Who are the Saints?

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farouk

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Yes, that's right. I think so also. At the same time, though, I often wondered, as the original post suggests, whether Paul came up with another word other than "believer" to describe those who follow Jesus.

Many of us wish we had another word to use because we have all witnessed "believers in name only." The term "saint" or "holy one" seems to connote a higher calling, someone who truly and actually believes what Jesus said and attempts with heart, soul, mind, and spirit to obey God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

I don't know. It's as if Paul assumes that "believers in name only" wouldn't be interested in what he has to say. So he writes to the "saints" instead.
But I am speculating here. I don't know this to be a fact.
The Lord Jesus in the parable of the sower speaks of those who 'for while believe' but have no root; the implication being that the appearance of faith is only outward and superficial (Luke 8.13).
 

marks

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But a saint is no Holier than any other believer, they are not chosen by merit, But by divine choice
Hi David,

Do you see the same thing for salvation itself? That all are chosen by God, and not for any humanly known reason?

Much love!
 

farouk

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Hi David,

Do you see the same thing for salvation itself? That all are chosen by God, and not for any humanly known reason?

Much love!
Ephesians chapters 1 and 2 - and John 6 - seem strongly to indicate that the initiative comes from Divine grace.
 

Hidden In Him

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How does one belong to the Lord outside of His presence in them?

Much love!

Think of it as different levels of intimacy between a husband and wife. With some marriages she is still his wife, but they are not really that close.
 

marks

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Think of it as different levels of intimacy between a husband and wife. With some marriages she is still his wife, but they are not really that close.
But what I mean is that either we have the Holy Spirit, Christ in me, or not, being born again, or not.

I will continue to maintain that we access the fulness of Christ by faith Right Now.

Much love!
 
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Hidden In Him

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But what I mean is that either we have the Holy Spirit, Christ in me, or not, being born again, or not.

Yes. I know. :)
I will continue to maintain that we access the fulness of Christ by faith Right Now.

I will continue to maintain that although better friends now, we would still fight over this one like cats and dogs, Lol.
 
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Davy

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Someone else here had a post that asked, "Who are the elect?" This is a partly a response to that post and a post unto itself.

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: (Eph. 1:1)

Could it be that what most of Protestantism has been taught an error, that all believers are saints? Let me explain a little. As a reaction to the false veneration of the saints by the Roman Catholic church, Martin Luther and other reformers wanted no part in this and did away with this distinction. With the exception of some anglican churches most of Protestantism still holds to the teaching that all believers are saints. But is this what the Bible states. The verse quoted above seems to indicate there are 2 groups within the church, those who are faithful in Christ Jesus, and those who are Saints. If this is true, then what are the implications of this as seen in the book of revelation, where at a certain point the church ceases to be mentioned, yet the saints continue to be mentioned?

Some have come to create a whole new class of People, a phrase not mentioned in scripture called the "tribulation saints", But what if this is wrong?

A Little study on the concept of saints.... first used to describe the priests and sons of Aaron, the word saint in Hebrew refers to those who have been separated and called out of the whole to service to the LORD. They are consecrated and Holy unto Him. Not all of Israel was the saints, only those who were Levites did this title apply. Even Moses was not called a saint, but Aaron was. This distinction can be seen in Hosea 11:12 as well where it says: " but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints." As well as Psalm 106:16 "They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint of the LORD." Notice the singular is applied in the last verse, which means only Aaron is called the saint. Notice in the first verse the faithful in Judah are allied with the saints but are not the saints themselves.

So what then Makes one a Saint? I will leave this open ended for now to see what people think, But if this is true, how does this distinction affect things like eschatology, and even predestination and the sovereignty of God?

Trying to make the word 'saint' into a special class distinction is ludicrous, a prime example of how Biblically ignorant men's doctrines are. Trying to use God's Word to support such an idea is even more ludicrous.

The only reason the Pre-trib Rapture doctors came up with their 'tribulation saints' idea is because of their need to find support for their false Pre-tribulational Rapture Theory.

Same thing with John Darby's Dispensationalism which has duped many. Since his basis was a false pre-trib rapture of the Church, all the Old Testament Scripture about the restoration of Israel back to promised lands God gave their fathers, had to find a meaning to fit the pre-trib theory. So he speculated that the nation of Israel will be established on earth during Christ's future Millennial, while the Church reigns from Heaven with Jesus. That idea of course is not written in God's Word. It was created to help support the false pre-trib rapture theory, just like the false 'tribulation saints' idea was too. Christ's Church will go through the tribulation too, because Jesus does not come to gather His Church until the trib is over, like He said in His Olivet discourse.
 

David H.

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Hi David,

I've heard this idea before, and when I've explored the concept, I've found that whatever is offered to designate between a "saint" and a "faithful", I have so far found that the Bible applies it to both.

I've come to see this issued contained in the matter of what are reconciliation and justification are. When we see these being in Christ alone, there is no distinction between saints and faithful. When you come to faith, God sets you apart.

Much love!
The Only Difference between the faithful and the saints is the choosing of God. Just like not all are called to be prophets and teachers, only some are. If there is one epistle that is directly addressed to the saints it is 2 Peter which opens with those who have Obtained (By Lot) a faith similar to the apostles faith. Now saving faith is not something we obtain by divine lot but by hearing the Word of God. So this faith is different from the saving faith. This passage then goes on to speak of making your ELECTION and calling sure. Which means this faith is based on election, and predestination.

The picture I have been given of a saint is the one who stands in the Gap between the faithful and those who would persecute the faithful. Like the Guy in Tianamen square who stood in the path of a column of tanks some years back. Like Polycarp who was martyred for the Church of Smyrna, Or how Deitrich Boenhoeffer stood up against Nazism. It is this sort of faith that will overcome the devil and get him cast down from heaven where he accuses the brethren as Prophesied in Revelation 12:10-11. This is the endurance of the saints, many are called, but few are chosen for this calling and purpose. And Much like the stoning of Stephen had Christ's attention in heaven so too every death of the saints is numbered till the number is fulfilled spoken of in the fifth seal.

Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints. (Psalm 116:15)

Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers[fn] should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (Rev. 6:11, ESV)

He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. (Rev. 13:10)

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. (Rev. 17:14)​
 

David H.

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With respect but I see this a smoke screen.

Where is the mocking?
The above Quote is the answer.

When Someone posts a topic here do you always call it a smokescreen? Especially if you do not agree? Wouldn't it be better to just interact with topic instead of labeling it as a smokescreen? This is no different than what we see on university campuses when conservatives like Charlie Kirk or Dinesh D'Souza come on campus and they boycott the events and come into them and call them racist without interacting with the facts.

I am sorry but I have no respect for this sort of SJW attitude. Others here have given good rebuttals and if I had time I would answer them all, but try to at least answer some which have similar concerns to others. I am not trying to dictate what you should believe I would rather you discover the truth of what scripture says by studying this yourself. Lay aside your preconceived beliefs (doctrines of men) and let the Holy Ghost teach you through the Word of God, as some are trying to do here. The worst that will happen is that you will discover that you have a higher calling in Christ Jesus than you thought you did, and that there really is no difference between the leaders of the church and the Laity as some like to distinguish between... And in turn Nicolaitanism, which Jesus says he hates, will be thwarted.

There is depth of understanding here that will open the significance of what it means to come to the fulness of Christ (Eph 4:13) that I am trying to bring here, Where Christ is the head, and He is our all in all. When Rightly understood this is a great blessing to all believers, whether new born or Elder as it will show them direction and the path to Holiness, Instead of getting caught in the mire of legalism and lawlessness.
 

David H.

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Hi David,

Do you see the same thing for salvation itself? That all are chosen by God, and not for any humanly known reason?

Much love!

Saving faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. (Romans 10:17) The question is, is hearing a choice we make or is it a choice God makes for us by his grace? I Believe an unregenerate person will choose to hear, Thus whosoever will may come to the fountain and be cleansed and saved. For the unregenerated, seeking is the key. Many seek in the wrong places because they have not heard the Gospel of Truth, so they seek it in men and other false religions. But that Empty place in their heart is never satisfied till they find Christ and His Spirit comes into them, God with us, Emmanuel. The free gift of salvation is for all, and the problem is that not all have heard.

Becoming a saint is entirely of the LORD's choosing. In His foreknowledge he prepares them for a time when they will give their Testimony, Just like Stephen before the councils of His day did and they stoned him for it. Why was Stephen More full of the Holy Ghost than the others chosen to serve? Because the LORD had prepared him ahead of time for this role. It is not that the others were lesser, But that he had a higher calling.
 

Truman

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Someone else here had a post that asked, "Who are the elect?" This is a partly a response to that post and a post unto itself.

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: (Eph. 1:1)

Could it be that what most of Protestantism has been taught an error, that all believers are saints? Let me explain a little. As a reaction to the false veneration of the saints by the Roman Catholic church, Martin Luther and other reformers wanted no part in this and did away with this distinction. With the exception of some anglican churches most of Protestantism still holds to the teaching that all believers are saints. But is this what the Bible states. The verse quoted above seems to indicate there are 2 groups within the church, those who are faithful in Christ Jesus, and those who are Saints. If this is true, then what are the implications of this as seen in the book of revelation, where at a certain point the church ceases to be mentioned, yet the saints continue to be mentioned?

Some have come to create a whole new class of People, a phrase not mentioned in scripture called the "tribulation saints", But what if this is wrong?

A Little study on the concept of saints.... first used to describe the priests and sons of Aaron, the word saint in Hebrew refers to those who have been separated and called out of the whole to service to the LORD. They are consecrated and Holy unto Him. Not all of Israel was the saints, only those who were Levites did this title apply. Even Moses was not called a saint, but Aaron was. This distinction can be seen in Hosea 11:12 as well where it says: " but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints." As well as Psalm 106:16 "They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint of the LORD." Notice the singular is applied in the last verse, which means only Aaron is called the saint. Notice in the first verse the faithful in Judah are allied with the saints but are not the saints themselves.

So what then Makes one a Saint? I will leave this open ended for now to see what people think, But if this is true, how does this distinction affect things like eschatology, and even predestination and the sovereignty of God?
Hi. This is how I see it. First, draw a little circle. Jesus is in it. Draw a slightly larger circle and put the 5-fold ministries in it. Draw an even larger circle around the first 2 and put the saints in it. Draw a larger circle and put the body in it. Outside of this is the world. The closer one's function is to Christ, the more stringent one's purification will be.
"Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, to prepare the saints of God for works of service, that the body of Christ will be built up until we all reach unity in faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, and become mature." Ephesians 4: 11-13
The apostle is the highest spiritual gift while the teacher is the most important. Whatever one's gifting is, when God puts them into it they should know that they are exactly where they're supposed to be. There'll be nothing more that they want to do.
We are all one and nobody is any better or worse than anybody else. God has made us the way He has due to Him having specific purposes for each one of us.
If you are interested, I read an excellent book on this subject called, "The Complete Wineskin." The author's name is Herbert Eberle. It helped me a lot. Shalom.
 

marks

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Saving faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. (Romans 10:17) The question is, is hearing a choice we make or is it a choice God makes for us by his grace? I Believe an unregenerate person will choose to hear, Thus whosoever will may come to the fountain and be cleansed and saved. For the unregenerated, seeking is the key. Many seek in the wrong places because they have not heard the Gospel of Truth, so they seek it in men and other false religions. But that Empty place in their heart is never satisfied till they find Christ and His Spirit comes into them, God with us, Emmanuel. The free gift of salvation is for all, and the problem is that not all have heard.

Becoming a saint is entirely of the LORD's choosing. In His foreknowledge he prepares them for a time when they will give their Testimony, Just like Stephen before the councils of His day did and they stoned him for it. Why was Stephen More full of the Holy Ghost than the others chosen to serve? Because the LORD had prepared him ahead of time for this role. It is not that the others were lesser, But that he had a higher calling.
Thank you!

Do you see a difference in the final estate between the "saints" and the "faithful"? For instance, I've heard this taught where the "saints" will live in the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, while the "faithful" will not. Is this your thinking? Or what is your concept?

Much love!
 

quietthinker

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The above Quote is the answer.

When Someone posts a topic here do you always call it a smokescreen? Especially if you do not agree? Wouldn't it be better to just interact with topic instead of labeling it as a smokescreen?
I'm sorry David H, you must have mistaken me for someone else.....that, or you are out of your depth and don't really understand what you are saying.
 
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amigo de christo

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Think of it as different levels of intimacy between a husband and wife. With some marriages she is still his wife, but they are not really that close.
my friend , lets answer according to scripture . be encouraged but that really helps .
Thought realm is so dangerous . Beleive me .
Let me just put all minds at rest . ANYONE That professes not that JESUS is LORD and savoir , is in dire grave danger of the lake
that burneth with fire . or that burns with fire .
The good news , the LOVE that comes from GOD , SENT the SON that all who do BELEIEVE IN HE would be saved .
Not those who reject him and follow another god and or religoin . I just wanted to stress the dire importance of the true gosple
for us all once again . now be encouraged .
 
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marks

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Who are the saints?

Romans 1:7 "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ."

Romans is then to the "saints" only, not applicable to other believers?

1 Corinthians 1
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

This letter is to the saints in Corinth, and the believers everywhere. But what about the saints in other places?

2 Corinthians 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

To all believers in Corinth, and all the saints in the surrounding region? Not the other believes in Achaia?

Galatians 1
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

To all, apparently.

Ephesians 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

To the saints and faithful both.

Philippians 1
1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

To the saints, and the bishops and deacons. Not saints? And not to the believers or faithful.

Without going through the rest, do you see how this idea makes mincemeat of the New Testament?

Much love!
 
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David H.

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Romans 1:7 "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ."

Romans is then to the "saints" only, not applicable to other believers?

Answer: No I see "All that be in Rome, and those Beloved by God, and saints" being addressed here. Three distinct groups. Romans speaks to unbelievers and believers alike, and if you look at the structure of the book it progresses from unbelief to growing in One's belief to the ramifications of being saints. Notice that saints are not mentioned again until romans 8. I Would say roughly chapters 1 and 2 deal with unbelief, chapters 2-7 deal with believers and faith and chapter eight onward with saintliness and holiness. This does not mean a all believers should not delve into Romans 8, But rather that there is a depth of meaning that is shown to the saint in those passages that the faithful in Christ may not see, But there are lessons for all.

Without going through the rest, do you see how this idea makes mincemeat of the New Testament?

Not at all. Just because something is addressed to one group does not mean it does not apply to all. For example Paul addresses the problem in the church of Corinth directly of Holding up men whether it be Paul himself or Apollos in 1 Corinthians 3... Now we are not dealing with people today who worship Apollos, But this still applies to people who hold up denominations and isms over the Word of God, such as Calvin"ism" and Lutheran"ism" and Arminain"ism"....these are elevating men as superior and these lead to the same sort of immature debates that I am trying to stop with this post that have divided the church for centuries. An error was has been perpetuated because of the absence of this distinction between the faithful and the saints. It began with Luther who threw the baby out with the dirty bathwater of the RCC's false doctrines of the veneration of saints.

2 Peter is directly addressed to the saints alone. Yet this book still speaks to all believers. But to the saint there is a depth of meaning in that it outlines the struggles and temptations they will face in their path to full sainthood. Such as committing Balaam's error, falling into false teachings, dealing with scoffers etc.
 

marks

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This does not mean a all believers should not delve into Romans 8, But rather that there is a depth of meaning that is shown to the saint in those passages that the faithful in Christ may not see, But there are lessons for all.
Interesting!

I find Romans 8 to be a fundamental passage applicable to all believers.

I'm curious . . . do you think that adoption by God is only for "saints", but not the others who are born again?

Is the resurrection of the body only for "saints", but not the "faithful"?

Much love!
 

marks

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2 Peter is directly addressed to the saints alone. Yet this book still speaks to all believers. But to the saint there is a depth of meaning in that it outlines the struggles and temptations they will face in their path to full sainthood. Such as committing Balaam's error, falling into false teachings, dealing with scoffers etc.
I find 2 Peter again to be very fundamental to the maturing of the saints, that is, all the set apart ones, and we are set apart by being in Christ.

Here then is another question . . . Does God give different promises to the "saints" than to the "faithful"?

Much love!