopos]

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. As I already explained, those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor. So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event.

Full maturity and the complete sanctification of each and every believer (spirit, soul and body) is Paul's earnest desires for all Christians, yet some erroneously interpret that as reaching sinless perfection in this life (as demonstrated by you). We are "set apart/made holy" positionally sanctified in Christ the moment that we place our faith in the Lord Jesus for salvation, but for the rest of our lives we are being progressively sanctified in a practical sense, as we mature in the faith and continue to grow in grace. (You seem to remain under the delusion that you skipped growth and went straight to sinless perfection). Paul knows that our complete and final sanctification will only be attained when we receive our glorified bodies.

All you talk about is power, yet your self centered, self glorifying, performance based, narcissistic gospel has no power.

There is no power in your perverted gospel of salvation by sinless perfection.
You have not changed at all from when I talked with you on BibleForums years ago.

Oh the irony. The brick wall is your human interpretation that refuses to see beyond your own experience. I said that the bible never speaks of a Gnostic type of positional holiness. You are what you do. You do what you are. That's it. No Gnostic positional salvation. The bible is not written by Greek philosophers. Jewish thought is always by action and in real time....no concepts. God doesn't need concepts...He is all powerful. Men hide behind concepts.

The truth is spiritual in nature..so you will never understand it the way you are thinking.

We can GO UP to abide in Christ and walk in His power. And we can come down to walk as a mere mortal man.

In both cases we seek to walk in a manner that is pleasing to God. Whether we are present or absent from the Lord.

 

[mailmandan]

Oh the irony. The brick wall is your human interpretation that refuses to see beyond your own experience. I said that the bible never speaks of a Gnostic type of positional holiness. You are what you do. You do what you are. That's it. No Gnostic positional salvation.

The truth is spiritual in nature..so you will never understand it the way you are thinking.

We can GO UP to abide in Christ and walk in His power. And we can come down to walk as a mere mortal man.

In both cases we seek to walk in a manner that is pleasing to God. Whether we are present of absent from the Lord.

You turn abiding in Christ into a special experience that only a few, elite Christians will experience and you can't seem to grasp that believers are sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. You are on some kind of delusional power trip which reminds me of people in cults.

 

[Episkopos]

You turn abiding in Christ into a special experience that only a few, elite Christians will experience and you can't seem to grasp that believers are sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. You are on some kind of delusional power trip which reminds me of people in cults.

Delusional? No, miraculous. So you are still refusing faith in the living God. It sounds too hard for you. But that is who God is. Unapproachable...but yet through the faith of Christ...now approachable. A paradox.

But you would make God common and faith to be an easy gesture.

So you are not going to have access to the living God by your unbelief.

Jesus said the way is narrow and hard. But your indoctrination makes that out to be like a cult.

So what? The truth is the truth even if you ridicule it or write it off.. of course you are just writing yourself off in this way. Out of the race...and never in it.

Is it hard to enter into Christ!?? YES. Paul sought that life above all things and ran to win.

But you ignore the truth for an easy fast food type of religion.

Do as you wish. I delight in being seen as foolish for Christ. Hallelujah!

It's unfortunate that you lack the faith to rejoice when you finally see how hard the way of faith IN Christ really is.

Are you to seek God haphazardly? As a sideline? In our free time?

Is that what the saints did?

O, the offense of the cross.

What as yet non-spiritual brothers can do is to follow Christ but from a certain distance (depends on our faith and consecration). Letting go one's own sense of morality and good to be led by the Spirit. His will be done. Rejoicing in all things. So then there's the lower walk that is in righteousness but not yet in holiness.

 

[mailmandan]

Delusional? No, miraculous. So you are still refusing faith in the living God. It sounds too hard for you. But that is who God is. Unapproachable...but yet through the faith of Christ...now approachable. A paradox.

But you would make God common and faith to be an easy gesture.

So you are not going to have access to the living God by your unbelief.

Jesus said the way is narrow and hard. But your indoctrination makes that out to be like a cult.

So what? The truth is the truth even if you ridicule it or write it of.. You are just writing yourself off in this way.

Is it hard to enter into Christ! YES. Paul sought that life above all things and ran to win.

But you ignore the truth for an easy fast food type of religion.

Do as you wish. I delight in being seen as foolish for Christ. Hallelujah!

It's unfortunate that you lack the faith to rejoice when you finally see how hard the way of faith IN Christ really is.

Are you to seek God haphazardly? As a sideline? In our free time?

Is that what the saints did?

More straw man arguments and slander from a delusional, spiritual narcissist. Your faith is in your own, personal power trip and not in the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel.

 

[Episkopos]

More straw man arguments and slander from a delusional, spiritual narcissist. Your faith is in your own, personal power trip and not in the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) Let me know when you are ready to repent and believe the gospel.

I have you on ignore..but you bring your false accusations onto my thread. I expect true seekers to see how you have portrayed the true gospel as an anathema in order to abhor the truth of the gospel which is of the miraculous spiritual kingdom that is in Zion which is according to grace and entered into by acceptance of God through faith.

So then this thread about the decoy gospel is being fully fleshed out by the purveyors and victims of that very human gospel that brings only death...not life.

There is a way that seems right (and easy) to a man...but that way is a morally inspired way according to the Adamic limitation that comes from the tree that leads not to life...but death.

 

[Candidus]

This is a straw man argument and there is more of a difference than that between a saved person and a lost sinner. (1 John 3:7-10)

It sounds to me like you may have bought into "sinless perfection." I've seen people abuse and misuse the words of Jesus "go and sin no more" in John 8:11 to teach sinless perfection, yet Jesus was telling the woman to go and leave her life of sin, namely, she had been practicing adultery. Also, Jesus cannot compromise his perfect holy standard, so of course He is not going to say, "go and just sin a little bit." Do you interpret "Be as holy as your Father in heaven is holy" as teaching sinless perfection? Do you believe that you are sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolutely perfect 100% of the time exactly as God the Father is?

Name one person in all of history that taught this besides ignorant people that made up "sinless perfection" as a strawman and have no idea of what they are talking about!

Was Jesus saying, "Go and sin all the sin you want besides adultery"? Do you believe that Jesus is a liar, and commands us to "be" holy as He (God) is holy? If God commands impossibilities, then when we read Scripture, what are we allowed to dismiss as relevant and real?

Hebrews 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. Those who see themselves as "holier than thou" seem to prefer this translation and imply that if you are not "holy enough" (like them) then you shall not see the Lord. In other words, you won't be saved. *The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

You disbelieve Jesus and Matt. 5:48, and now you dismiss the plain words of Scripture and the Holy Spirit in Hebrews. All because you have a strawman to attack?

To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification and even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1)

Our sanctification is God's will. Paul writes that God will sanctify you wholly... not partially or incomplete. If you have a jar of arsenic, and you only dilute it half-way, you would be a fool if you said it was good to drink! Half-holy is no more pleasing to a Holy God than no holiness.

We can read that God wants us to be holy NOW! That sanctification happens in our lifetime. If that were not so, why would the Bible NEVER have sanctification in the future tense? There is no sanctification after this life.

Those who have been justified by faith are also sanctified/set apart/made holy before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

"Such were some of you;" This is no fictional positional state, but a reality. According to the Bible, there is as described here, and innitial sanctification, but Paul urges believers to be sanctified wholly.

Yet we also have progressive or ongoing sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4 - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

Is salvation a matter of endless and impossible "progressiveness"? The Bible shows salvation in the past, present and future tenses. Yet, sanctification is NEVER in the future tense; there is no being made holy in reality after death. Where the tree falls, there shall it lie.

So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one time event. Here is how I see it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness, in regards to our ongoing sanctification/spiritual growth towards maturity in Christ.

Progressive holiness has no purpose unless it actually leads to completion. The same can be said where the Bible puts our salvation off in the future tense. Do you "grow" into salvation? If not, then you have no Biblical argument that people "grow into" sanctification.

 

[mailmandan]

I have you on ignore..but you bring your false accusations onto my thread. I expect true seekers to see how you have portrayed the true gospel as an anathema in order to abhor the truth of the gospel which is of the miraculous spiritual kingdom that is in Zion which is according to grace and entered into by acceptance of God through faith.

So then this thread about the decoy gospel is being fully fleshed out by the purveyors and victims of that very human gospel that brings only death...not life.

There is a way that seems right (and easy) to a man...but that way is a morally inspired way according to the Adamic limitation that comes from the tree that leads not to life...but death.

You are not fooling me or any of my brothers and sisters in Christ on the Christianity Board with your decoy gospel, but feel free to place me on ignore if you wish.