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BloodBought 1953

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Your understanding of Scripture is as limited and woefully-ignorant as your knowledge of history and languages.

And since your cowardice won’t allow you to address the Scriptural evidence I’ve presented that obliterates your man-made OSAS nonsense – how about a history question?

Since YOU said that the Catholic Church was “created by liars” – perhaps you can tell me WHO created it and WHEN . . .



Satan created it.....I don't know when.....
 

Berserk

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apak, consider the scholarly consensus represented by Raymond Brown in his magisterial “An Introduction to the New Testament” (878 pages):

“Most scholars agree that the title “To the Hebrews” was not supplied by the author...Almost certainly it represents a conjecture attached to the work because of an analysis of the contents that deal so largely with Israelite cult...At the beginning they [the addressees] were properly enlightened and baptized into Christ. The community received the Christian message from evangelists whose work was accompanied by the working of miracles. The activity of the Holy Spirit was part of that experience (2:3-4: 6:4-5). Then...they were afflicted by some type of persecution, hostility, and/ or harassment (10:32-34). They were deprived of property and some were put in prison. (p. 697).”

APAK to Bread of Life: "All I can say is BOL, read the context of Hebrews 10.....every thought, every phrase and verse in sequence...Paul builds up from the Law, the past faith in it, of the Hebrews and then their new faith in Christ as given personally as epignosis....they are Hebrews! It is about the Hebrews transitioning between the OT Law and NT under grace....that should give you a hint in what Paul is warning THEM about...you know that many of those under the Law and after Christ discarded the epignosis of Christ and 'died.' This is Paul's concern.....why cannot you see this?"

Your claims can be summarily dispatched by 4 points:
(1) No academic commentary on Hebrews supports Paul's authorship of this epistle.
(2) The scholarly consensus recognizes the addressees as the church of Rome, a Gentile church with some Jewish Christians. Thus, the earliest citations of Hebrews come from Rome.
(3) You confuse OT themes with proper exegetical procedure. Let's take a closer look at the flow of soteriological thought after 10:26:
"If we willfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin, but a fearsome prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire."

Such apostates were once "made holy, but outraged the Spirit of grace (10:29)." But this holiness can be forfeited and therefore needs to be pursued: "Pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (12:14)."


"It is impossible to restore again to repentance those who once been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, since on their own, they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding Him up for contempt (6:4-5)."

Such people do not benefit from eternal security. In the context the author likens them to ground that grows "thorns and thistles" that is "cursed" and destined to being "burned over (6:8)" and therefore to be consigned to Hell. Yet these apostates have received the "heavenly gift" of salvation (cp. Ephesians 2:8-9) and the Holy Spirit, and so, they were once born again of the Spirit.

"Metachoi" in 6:4 means "partners" as well as "sharers." The Christians addressed in 6:4 "have become partners ("metochoi") with the Holy Spirit," meaning they have been saved by the work of the Spirit. Thus, the author addresses his readers as "holy partners ("metachoi") in the heavenly calling" (3:1) and then warns: "For we have become partners ("metochoi") of Christ, if only we hold our FIRST confidence firm till the end (3:14)." By implication the saving partnership with Christ or the Holy Spirit is dissolved if we don't persevere until the end, but become apostates! Similarly, you overlook the significance of the phrase, "it is impossible to restore again to repentance." "Restore again" implies the Christians in question have already repented when they became partners with Christ and the Holy Spirit.

APAK: "You [Bread of Life] have twisted this Hebrew 10:26 beyond recognition for your own selfish purposes to deny believing in salvation through any means besides only the RCC."
On the contrary, he reflects the standard interpretation of academic commentaries on Hebrews, which you obviously have never read!
 
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marksman

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I would suggest paying attention to the Holy Spirit's teaching on the matter.

If you have a relationship with Him through His word, you can always check with Him as to whether any teaching is faitfhul.

I wouldn't put too much stock in a Ph.D. Even those who have them can indeed be carnally-minded.

But true authority in the word of God comes through a relationship with the Holy Spirit.
I would suggest that you stop posting such banal and trivial words. I would suggest that you think about what you say before you say it because what you are saying here denotes a superior attitude and a holier than though ideation. Not a good look.
 

APAK

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Sure - I've already addressed this - SEVERAL times now.
YOUR problem is that you're so obsessed with me that it tears you apart that I have proven you wrong.

Get over it already . . .
Anyway BOL, since I know I became too personal in my remarks to you recently and overstepped a line here in this forum, where I can see how you felt very slighted, I do want to apologize to you now, ....nothing hurt I hope

Great Day and warm blessings...until the next intervention then BOL

APAK
 

BreadOfLife

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BOL, are you kidding me. I just refuted your argument concerning Hebrews 10... that never speaks to losing salvation, and you now say it will be fun to refute you on this subject, AGAIN. Again, are you kidding me. Remember you never could present any evidence to refute me? Did I miss it somewhere? I don;t think so. NOT doing it again. I refuted your claim already BOL. You have nothing to say except this will be fun, again.

I'll leave you to yourself BOL because I don't think you ever considered what I just presented or took it seriously, forgot what I said/wrote, or you are seriously delusional.

Until you can present real understandable, scriptural evidence and/or an intellectual and rational argument to rebut me on this subject of Hebrews 10 that does not speak to loss of salvation, I'm done on this subject with you. So don't bother answering to me on this subject if you cannot deliver. Your track record suggests you cannot.

If I don't answer you again on this subject you shall know then why.

Blessings from the Lord, my Messiah, Yahshua

APAK
WRONG.
Let's run through this again . . .

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth
, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek word for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential and relational knowledge (epignosis). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

In order for you to "refute" the fact that this is talking about truly converted, born-again believers - you need to deal with "Epignosis".
This is a warning to the FAITHFUL not to fall back into darkness and LOSE their security.

YOUR turn . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Anyway BOL, since I know I became too personal in my remarks to you recently and overstepped a line here in this forum, where I can see how you felt very slighted, I do want to apologize to you now, ....nothing hurt I hope

Great Day and warm blessings...until the next intervention then BOL

APAK
You are responding to a post that was directed at someone else.
NOT sure why . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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Satan created it.....I don't know when.....
That's a truly feeble answer.
If the Catholic Church was a "creation" by anybody other than Christ - then there HAS to be a starting point.

Your response is impotent.
 

Behold

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That’s what I thought you’d say.
Every historically-bankrupt person I’ve ever spoken to has the same answer: “Constantine started the Catholic Church.”
Time for another history lesson, junior . . .The Catholic Church was started by Jesus Chris (Matt. 16:18-19.


The cult of Mary teaches that the Church is "catholic" and started with Jesus.
Duh.
And
Mormons teach that Satan is Jesus's Brother.

See....All cults teach "crazy".
So, certainly you will quote "catholic" or "early catholic church fathers" to try to prove a lie.
What else can you do.? ?

So, all heretics teach heresy.
You are no different, you are just a bit more immature and quite a bit louder them most ive met.
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Behold

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That's a truly feeble answer.
If the Catholic Church was a "creation" by anybody other than Christ - then there HAS to be a starting point.
Your response is impotent.

Does a "starting Point" prove that what follows is true?
Hardly.
Take the Catholic Church for example.
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Behold

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The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let the hearer say, "Come." Let the one who thirsts come forward, and the one who wants it receive the gift of life-giving water

"Life giving water". = Baptismal Regeneration, = Born again by Water, = Devil's Lie, = Catholic Bible.
 

Behold

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Ummmm.....Sooooo when Jesus said "This IS my body/blood" he really meant is was a symbol?

Soooo why didn't he say "this is a symbol of my body/blood"?

How did Paul get it wrong when he rhetorically asked: The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ?

Who should I believe...Paul or you and your 500 year tradition?

God says you can't drink human blood.
You think you are doing this, so, what can i say.

Eating human flesh and drinking human blood.
You can't do this.
So, if you are taught that you are literally doing this, then you are listening to the Devil no matter how pretty the service, and no matter how many Mary's are hanging on the walls.
 

Berserk

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Behold: "The cult of Mary teaches that the Church is "catholic" and started with Jesus. Duh.

You need to be educated about the origin of the term "Catholic." The same first-century church (Antioch) that first embraced the Christian label (Acts 11:26) also identified the church as "Catholic!" We know this from Ignatius's epistles, who was the bishop of Antioch at the close of the first century.
I'm grateful for your "Duh," a tacit admission of how clueless you are about the biblical and historical basis for Catholic distinctives. You need to season your penchant for bluster with a modicum of intellectual rigor and actually get into the Word and respond to the Catholic interpretation of texts relevant to their doctrine. I'm amused that you've ducked my post on John 6:53-66 and ! Corinthians 11:29-30 to which you have no answer.

Behold: "Life giving water". = Baptismal Regeneration, = Born again by Water, = Devil's Lie, = Catholic Bible."

Read John 3:5 and 1 Peter 1:21 and you'll see that both texts are in your Bible as well as the Catholic Bible!
Peter teaches that baptism saves. Apparently you need to have your nose rubbed in that text because it refutes your agenda.
Peter just reflects Jesus' teaching that baptismal water and the Spirit are necessary conditions for entering the kingdom of God. I'm not Catholic, but I'll take Peter's word as a more reliable interpretation of Jesus than your vile screed.

Behold to Bread of Life: "You are no different, you are just a bit more immature and quite a bit louder them most ive met."

Your need to resort to such unkind insults just illustrates what a low level of consciousness your brand of Fundamentalism actually promotes. I admire Bread of Life's courage in serving Christ in this Lion's Den of angry intolerant Fundamentalists.
 

BloodBought 1953

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That's a truly feeble answer.
If the Catholic Church was a "creation" by anybody other than Christ - then there HAS to be a starting point.

Your response is impotent.


Your opinion is impotent.....
I have an opinion also.....you are Blind
Here is a fact, NOT an opinion——-ALL that adhere to catholic doctrine add to Paul’s Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing.....they Follow a “Perverted Gospel” taught by “ Accursed” Priests ....Don’t take my word for anything. Read Galatians. If you add to the Gospel with the Seven hoops that Catholics insist you must jump through ( infant baptism, confessions of sins before a priest , the taking of the Sacraments , etc ) you are “ Fallen From Grace” ( lets all hope that that does not mean Damnation) and those that Teach it are going to Hell— That is what “ Accursed” means. Sorry—- read Galatians and tell me that I am wrong.....I am waiting.
 

Berserk

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Your opinion is impotent.....
I have an opinion also.....you are Blind
Here is a fact, NOT an opinion——-ALL that adhere to catholic doctrine add to Paul’s Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing.....they Follow a “Perverted Gospel” taught by “ Accursed” Priests ....

More unkind insults from angry peevish Fundamentalists! Bol understands Paul better than you do!
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:13)."

Even Paul is not confident of where he stands with God:
"I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself. But I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me (1 Corinthians 4:3-5)."

You apparently don't realize that in both Hebrew ("amunah") and Greek ("pistis") the word translated faith also means "faithfulness." So we are saved by a new way of being--a "new creation in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17)."
I remind you of why Luther dismissed James as an epistle of straw. James teaches that good works are a necessary (but not a sufficient) condition for salvation (2:14)--and his brother Jesus would agree (see Matthew 25:41-45).
 

Illuminator

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Your opinion is impotent.....
I have an opinion also.....you are Blind
Here is a fact, NOT an opinion——-ALL that adhere to catholic doctrine add to Paul’s Gospel Of Grace Plus Nothing.....they Follow a “Perverted Gospel” taught by “ Accursed” Priests ....Don’t take my word for anything. Read Galatians. If you add to the Gospel with the Seven hoops that Catholics insist you must jump through ( infant baptism, confessions of sins before a priest , the taking of the Sacraments , etc ) you are “ Fallen From Grace” ( lets all hope that that does not mean Damnation) and those that Teach it are going to Hell— That is what “ Accursed” means. Sorry—- read Galatians and tell me that I am wrong.....I am waiting.
You're wrong, and present the standard, stupid, hostile (and I would argue Gnostic) perspective of sacramentalism, and haven't a clue what it means.

Ritual and “physicality” were not abolished by the coming of Christ. Quite the contrary: it was the Incarnation that fully established sacramentalism as a principle in the Christian religion. The latter may be defined as the belief that matter can convey grace. It’s really that simple, at bottom, or in essence. God uses matter both to help us live better lives (sanctification) and to ultimately save us (regeneration and justification), starting with baptism itself.

The atonement or redemption of Christ (His death on the cross for us) was not purely “spiritual.

” It was as physical (“sacramental,” if you will) as it could be, as well as spiritual. Protestants often piously refer to “the Blood of Jesus,” and rightly so (see Rev 5:9; Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; Heb 9:12; 1 Pet 1:2; 1 Jn 1:7; etc.). This is explicitly sacramental thinking.

Sacramentalism and the Bible

It was the very suffering of Jesus in the flesh, and the voluntary shedding of His own blood, which constituted the crucial, essential aspect of His work as our Redeemer and Savior. One can’t avoid this: “he was bruised for our iniquities” (Is 53:5).

So it is curious that many appear to possess a pronounced hostility to the sacramental belief in the Real Presence in the Eucharist, seeing that it flows so straightforwardly from the Incarnation and the Crucifixion itself. This brings to mind an analogy to the Jewish and Muslim disdain for the Incarnation as an unthinkable (impossible?) task for God to undertake. They view the Incarnation in the same way a majority of Protestants regard the Eucharist.

For them, God wouldn’t or couldn’t or shouldn’t become a man (such a thought is blasphemous; unthinkable!). For many (not all) Protestants, God wouldn’t or couldn’t or shouldn’t become substantially, physically, sacramentally present under the outward forms of bread and wine. The dynamic or underlying premise is the same. If Christ could become man, He can surely will to be actually and truly present in what was formerly (and still looks like) bread and wine, once consecrated.

The New Testament is filled with incarnational and sacramental indications: instances of matter conveying grace.
  • The Church is the “Body” of Christ (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 1:22-23; 5:30), and marriage (including its physical aspects) is described as a direct parallel to Christ and the Church (Eph 5:22-33; esp. 29-32).
  • Jesus even seems to literally equate Himself in some sense with the Church, saying He was “persecuted” by Paul, after the Resurrection (Acts 9:5).
  • Not only that; in St. Paul’s teaching, one can find a repeated theme of identifying very graphically and literally with Christ and His sufferings (see: 2 Cor 4:10; Phil 2:17; 3:10; 2 Tim 4:6; and above all, Col 1:24).
Matter conveys grace all over the place in Scripture:
  • baptism confers regeneration (Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Pet 3:21; cf. Mk 16:16; Rom 6:3-4; 1 Cor 6:11; Titus 3:5).
  • Paul’s “handkerchiefs” healed the sick (Acts 19:12),
  • as did even Peter’s shadow (Acts 5:15),
  • and of course, Jesus’ garment (Matt 9:20-22)
  • and saliva mixed with dirt (John 9:5 Markk 8:22-25),
  • as well as water from the pool of Siloam (John 9:7).
  • anointing with oil for healing is encouraged (Jas 5:14).
  • We also observe in Scripture the laying on of hands for the purpose of ordination and commissioning (Acts 6:6; 1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6) to facilitate the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17-19; 13:3; 19:6),
  • and for healing (Mk 6:5; Lk 13:13; Acts 9:17-18). Even under the old covenant, a dead man was raised simply by coming in contact with the bones of the prophet Elisha (2 Kings 13:21) — which is also one of the direct evidences for the Catholic practice of the veneration of relics (itself an extension of the sacramental principle).
Not ‘magic charms
Sacramentalism is a “product” of the Incarnation, just as the Church also is. But we must also understand that the sacraments are not “magic charms".

Intent, sincerity, motivation, piety, and suchlike are all supremely important in the Catholic life.

A piece of cloth cannot rescind the normal duties of the Catholic life. Nor is God some sort of celestial “vending machine".

” He wants our hearts; he wants us — not meaningless outward obedience without the proper interior motivation, in love, and by His grace. Sacraments help us, but we must do our part, too.
read more here. Christ didn’t abolish ritual — He perfected it

"...Thus, from its beginning, Protestantism has been preoccupied with what it regards as the depravity of human nature, its radical incapacity for goodness, its reliance on grace as on something which supplants man’s nature rather than penetrates it...

Here we find the cause of Protestantism’s inability to understand the importance of works to salvation, which led Luther to revise Scripture and declare the letter of St. James to be apocryphal. Here also we have the root of Calvin’s notion that some are predestined for heaven and others for hell by nothing but the arbitrary will of God. Nor are we surprised to find Protestant sects which have outlawed the celebration of Christmas itself, distrusting the human values and human joy which Christmas both represents and fulfills. Indeed, from the point of view of nature, Protestantism must be described as a very thin, a very incomplete religion.

By contrast, Catholicism flowers in nature, transforming and elevating not only man himself but man’s culture. The astonishing achievements of Catholic culture over two millennia—in art and literature, sculpture and architecture, education and government, work and play, fast and feast—are one and all rooted in the Incarnational principle. The sense that the human body is itself a repository of grace, a temple of the Holy Spirit, fosters a unique Catholic mode of being in which the mind and spirit are never alone, never cut off. Rather man worships God in his body, and carries all of nature beyond itself in the quest to fulfill the very end of religion, which is for all creation to give glory to God.

Not in the abstract, then, is Catholic salvation worked out, but in the concrete; not in the general, but in the particular. The Catholic vision is not one of being “attached” to Christ, but of “putting on” Christ (Gal 3:27), not one of merely receiving an external gift, but of living the Christ life deep within—so that I live, no not I, but Christ lives in me (Gal 2:20). Each virtue is cultivated, each habit transformed and elevated, each relationship purified, each work ennobled. And the power for this continuous transformation is nourished—no, actually ingested—and formed into community through the Eucharist, the Word quite literally made Flesh, the Body and Blood really and actually present, not in figure or even in grace alone, but in its very substance.

Every Catholic is called to a life-long process of incorporating (I choose the word advisedly) his whole self, body and soul, into Christ, and not only his self but his loves, his labors, his own small creations, and the entire world over which he has been given dominion. This project, in which no detail is neglected or flattened, and no element lost or discarded, is unique to Catholicism. As I have said, it is a project rooted in the Incarnational principle. But even the Incarnational principle is not so much explained as demonstrated, not so much taught as lived. It was lived first by Christ Himself, born of Mary and protected by Joseph, in Bethlehem, in a stable, in a manger—and so at length in us.

read more here: Why Be Catholic? 8: Incarnation
 

Behold

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Behold: "The cult of Mary teaches that the Church is "catholic" and started with Jesus. Duh.

You need to be educated about the origin of the term "Catholic." The same first-century church (Antioch) that first embraced the Christian label (Acts 11:26) also identified the church as "Catholic!"

Listen deceiver.

READ a GREEK TEXT.
TRY the TEXTUS RECEPTUS, or any of the 30 extant Greek Texts.
Start with Matthew and stop with The Revelation.
Do you see any Apostle refer to the church as "Catholic"?

"Catholic" is a CATHOLIC term.
So, Stop the lying.

This word is crated by those who are of the cult of Mary.
This is why you identify yourself as "catholic" and your church as the "one true".

You can't even state that you are a Christian.
Why?
Because you are CATHOLIC first and foremost and always.
Your allegiance is not to Jesus. Its to the POPE, right after Mary, right after the "Eucharist".
Those are your IDOLS.
That is your Cult
You can't even admit this, because you would have to be honest to admit it and that will never happen.

Look below at your Queen on her Throne and your Deceiver in his costume.
This is your false religion.
"Cult of Mary"
= Has nothing to do with Jesus, the NT, or being born again.
It has nothing to do with real Christianity.
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APAK

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@Behold

Your statements in your previous post of "This is why you identify yourself as "catholic" and your church as the "one true", I have asked as a question for many decades to RCs.

In this type of form...Which are you first, a Catholic or a Christian?

To date, nearly all respondents say one of three things: 1. either then say they are the same thing or 2,. I get a 'deer' gaze in the headlights look and they cannot answer me after a noticeable pause. The other less frequent response I get is that only Catholics are Christians.

Just saying, it is very revealing as to how ingrained systematic programming by religious cultists of heathen ideas, wearing robes and glitter, handed down from generation to generation, especially from youth can impact one's spiritual disposition today, later in life. Usually irreversible.
 

Berserk

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Behold: "Listen deceiver. "READ a GREEK TEXT."

Unlike you, I know Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, thank you very much!

Behold: "TRY the TEXTUS RECEPTUS,"

How ironic that a Fundamentalist like you cites the most corrupt text of the New Testament. You really need to read a book on Text Criticism to see why the KJV text of Scripture is the most corrupt.


Behold: "Do you see any Apostle refer to the church as "Catholic"?"

As I just point out to you, the first century church of Antioch coined both the term "Christian" and (around 100 AD) "Catholic" as designations of followers of Jesus. So the church that sent out Paul, Barnabas, and Silas on their great missionary journeys called itself "Catholic" and "Christian." That fact in itself give the term "Catholic" credibility as a reflection of apostolic tradition.

Behold: "This is why you identify yourself as "catholic" and your church as the "one true". You can't even state that you are a Christian.
Why? Because you are CATHOLIC first and foremost and always."

In fact, I'm an evangelical who is highly embarrassed that a bigot like you is distorting our faith and exemplifying a breath-takingly crude and offensive caricature of evangelical spirituality. I have refuted your anti-Catholic stance on biblical grounds and you have ducked the Word as it presented it to you.



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