John Darby

[Truther]

Neither of those quotes, or anywhere else in the Bible; say the Lord will take His people to heaven.
That idea is wrong and will never happen. After the Millennium, God and therefore heaven, will come to dwell with mankind on earth. Revelation 21:1-7

No. Jesus Returns in glory, seen by all; just once.

But He will send His fiery wrath upon the earth at the Sixth Seal event. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4, Amos 1 & 2:1-5

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Forever in the clouds?

 

[GISMYS_7]

Those that deny the rapture will be left behind!!!

Believe the word of God or be left behind!!! Your choice!!
Why not just believe God's Word on the catching up (rapture)??

Who Jesus will Return for and Catch up at the (Rapture) Answer =Hebrews 9:28=Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To ""those who eagerly wait for Him"" He will appear a second time.
Those that do not look for and expect the rapture are left behind and then must then try to live under anti-christ rule.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Luke 21:36

“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”
Just believe God's Word on the catching up (rapture)??

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain """shall be caught up together""" with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words1 Corinthians 15:51- 57
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 

[Taken]

Neither of those quotes, or anywhere else in the Bible; say the Lord will take His people to heaven.

I know, so why do you keep speaking For others, saying Raptured to Heaven?

No. Jesus Returns in glory, seen by all; just once.

No what? WHO said Jesus returns Twice?

LOL.

If your are going disagree with me, disagree with something I've said...not what you have said for me.

Taken

 

[Keraz]

Forever in the clouds?

Forever on the earth.
After the Millennium, God Himself will come to the earth and dwell with mankind. Revelation 21:1-7

Those that deny the rapture will be left behind!!!

Those that believe and promote the false teaching of the 'rapture', will be more severely judged. James 3:1

 

[Truther]

Forever on the earth.
After the Millennium, God Himself will come to the earth and dwell with mankind. Revelation 21:1-7

Those that believe and promote the false teaching of the 'rapture', will be more severely judged. James 3:1

Rather, those that dismiss 1 Thes 4 etc, will likely wait until the end of the world to be resurrected and judged by their works....yikes.

 

[Keraz]

Rather, those that dismiss 1 Thes 4 etc, will likely wait until the end of the world to be resurrected and judged by their works....yikes.

Why 'yikes'?
ALL the dead await the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

No one 'dismisses' 1 Thess 4:17, It is quite clear, the Lord will send His angels to gather His own people, when He Returns. Matthew 24:30-31 states it plainly.
To where He is; initially in the clouds, then in Jerusalem.

 

[Truther]

Why 'yikes'?
ALL the dead await the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

No one 'dismisses' 1 Thess 4:17, It is quite clear, the Lord will send His angels to gather His own people, when He Returns. Matthew 24:30-31 states it plainly.
To where He is; initially in the clouds, then in Jerusalem.

The first resurrection is in 2 major parts. They that are part of it will NOT taste of the 2nd death(found in the GWT). The rapture of the church is the 1st part of the 1st resurrection. The resurrected beheaded trib saints are the 2nd part.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Forever on the earth.
After the Millennium, God Himself will come to the earth and dwell with mankind. Revelation 21:1-7

Those that believe and promote the false teaching of the 'rapture', will be more severely judged. James 3:1

Who Jesus will Return for and Catch up at the (Rapture) Answer =Hebrews 9:28=Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To ""those who eagerly wait for Him"" He will appear a second time. Do you eargerly wait for Jesus or do you try to deny His word??

 

[Naomi25]

WHO said anything about Two Returns?

Everyone who teaches a Pre-trib Rapture.

 

[Keraz]

Who Jesus will Return for and Catch up at the (Rapture) Answer =Hebrews 9:28=Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To ""those who eagerly wait for Him"" He will appear a second time. Do you eargerly wait for Jesus or do you try to deny His word??

Here are the Words of Jesus:

John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.

John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11

 

[Enoch111]

Here are the Words of Jesus

All taken out of context in order to assert that the saints do not go the Heaven, their eternal home. The truth of the matter is that ALL the saints who have passed on are presently in Heaven, and in eternity all the children of God will live in the HEAVENLY CITY New Jerusalem.

 

[Naomi25]

Okay...LOL



Paul quotes what Jesus already spoke of prior(notice "WE SAY" as in the Apostles say, not just Paul)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.(common knowledge)


The catching away parallel...

Jesus...

Matt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Paul...

1 Thes. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

As I said in my previous post, I do agree there are many parallels. However, this is not one of them. The 'snatching away' referred to in these two passages, refer to two different sorts of people; in Matthew it is speaking of those under judgement, and in Thessalonians, it is, indeed, speaking of those being caught up to meet the Lord.
And to back this up, I'll show you how I get there.
When we read Matthew 24, we see this:

For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. -Matthew 24:37–42

To really get the gist of this passage, we jump over to Luke and read it's parallel in that gospel:

Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all..
so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed...
I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.”-Luke 17:26–27,30,34-35

We see the commonality in these passages. And we can ask, and answer some simple questions. Who are the ones destroyed? The wicked. Who are the ones "swept away"? The wicked. It is the wicked who are 'taken'...but they are taken to judgement, not to Rapture. In fact, Matt 13, the parable of the weeds, teaches this as well. Both the righteous and wicked 'grow together' in the Kingdom of the Son. But at the end of the age, when the harvest comes, the 'wicked' are gathered first, taken to judgement and fire.

Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” -Matthew 13:30
He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. -Matthew 13:37–43

 

[Naomi25]

Why are you saying;
...that Christ will "return" to Earth?

Why? Probably because scripture also says it:

and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” -Acts 1:11

And if you doubt that Jesus is also The Christ, the Messiah of God, then you are mistaken, because the bible also says that.


When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. -John 17:1–3

Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” -Acts 2:36

It is the Lord "himself", that descends from Heaven TO the Clouds, and calls Up to Him,
Men "IN" Christ.

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It is men IN Christ, who are caught up to the Clouds To Meet The Lord in the air.

1 Thes 4:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is The "Son of man", who Came to Earth.

Matt 18:
[11] For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Matt 16:
[27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
[28] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matt 20
[28] Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Matt 24:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of manin heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matt 24:
[39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of manbe.
[44] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

So, you don't see the "Son of Man" as God? No matter that Jesus uses that title specifically because of it's divine imagery directly pulled from Daniel. Why do you think the Pharisees were so furious at him for using it? He was calling himself God.
But goodness...if you see Jesus as something other than God, then I suspect your eschatology is the least of your problems.

* The Church IS NOT the Son of man's Church.
* The Son of man Does NOT descend From Heaven and Catch Up Christ's Church UP to Him, in the Clouds.
* Christ Did Not Come to Earth....
* The Son of man Came to Earth.
* The Son of man Left Earth and Returned to Heaven.
* The Son of man Shall descend from Heaven and Return to Earth.
* Earthly men CAN SEE the Son of man.
* Earthly men CAN NOT "SEE" Christ.

Glory to God,
Taken

I don't even know where to start on that list. It's like one of those knot puzzles that have no end.
What I see is that you've essentially made two separate characters: the 'Son of Man', and 'the Christ'. My question to you is: who is who?
Who do YOU say that Son of Man is? And who do YOU say the Christ is? And how do you BIBLICALLY wedge a separation in between them?

 

[Naomi25]

How many fiery furnaces are there? Get confused as ‘comes as a thief’ and ‘we are house owners who expect the thieves’ so we stay awake and keep watch for ‘comes as a thief’ ...what exactly are we watching for then? Thieves or a thief? He said ‘I have chosen these out of the furnace of affliction’ not the same fiery furnace then? Jude 1:22-23 And of some have compassion, making a difference: [23] And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Forgive me as I try and explain how I see this. I know all people 'understand' things differently, so sometimes there can be difficulty in making oneself understood. I'll try my best.
I think you're attempting to take the "thief" analogy to literally. Basically all the imagery is trying to portray is a Christian living their life in full expectancy that TODAY could be the day they meet their Lord. Be it through accidental death, persecution or his return. Instead of the 'thief' imagery, let me use 'guests'. If I know I have guests coming on a particular day, but not really what time they may arrive, I spend that day in preparation. Sure, I'll do other things, I won't spend all day at the door watching the drive way, but neither will I decide to spend that day away doing my shopping. I'll spend it doing little things that allow me to keep one ear out for their car.
Likewise, as Christians, we know that either life is fragile and we may be called upon to testify for our faith in martyrdom (overseas), or an accident might take us, or the Lord may appear in the skies. We live our lives knowing this. We don't take the approach "well, I'm not going to have to stand before the throne for another ten years, I can straighten up in five and have fun now".
That, I believe, is what the passages are talking about. People who are not Christians do NOT live with that understanding. For them their death, be it accidental, or Christ's return WILL be taking them off guard. They will not be prepared to stand before the throne and give an account.
And yes, a different "furnace". Again, the difference is one of "life and death". Or, perhaps the perspective is better viewed in terms of temporal and eternal. Here in life we do things that have...weight...on the next life, the eternal life. But these actions are not judgement in and of themselves. While our actions and lives might come under tribulation and 'refining fire' to test us, it is not 'eternal judgement'. On one hand the bible speaks of Christians enduring trials and tribulations, of having their works tested by fire in order for them to grow in their faith and trust in the Lord, and then on the other hand it speaks about the 'fiery furnace' of eternal punishment away from God, a place of "darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth". These two images are very different. The first is for the ongoing walk of the Christian, to help encourage even as it refines. The other warns in very serious language about the dangers of rejecting God.

‘it shall be at an instant suddenly’
Isaiah 29:5-6 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly. [6] Thou shalt be visited of the Lord of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

it is the ‘dissolve’ ...to burn, noise, tempest with a storm ...Fiery trial yet are you saying the furnace of fire they are thrown into and Then His brightness shines forth, becomes literal flames in the end burning? Help me understand what burns up the chaff or whom He destroys(dissolves) with the brightness of His coming. How today we speak of storms and tempest and noise and a roaring ...where He speaks ‘Peace be still‘ becomes something else?

To be perfectly honest, I don't know if it WILL be literal flame. It certainly sounds like it could be, but I don't know that we need to insist upon it. What I think we need to take literally from those passages is that they clearly speak of an eternal consequence of rejecting God and rebelling against him. We must remember the very great cost of such cosmic treason: the death of a divine Son. Those of us ransomed are only done so by such precious blood. For those who reject such a gift....as terrifying as the thought is, and as hard as the doctrine is, still we must recognize both God's right, and need to uphold his divine Justice of such a weight.

That may not help you understand, but I hope it has...a little.

 

[Davy]

Sounds as if you Willy Nilly have rearranged the Order. Not buying that perception.

You would have to know the meaning of the events to know what order they are in first in order to say that I rearranged them. And since you heed the theories of Pre-tribulationalists, that means you don't know what the order of the events are per God's Word, but only an order per men's traditions.

 

[Taken]

Everyone who teaches a Pre-trib Rapture.

The only ones I have ever seen posting Two Returns is those who Do Not Believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture.

Maybe you could post a quote of any Pre-Trib Rapture Believer posting Two Returns...

Thanks,
Taken

 

[Naomi25]

The only ones I have ever seen posting Two Returns is those who Do Not Believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture.

Maybe you could post a quote of any Pre-Trib Rapture Believer posting Two Returns...

Thanks,
Taken

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I don't understand how this is a problem. The very nature of a "Pre-tribulational Rapture" is what makes it a 'two-return' scheme. Jesus returns "in the clouds" to gather the Church, then again 7 years later for everyone else, saint of sinner.
You can pick pretty much any one of them, its the most basic of their teachings.

 

[Davy]

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I don't understand how this is a problem. The very nature of a "Pre-tribulational Rapture" is what makes it a 'two-return' scheme. Jesus returns "in the clouds" to gather the Church, then again 7 years later for everyone else, saint of sinner.
You can pick pretty much any one of them, its the most basic of their teachings.

It's because a 'two-return' scheme is not what Pre-trib teaches, because Christ's 1st coming was when He came to die on the cross.

1. 4 B.C. - Christ's 1st coming
2. rapture prior to trib - a Pre-tribulationist teaching by men
3. Christ's 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28)

The reality per God's written Word though, is that only 2 advents (comings) of Christ are written of.

1. 4 B.C. - Christ's 1st coming to die on the cross.
2. future 2nd coming after the tribulation

 

[Naomi25]

It's because a 'two-return' scheme is not what Pre-trib teaches, because Christ's 1st coming was when He came to die on the cross.

1. 4 B.C. - Christ's 1st coming
2. rapture prior to trib - a Pre-tribulationist teaching by men
3. Christ's 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28)

The reality per God's written Word though, is that only 2 advents (comings) of Christ are written of.

1. 4 B.C. - Christ's 1st coming to die on the cross.
2. future 2nd coming after the tribulation

I fully agree that scripture teaches a two-return of Christ: the first advent being his coming to die on the cross, and his second when he returns in judgment and to make all things new.

However, what the Pre-tribs teach for this final stage in history, is nothing short of a "two-phase" return. They may want to get nit-picky over how they classify the Rapture; they might want to fiddle with the term 'return' since he doesn't actually "touch down"...call it a 'return-lite'....but let's face it, that's what they're teaching. They are pulling verses from scripture that specifically speak of his 'coming' and applying it to a 'return' 7 years before his coming in judgement. So. 2-phase return.

 

[Davy]

I fully agree that scripture teaches a two-return of Christ: the first advent being his coming to die on the cross, and his second when he returns in judgment and to make all things new.

However, what the Pre-tribs teach for this final stage in history, is nothing short of a "two-phase" return. They may want to get nit-picky over how they classify the Rapture; they might want to fiddle with the term 'return' since he doesn't actually "touch down"...call it a 'return-lite'....but let's face it, that's what they're teaching. They are pulling verses from scripture that specifically speak of his 'coming' and applying it to a 'return' 7 years before his coming in judgement. So. 2-phase return.

Yes, I know they teach a "two-phase" return, but that idea is not written in God's Word. Pre-tribulationists insert a rapture prior to the tribulation that is not written.