If you cannot be saved without the accompanying fruit/works, and a fruitless faith is a dead faith that cannot save, then we are certainly justified by works as James says.
By what will a Christian be judged? Their faith? Or their works?
The Decoy Gospel
- Thread starter Episkopos
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
By what will a Christian be judged? Their faith? Or their works?
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
When did I say that a dead faith saved anybody? In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.
Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-15
Faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree). James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith.
In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated as "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Christians are saved apart from the merit of works, yet authentic faith is not apart from the presence of works. Judged by works does not mean that salvation is obtained based on the merit of our works. For believers, that pertains to rewards and loss of rewards. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) For unbelievers, like the scribes and Pharisees for example, can even result in greater condemnation. (Matthew 23:14)
and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
BTW: To "abide" means to remain, stay, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. Abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience that is only available to a limited few elite Christians, but is the position of all true believers.
When? What are you talking about? Judgment day? Only Christians will be judged by a questionnaire and all others will be judged by works? Why do you put yourself above being judged by your works? Are they evil? Are you hiding them?
You are making dogmatic statements based on a religious ideology..without understanding.
In truth there IS a salvation based on faith. But you deny the power of that salvation by claiming to be saved IN your sins. So that doesn't work.
You also claim to be only judged for a loss of rewards rather than a loss of ALL things..to be naked and shamed for eternity. So you are soft-pedaling holiness...all the time. Why? To justify sinfulness.
What is a true believer? Abiding in Christ is a miraculous provision of grace so as to walk as Jesus in this world...as an overcomer just as Jesus was. As He IS so are WE (if we abide in Christ) in this world. He who says He abides in Him ought to walk even as He walked. That is the bible.
Take away the emotional attachment to unbiblical indoctrination and believe the gospel.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Your continued strawman arguments and slander is nauseating.
Just imagine how your posts appear. You are the one who brought the porta-potty to this thread.
Nonsense! One thing that is impossible to change... the evidence that there is a dead branch on a tree is proof that there was once life in that branch! "Judas by transgression fell...." Generally speaking, you cannot fall from where you were never at. I do not know a person alive that would not believe that a Bishop knowingly ordaining an evil devil to go out in the Name of God and minister to the people, and promising them Eternal Life and that there is a mansion in heaven prepared for them... is a disgusting, immoral and incompetent fraud that is holding the position of Bishop!
"While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled." Jn. 17:12.
Judas had to be one that God "gave" to Jesus, and Jesus admits that He lost Judas. It is a virtual impossibility to lose something you never had.
Dead branches were at one time, living branches in the Vine. Unfruitful and dead branches are pruned and burned in the fire.
Nonsense! A true believer bearing fruit accompanies salvation. You cannot be saved, or have a saving faith unless you repent and believe. That is fruit.
Pneuma in Greek can also mean "fart"... so how does that change the facts? No one here has denied that life is from God, and that this life brings forth breath/spiritual life. What I am asserting is that this life is accompanied by fruit/works, or it cannot bring life/breath. If God can give us life, can He not give us the fruit of a genuine faith in that instance?
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
I will gladly respond to this post later when I have more time. I need to get to work.
The power of the gospel is disbelieved by modern self-styled believers who select certain verses that become emotional favourites and that are used for self-justification.
The gospel is according to power not God losing His eyesight and His sense of smell. God is patient and He is merciful...but He will not strive with men forever. Judgment day will reveal all things. A fearful and dreadful day.
God is holy and His standard is upheld through His gift of grace. Grace is the miraculous faculty that makes us to be holy as God is holy. To be as Christ in this world. Otherwise it is a man-made invention.
The true gospel is miraculous in it's ability to form Christ in a person.
The gospel is according to power not God losing His eyesight and His sense of smell. God is patient and He is merciful...but He will not strive with men forever. Judgment day will reveal all things. A fearful and dreadful day.
God is holy and His standard is upheld through His gift of grace. Grace is the miraculous faculty that makes us to be holy as God is holy. To be as Christ in this world. Otherwise it is a man-made invention.
The true gospel is miraculous in it's ability to form Christ in a person.
To break the gospel down to it's basic element one has to consider this.
Did Jesus come to forgive our continual sinning...ie...save us IN our sins?
Or is the gospel that Jesus came to save us FROM our sins...in remission (freedom.... Aphesis) from sin?
Only the lawless want a freedom to sin.
The gospel decoy appeals to the flesh and it's permissiveness towards sin without any sense of wrongdoing...having become irresponsible for one's one actions.
The true gospel is the power to become a child of God. To be on the road to holiness...experiencing the perfection of His resurrection (grace) by faith.
Did Jesus come to forgive our continual sinning...ie...save us IN our sins?
Or is the gospel that Jesus came to save us FROM our sins...in remission (freedom.... Aphesis) from sin?
Only the lawless want a freedom to sin.
The gospel decoy appeals to the flesh and it's permissiveness towards sin without any sense of wrongdoing...having become irresponsible for one's one actions.
The true gospel is the power to become a child of God. To be on the road to holiness...experiencing the perfection of His resurrection (grace) by faith.
Here is a twisted logic that ONLY very indoctrinated people can agree to.
---A sinner can enter into Christ and sin from there in whom is NO sin and who has never known sin nor ever will.----
Good luck with making that appeal to any honest person. Of course this post will be ignored or twisted in turn.
The only logical alternative that is honest of the true gospel is Gnosticism where there is a parallel universe where we are sinless even as we sin. Where we can raise the dead and walk on water even as we bury the dead and go swimming.
So then really there is NO alternative to the truth but the truth...which most believers have no faith in.
---A sinner can enter into Christ and sin from there in whom is NO sin and who has never known sin nor ever will.----
Good luck with making that appeal to any honest person. Of course this post will be ignored or twisted in turn.
The only logical alternative that is honest of the true gospel is Gnosticism where there is a parallel universe where we are sinless even as we sin. Where we can raise the dead and walk on water even as we bury the dead and go swimming.
So then really there is NO alternative to the truth but the truth...which most believers have no faith in.
Last edited:
The bifurcation of "works of merit" and the "presence of works" is a false dichotomy. If someone does not repent and believe, they are not saved. While God precedes and gives the ability, it is impossible for God to force someone to repent against their will. The fact that the person is able to repent and believe is because of God working in and through them. It is an equal fact that this will never occur unless that person does not disbelieve and does not accept the ability to repent. Repentance is not by the force of God, for He no more repents for us than He believes for us!
While we can do nothing to "merit" salvation, what works we do are counted as "meritorious" before God because they cannot happen without our cooperation with the work of the Spirit in our lives. The whole scheme of bifurcation "works of merit" vs. "presence of works" is not a real thing. No one's works will save them, yet, no one will be saved without works. The reconciliation between these two concepts is not in an artificial separating of imaginary "types" of works, but uniting them in the union of the Free-will believer and the work of God that always bears fruit. Strangely, we are rewarded in heaven for our "good works," yet if we do "good works" apart form the motive of God working them in and through us, and do them with the concept of personal reward and merit, we already have our reward (recognition) of men, and there will be no reward in heaven. Obedience and Holiness are the fruit of a saving faith. Neither are done for "merit." Yet, because man cooperates as a vessel of God, men will be rewarded in some way in heaven as if this were merit. We are told that the Saints with their Crown of Righteousness fall before Jesus in heaven, that they will cast their Crowns (reward) before His feet.
Since we cannot be saved without works, and cannot be saved apart from God doing these works in and through us, I would have to agree with the 1770 Methodist Conference Minute's that... we not only work from life, but for life.
The power of God to "save" seems to be with most, a limited power. We can be saved in the fictional world where there is not difference between a believer and an unbeliever in moral action. At best, the "Christian" just "tries" to be a little bit better. This is called by them, the "process" of sanctification, which ironically never arrives at the end or makes men holy. A God, who is all powerful, and all Holy, is impotent to change a mere human into what He claims that He wants! The argument of "works of merit" and the "presence of works" is designed to accommodate the man-made doctrine that Christians are only "saved sinners" and that the only difference between a Saved Person and a Lost Sinner, is "Grace."
An All-Powerful, Holy God that says that He is against sin, that He will save His people from their sins, to go and "sin no more," that we can do "all things" through Jesus Christ our Lord... is reduced to a meaningless suggestion that His conversion, regeneration, and sanctification, making us a "new man" is utterly ineffective on this side of heaven, and commands to "Be ye holy as your Father in heaven is holy," and, "without holiness, no man shall see the Lord" were never meant to mean what they say.., what makes one believe that God can accomplish it in us in the future where He has never promised it?
Last edited:
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Now in regards to the thorny soil, some people interpret “becomes unfruitful" (as read in certain translations) as "was fruitful but then later became unfruitful." Other translations make it more clear:
Bible in Basic English - put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit.
Complete Jewish Bible - so that it produces nothing.
English Standard Version - choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
New Century Version - So the teaching does not produce fruit in that person's life.
New Revised Standard - choke the word, and it yields nothing.
Revised Standard Version - choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
The Amplified Bible reads, "and it yields no fruit."
That is not the same thing as "was fruitful, only to later become unfruitful." Produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing, yields no fruit just does not equate to produced fruit but later stopped producing fruit.
In CONTRAST, to the rocky and thorny soil, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." *Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size.* I suppose the question still remains, "can this forth soil eventually become fruitless?" If this were possible, why didn't Christ include such a scenario before concluding?
*There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING OR WITHERING THEREAFTER.
In Hebrews 10:39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
Is this in reference to membership or service? The NIV reads - Jesus replied, "No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God." If membership, then looking back represents fell short of conversion.
Reb. 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev. 3:16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.
Rom. 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Well, every translation cannot be correct, can it! The NASB says, "and it becomes unfruitful" which agrees with the King James, and is correct.
The word use to "become" is gignomai, means to be made or formed; to become. Where the context is different, it can mean to bring to a completion. Here, in Matthew, the context is about "becoming" unfruitful. It is also in the present tense, which emphasizes the "becoming." The whole passage speaks about differing seeds on different grounds. The contrast is not make to be redundant, but to show the contrast and different results of what has already gone before. Because holding to the Greek produces a theological conflict for many, one can seek a biased "translation," yet they will not have an honest translation.
The contrast is against all that has gone before, to show that some will have a genuine faith and produce much fruit. Jesus ends on a high note.
You cannot draw back into perdition when you never left perdition. To make such an argument that it is a warning to those that were never saved... is to make the comment unnecessary, unfruitful, and self-contradictory.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Again, in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off. Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.
John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).
Syllogism
1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father
Or, this way.
1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.
Unfruitful, dead branches that are "self attached" to the vine and end up being burned in the fire were never alive.
Fruit accompanies salvation, but fruit is not the cause of salvation. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. Only those who repent (change their mind) and believe the gospel (by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation) have saving faith.
Say what?
I never said that life is not accompanied by fruit/works, yet the source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
Similar threads
