John Darby

[Truther]

Yes, I know they teach a "two-phase" return, but that idea is not written in God's Word. Pre-tribulationists insert a rapture prior to the tribulation that is not written.

As I said in my previous post, I do agree there are many parallels. However, this is not one of them. The 'snatching away' referred to in these two passages, refer to two different sorts of people; in Matthew it is speaking of those under judgement, and in Thessalonians, it is, indeed, speaking of those being caught up to meet the Lord.
And to back this up, I'll show you how I get there.
When we read Matthew 24, we see this:

For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. -Matthew 24:37–42

To really get the gist of this passage, we jump over to Luke and read it's parallel in that gospel:

Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all..
so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed...
I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.”-Luke 17:26–27,30,34-35

We see the commonality in these passages. And we can ask, and answer some simple questions. Who are the ones destroyed? The wicked. Who are the ones "swept away"? The wicked. It is the wicked who are 'taken'...but they are taken to judgement, not to Rapture. In fact, Matt 13, the parable of the weeds, teaches this as well. Both the righteous and wicked 'grow together' in the Kingdom of the Son. But at the end of the age, when the harvest comes, the 'wicked' are gathered first, taken to judgement and fire.

Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” -Matthew 13:30
He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. -Matthew 13:37–43

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.



Now look who gets taken to be with the Lord the rest of the way....



37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.(remember this verse til the end...)

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken(removed), and the other left.(to die)

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken(removed), and the other left.(to die)

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.(the thief comes to remove the good stuff)

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Now the dialogue with His disciples continues....


Matthew 25
25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise,(taken) and five were foolish.(left behind)

3 They that were foolish(left behind) took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise(taken) took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish(left behind) said unto the wise(taken), Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage(saved taken) and the door was shut.(God shut the door on the ark in Gen. 7..Noah was removed just like the virgins and the sinners are left behind to die)

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.(this is what happened to the sinners that died in the flood also....24:37)

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Jesus is coming like a thief to take his prized possession..the BRIDE.

The flood took sinners to destruction....The Lord takes His saints to heaven!

 

[Davy]

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.



Now look who gets taken to be with the Lord the rest of the way....



37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.(remember this verse til the end...)

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken(removed), and the other left.(to die)

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken(removed), and the other left.(to die)

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.(the thief comes to remove the good stuff)

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Now the dialogue with His disciples continues....


Matthew 25
25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise,(taken) and five were foolish.(left behind)

3 They that were foolish(left behind) took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise(taken) took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish(left behind) said unto the wise(taken), Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage(saved taken) and the door was shut.(God shut the door on the ark in Gen. 7..Noah was removed just like the virgins and the sinners are left behind to die)

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.(this is what happened to the sinners that died in the flood also....24:37)

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Jesus is coming like a thief to take his prized possession..the BRIDE.

The flood took sinners to destruction....The Lord takes His saints to heaven!

You poor soul, you failed to read our Lord Jesus' warning...

Luke 17:33-37
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

The first one 'taken' is NOT to our Lord Jesus!

Eagles don't normally go after an already dead carcase, but vultures do. Christ's disciples asked Him "Where, Lord?" about those first one's 'taken'. And that was His Answer. It is a WARNING against being the first one 'taken', and the reason is because the first supernatural one coming will be the Antichrist claiming to be Messiah.

 

[Truther]

You poor soul, you failed to read our Lord Jesus' warning...

Luke 17:33-37
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

The first one 'taken' is NOT to our Lord Jesus!

Eagles don't normally go after an already dead carcase, but vultures do. Christ's disciples asked Him "Where, Lord?" about those first one's 'taken'. And that was His Answer. It is a WARNING against being the first one 'taken', and the reason is because the first supernatural one coming will be the Antichrist claiming to be Messiah.

Oh, so only sinners are taken and never saints?


Now, it is time for you to see this next fact. You have never seen it in your life.

Paul, in 1 Thes 4, quotes Jesus in Matt 24.....



Paul quotes what Jesus already spoke of prior(notice "WE SAY" as in the Apostles say, not just Paul)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.(common knowledge)


The catching away parallel...

Matt 24:40

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

1 Thes. 4:15

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The thief parallel.....
MATT

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

1 THES

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


MATT

The drunken servant parallel....

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

1 THES

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.


Notice the SEQUENCIAL parallels of the 2 passages.

Accidental or coincidence?

I dont think so.


Your eagle thingy is debunked.

 

[Naomi25]

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Now look who gets taken to be with the Lord the rest of the way....
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.(remember this verse til the end...)

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken(removed), and the other left.(to die)

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken(removed), and the other left.(to die)

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.(the thief comes to remove the good stuff)

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Now the dialogue with His disciples continues....


Matthew 25
25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

2 And five of them were wise,(taken) and five were foolish.(left behind)

3 They that were foolish(left behind) took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

4 But the wise(taken) took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish(left behind) said unto the wise(taken), Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage(saved taken) and the door was shut.(God shut the door on the ark in Gen. 7..Noah was removed just like the virgins and the sinners are left behind to die)

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.(this is what happened to the sinners that died in the flood also....24:37)

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Jesus is coming like a thief to take his prized possession..the BRIDE.

The flood took sinners to destruction....The Lord takes His saints to heaven!

Um. Just because you insert your own understanding behind God's word doesn't mean that's what the context of the passage means. The grammar of those specific passages lean them towards the taken being taken to judgement.
The passage of the 10 virgins is a different parable and a different analogy employed. It's found after Matt24:31 when we're told Christ and his angels will come and collect his elect.

 

[farouk]

Um. Just because you insert your own understanding behind God's word doesn't mean that's what the context of the passage means. The grammar of those specific passages lean them towards the taken being taken to judgement.
The passage of the 10 virgins is a different parable and a different analogy employed. It's found after Matt24:31 when we're told Christ and his angels will come and collect his elect.

@Naomi25 Do you see that in Matthew 24 the context may refer to tribulation saints?

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Do you see that in Matthew 24 the context may refer to tribulation saints?

I very much doubt that it does.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -Matthew 24:29–31

We see here that As all the nations see Christ return, it is with angelic presence, a trumpet blast, and then the elect will be gathered. Firstly, we must note that there is nothing specifying that the elect being gathered here are only "tribulation Saints". That is, by necessity, an understanding inserted by a preconceived notion of when the Rapture must occur and who, therefore, must remain after that.
The second thing to note is the things present at Christ's return. Because we see them elsewhere in scripture, and in passages that are boldly used to support a Pre-trib Rapture.

in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. -1 Corinthians 15:52

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first...Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.-1 Thessalonians 4:16-17



If we can see the same elements of either trumpet blast or angelic presence described in what is clearly the "Rapture" event, then what gives us specific leave to insist that Matt 24:29-31 MUST be his second return after the Tribulation, which is only for 'tribulation saints'? Especially when, in the logical reading of Matt 24, it would seem you must, by force, read it back to front. Verses 3-31 seems to be speaking of something you insist must happen after the Rapture, while verses 32-51; 25:1-12 are in the lead up to the Rapture, but then 25:14-46 seem to jump after the Rapture again.
It simply is not a clear or literal reading of the passage.
And again, the whole idea of "Tribulation Saints" is one not found in scripture. There is not a single verse in the bible that can account for a division between Christians of the body of Christ: the Church, and these so called 'Tribulation Saints'. The argument that the term 'church' is not found in Revelation, while the term 'saints' is, is about the weakest there is. There are many NT books that use the phrase 'Saints' in reference to members of the Church. And many NT books that also do not reference the Church by name. No one is claiming that the Church has been mystically whisked off the earth in any of those books, only to be replaced by 'Saints'. My point is: "Tribulation Saints" is a phrase and idea solely invented so that people can justify the absence of the Church during a specific period of time. But the bible does not differentiate between the two; ever. And without that difference, it leaves the argument on shaky ground.

 

[Taken]

Why? Probably because scripture also says it:

and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” -Acts 1:11

Yes.
It was , Son of man, called Jesus, who came to Earth.
It was, Son of man, Jesus, who left the Earth. It is, Son of Man, Jesus who shall Return to Earth.

And if you doubt that Jesus is also The Christ, the Messiah of God, then you are mistaken, because the bible also says that.

I never said any such thing.

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. -John 17:1–3

Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” -Acts 2:36

So, you don't see the "Son of Man" as God?

I see the ORDER of Scriptural teaching.
I see...the Word of God, is a Holy Thing.
I see...God SENT His Word To Earth.
I see...Gods Word was sent in the Likeness
...........AS a man.
I see...the Word of God, was revealed,
...........AS a Son of Man.
I see...God Declared, the Faithful, His Son.
I see....the Son of God,
...........IS Gods Christ Messiah.
I KNOW...Gods Christ Messiah IS God.
I KNOW...the Son of Man, came to Earth.
I KNOW...the Son of Man, left Earth.
I KNOW...the Son of Man, Returns to Earth.

Matt.25
[13] Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

What I see is that you've essentially made two separate characters: the 'Son of Man', and 'the Christ'. My question to you is: who is who?

The point is what All men can See and What Some men Know .

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I don't understand how this is a problem. The very nature of a "Pre-tribulational Rapture" is what makes it a 'two-return' scheme. Jesus returns "in the clouds" to gather the Church, then again 7 years later for everyone else, saint of sinner.
You can pick pretty much any one of them, its the most basic of their teachings.

Two Return is your conclusion...but Not what A pre-Trib Rapture says.

That was my point.
Why is "Your Conclusion"...relevant for what an other DOES NOT say?

The Lord...descends From Heaven...[/B] To the Clouds. [/B]

1 Thes. 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Why are you Confused, Not Knowing Clouds Are NOT...Earth?

Here is the Scripture which TELLS you, What EARTH is:
Gen 1:
[10] And God called the dry land Earth;

Please Explain your TWO Returns to Earth.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Naomi25]

Yes.
It was , Son of man, called Jesus, who came to Earth.
It was, Son of man, Jesus, who left the Earth. It is, Son of Man, Jesus who shall Return to Earth.



I never said any such thing.





I see the ORDER of Scriptural teaching.
I see...the Word of God, is a Holy Thing.
I see...God SENT His Word To Earth.
I see...Gods Word was sent in the Likeness
...........AS a man.
I see...the Word of God, was revealed,
...........AS a Son of Man.
I see...God Declared, the Faithful, His Son.
I see....the Son of God,
...........IS Gods Christ Messiah.
I KNOW...Gods Christ Messiah IS God.
I KNOW...the Son of Man, came to Earth.
I KNOW...the Son of Man, left Earth.
I KNOW...the Son of Man, Returns to Earth.

Matt.25
[13] Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.



The point is what All men can See and What Some men Know .

Glory to God,
Taken

In general parlance, what is seen is considered known. Hence, every instance of "I see", can have substituted "I know", making all the statements equivalent without loss of meaning. Therefore the question is: what do you mean by "I know"; everything else seems irrelevant.

 

[Naomi25]

Two Return is your conclusion...but Not what A pre-Trib Rapture says.

That was my point.
Why is "Your Conclusion"...relevant for what an other DOES NOT say?

The Lord...descends From Heaven...[/B] To the Clouds. [/B]

1 Thes. 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Why are you Confused, Not Knowing Clouds Are NOT...Earth?

Here is the Scripture which TELLS you, What EARTH is:
Gen 1:
[10] And God called the dry land Earth;

Please Explain your TWO Returns to Earth.


Glory to God,
Taken

So...you're saying that Christ's 'descent' into the clouds here on earth to gather all the Christians to him, is NOT to be considered, in any way, a "return"? Is that right?
Even though he has, strictly, left his place by the Father's side to do this, and even though the bible speaks (as the Pre-tribs would argue) of this event AS a return.
You know what this 'argument' is? Sophistry. Plain and simple, no wiggling around it.
If you don't like it, look at your own system.

 

[Taken]

You would have to know the meaning of the events to know what order they are in first in order to say that I rearranged them. And since you heed the theories of Pre-tribulationalists, that means you don't know what the order of the events are per God's Word, but only an order per men's traditions.

Davy - post # 195

7th Trumpet, 7th Vial, 6th Seal -- time of Christ's return and His cup of wrath, the "day of the Lord".

SEALS are First- and then Trumps.
*
Rev 8
[1] And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

* AFTER the Seventh Seal is Opened...THEN, are Angels GIVEN TRUMPETS.

(In other words...trumpets can NOT be sounded until The Angels Are Given the Trumpets TO Sound them!)

Rev 8
[2] And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

[6] And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

[7] The first angel sounded,

Last 3 Trumpets - Woes in order, 5th just prior to the start of the tribulation; 6th is the tribulation; 7th is Jesus' coming.

You completely skipped...
The opening and results of the opened SEALS are the Wrath are the Lamb.

Rev 6:
[16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
[17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 8
[1] And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Christ's return and His cup of wrath,

It is the Son of man that Shall Return.

Matt 24:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Christ's return and His cup of wrath,

There is no Christ's cup of Wrath.

[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation;

Taken

 

[Taken]

In general parlance, what is seen is considered known. Hence, every instance of "I see", can have substituted "I know", making all the statements equivalent without loss of meaning. Therefore the question is: what do you mean by "I know"; everything else seems irrelevant.

Can you SEE God? No.
Can you KNOW God is God without SEEING Him? Yes.

Can men SEE, Jesus, the Son of man? Yes.
Can men SEE, Christ, who IS God? No.

If it were Christ "Returning"...
( as you said, but Scripture doesn't)
WHO could SEE Him? No one.

Rev 1
[ 7] Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

How do you KNOW Jesus IS the Christ?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

So...you're saying that Christ's 'descent' into the clouds here on earth to gather all the Christians to him, is NOT to be considered, in any way, a "return"? Is that right?

Yes, That IS "RIGHT".

Even though he has, strictly, left his place by the Father's side to do this,

He?
Are you Again, speaking of "Christ" ???

Because Scripture CLEARLY says:

John 3:
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in Heaven.

Luke 22:
[69] Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

and even though the bible speaks (as the Pre-tribs would argue) of this event AS a return.

uh no. That IS YOU saying TWO Returns.

You know what this 'argument' is? Sophistry. Plain and simple, no wiggling around it.
If you don't like it, look at your own system.

Of course I do NOT like a fallacious argument.

You Claim it is pre-Trib Rapture believers who Are claiming TWO Returns...
That IS Your "fallacious argument".

You are making a "fallacious argument"...
Against What? What YOU have claimed!

Not ONCE have you quoted ANY Rapture Believer....claiming TWO Returns.

Your argument is ONLY YOU arguing Against yourself....while Deceptively Pretending you are arguing Against a Rapture Believers claims.

What YOU are doing is the very definition of
Sophistry!!

You claimed Christ Returns.
You said Scripture says that.
But you Did not Give Scripture backing up your claim.
I gave you Scripture showing you it is the Son of man, that came, left, and Shall Return.

I believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture of those IN Christ Meeting the Lord in the Clouds/ Air.

You don't believe that.
Has no effect on me, what you believe.

But then you Lie, and say I believe in Two Returns.
And that IS a Lie, Because I Never said any such thing.

I reveal the Obvious...
Clouds and Earth are Not the same thing.
The Lord descending to the Clouds...IS Not a The Son of man Returning to Earth.

Your made up claim of Two Returns is a Lie.

Your accusations toward Rapture Believers Is a Lie.

Stop blaming YOUR MADE up nonsense on Rapture believers! <--- That is Deception!
You own that deception.

Taken

 

[Taken]

For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. -Matthew 24:37–42

To really get the gist of this passage, we jump over to Luke and read it's parallel in that gospel:

Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all..
so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed...
I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.”-Luke 17:26–27,30,34-35

We see the commonality in these passages. And we can ask, and answer some simple questions. Who are the ones destroyed? The wicked. Who are the ones "swept away"? The wicked. It is the wicked who are 'taken'...but they are taken to judgement, not to Rapture.

Convenient -
you have the "Destroyed" figured out.
You have the "Swept away" figured out.
You have the "Taken" (you call wicked) figured out.

Guess you have figured out...what applies TO ALL men.... eh No!

In Noah's Day ...Eight souls were Saved...
From Destruction
From Being Swept Away


Gen 7: (8...add them up)
[7] And Noah (1) went in, and his sons, (3) and his wife, (1) and his sons' wives (3) with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

Gen 7: (Where did the water go? Upon the Earth!)
[10] And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were [/B] upon the earth.[/B]

Gen 7: (Where did the Ark, with 8 Souls go?)
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and [/B] the waters[/B] increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Gen 7: (where exactly were 8 Saved souls, during destruction ON the Earth?
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.

Luke 17:
[26] And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

So How was it in the days of Noah?

Saved souls were LIFTED UP Above the Earth... while Destruction was Happening ON Earth!

So shall Saved souls BE LiFTED UP Above the Earth... while Destruction is happening ON Earth!

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead IN Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive (IN Christ) and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Are you aware Those IN Christ ARE the SAVED Souls?

Do you comprehend...
It was Saved Souls that WERE lifted UP, Above the Earth, while the Earth was being Destroyed? (With Water)

Do you comprehend...
It SHALL be Again Saved Souls lifted UP, Above the Earth, while the Earth is Again being Destroyed? (With Gods Gods Power? Fire, Burning, Earthquakes, mountains falling, crops consumed with insects, rivers turning to Blood, Buildings falling, etc.)

Really? You are going to Remain ON Earth...??
And escape 1/3 of the world's Trees Burning (cough cough the smoke!), mountains and rocks falling, (ouchie!), no food to eat (men die without food after 3-4 weeks), no water to Drink, (men die within a week without water to drink)....
* Oh and not to Forget...it's such a pleasant experience During the Destruction of the Earth....God Will Not Let men Die!!)

Rev 9:
[6] And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

I'll stick with, Scripture, knowing the Saved (which I am), ARE Lifted UP above the Earth, while the Earth is Being Destroyed.

And so, you, it seems shall get to experience being ON Earth during its Destruction...
Is that your claim?

Taken

 

[Taken]

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Forever in the clouds?

Does Scripture say the Lord is Forever in the Clouds?

Taken

 

[Truther]

Um. Just because you insert your own understanding behind God's word doesn't mean that's what the context of the passage means. The grammar of those specific passages lean them towards the taken being taken to judgement.
The passage of the 10 virgins is a different parable and a different analogy employed. It's found after Matt24:31 when we're told Christ and his angels will come and collect his elect.

Matthew 24-25 was the same instance. Jesus continued to explain the "taking" of both sinners AND saints in chapter 25.

 

[Truther]

Does Scripture say the Lord is Forever in the Clouds?

Taken

Yes, it is in all the cartoons....LOL

 

[Taken]

Yes, it is in all the cartoons....LOL

I don't have my Faith in a Cartoonist.

Taken

 

[Truther]

I don't have my Faith in a Cartoonist.

Taken

lol

 

[farouk]

I very much doubt that it does.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -Matthew 24:29–31

We see here that As all the nations see Christ return, it is with angelic presence, a trumpet blast, and then the elect will be gathered. Firstly, we must note that there is nothing specifying that the elect being gathered here are only "tribulation Saints". That is, by necessity, an understanding inserted by a preconceived notion of when the Rapture must occur and who, therefore, must remain after that.
The second thing to note is the things present at Christ's return. Because we see them elsewhere in scripture, and in passages that are boldly used to support a Pre-trib Rapture.

in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. -1 Corinthians 15:52

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first...Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.-1 Thessalonians 4:16-17



If we can see the same elements of either trumpet blast or angelic presence described in what is clearly the "Rapture" event, then what gives us specific leave to insist that Matt 24:29-31 MUST be his second return after the Tribulation, which is only for 'tribulation saints'? Especially when, in the logical reading of Matt 24, it would seem you must, by force, read it back to front. Verses 3-31 seems to be speaking of something you insist must happen after the Rapture, while verses 32-51; 25:1-12 are in the lead up to the Rapture, but then 25:14-46 seem to jump after the Rapture again.
It simply is not a clear or literal reading of the passage.
And again, the whole idea of "Tribulation Saints" is one not found in scripture. There is not a single verse in the bible that can account for a division between Christians of the body of Christ: the Church, and these so called 'Tribulation Saints'. The argument that the term 'church' is not found in Revelation, while the term 'saints' is, is about the weakest there is. There are many NT books that use the phrase 'Saints' in reference to members of the Church. And many NT books that also do not reference the Church by name. No one is claiming that the Church has been mystically whisked off the earth in any of those books, only to be replaced by 'Saints'. My point is: "Tribulation Saints" is a phrase and idea solely invented so that people can justify the absence of the Church during a specific period of time. But the bible does not differentiate between the two; ever. And without that difference, it leaves the argument on shaky ground.

@Naomi25 A lot would probably depend on whether the reader sees in Scripture a difference between the church and Israel, and so the perception of a framework of related events would also be influenced.