1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Who are the Saints?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by David H., Sep 12, 2020.

  1. Marvelloustime

    Marvelloustime Active Member

    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    208
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Oh yes! Let the Lord be praised!
     
    amigo de christo likes this.
  2. David H.

    David H. Active Member

    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    57
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The Unknown Saints: A.W. Tozer, https://biblesnet.com/AW Tozer Man - The Dwelling Place of God.pdf
    WILLIAM WORDSWORTH IN A FINE PASSAGE states his belief that there are many more poets in the world than we suppose, ". . .men endowed with highest gifts, The vision and the faculty divine," but who are unknown because they lacked or failed to cultivate the gift of versification. Then he sums up his belief in a sentence that suggests truth far beyond any that he had in mind at the time: "Strongest minds Are often those of whom the noisy world Hears least."

    Most of us in our soberer moments would admit the soundness of this observation, but the hard fact is that for the average person it is not the findings of the sober moment that determine our total working philosophy; rather it is the shallow and deceptive notions pressed upon us by the "noisy world." Human society generally (and especially in the United States) has fallen into the error of assuming that greatness and fame are synonymous. Americans appear to take for granted that each generation provides a certain number of superior men and the democratic processes unerringly find those men and set them in a place of prominence. How wrong can people get! We have but to become acquainted with, or even listen to, the big names of our times to discover how wretchedly inferior most of them are. Many appear to have arrived at their present eminence by pull, brass, nerve, gall and lucky accident. We turn away from them sick to our stomach and wonder for a discouraged moment if this is the best the human race can produce. But we gain our self-possession again by the simple expedient of recalling some of the plain men we know, who live unheralded and unsung, and who are made of stuff infinitely finer than the hoarse-voiced braggarts who occupy too many of the highest offices in the land.

    If we would see life steadily and see it whole we must make a stern effort to break away from the power of that false philosophy that equates greatness with fame. The two may be and often are oceans and continents apart.

    If the church were a body wholly unaffected by the world we could toss the above problem over to the secular philosophers and go about our business; but the truth is that the church also suffers from this evil notion. Christians have fallen into the habit of accepting the noisiest and most notorious among them as the best and the greatest. They too have learned to equate popularity with excellence, and in open defiance of the Sermon on the Mount they have given their approval not to the meek but to the self-assertive; not to the mourner but to the self-assured; not to the pure in heart who see God but to the publicity hunter who seeks headlines. If we might paraphrase Wordsworth we could make his lines run, "Purest saints Are often those of whom the noisy church Hears least," and the words would be true, deeply, wonderfully true.

    After more than thirty years of observing the religious scene I have been forced to conclude that saintliness and church leadership are not often synonymous. I have on many occasions preached to grateful Christians who had gone so much farther than I had into the sweet mysteries of God that I actually felt unworthy to tie their shoe laces. Yet they sat meekly listening while one inferior to them stood in the place of prominence and declared imperfectly truths with which they had long been familiar by intimate and beautiful experience. They must have known and felt how much of theory and how little of real heart knowledge there was in the sermon, but they said nothing and no doubt appreciated what little of good there was in the message.

    Were the church a pure and Spirit-filled body, wholly led and directed by spiritual considerations, certainly the purest and the saintliest men and women would be the ones most appreciated and most honored; but the opposite is true. Godliness is no longer valued, except for the very old or the very dead. The saintly souls are forgotten in the whirl of religious activity. The noisy, the self-assertive, the entertaining are sought after and rewarded in every way, with gifts, crowds, offerings and publicity. The Christ-like, the self-forgetting, the other-worldly are jostled aside to make room for the latest converted playboy who is usually not too well converted and still very much of a playboy.

    The whole short-sighted philosophy that ignores eternal qualities and majors on trivialities is a form of unbelief. These Christians who embody such a philosophy are clamoring after present reward; they are too impatient to wait the Lord's time. They will not abide the day when Christ shall make known the secret of every man's heart and reward each one according to his deeds. The true saint sees farther than this; he cares little for passing values; he looks forward eagerly to the day when eternal things shall come into their own and godliness will be found to be all that matters.

    Strange as it may be, the holiest souls who have ever lived have earned the reputation for being pessimistic. Their smiling indifference to the world's attractions and their steady resistance to its temptations have been misunderstood by shallow thinkers and attributed to an unsocial spirit and a lack of love for mankind. What the world failed to see was that these peculiar men and women were beholding a city invisible; they were walking day by day in the light of another and eternal kingdom. They were already tasting the powers of the world to come and enjoying afar the triumph of Christ and the glories of the new creation.

    No, the unknown saints are riot pessimists, nor are they misanthropes or joykillers. They are by virtue of their godly faith the world's only true optimists. Their creed was stated simply by Julian of Norwich when she said, "But all shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well." Though sin is in the world, she argued, a frightful visitation to be reckoned with, yet so perfect is the atonement that the time will come when all evil shall be eradicated and everything restored again to its pristine beauty in Christ. Then "all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well."

    The wise Christian will be content to wait for that day. In the meantime, he will serve his generation in the will of God. If he should be overlooked in the religious popularity contests he will give it but small attention. He knows whom he is trying to please and he is willing to let the world think what it will of him. He will not be around much longer anyway, and where he is going men will be known not by their 'Hooper' rating but by the holiness of their character.
     
  3. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,062
    Likes Received:
    6,891
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Is this where this view comes from, in trying to reconcile your perceptions with Biblical doctrine?

    Much love!
     
  4. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Likes Received:
    900
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The matter is simple. The word "saint" is used in God's Word to point to the called out ones, also known as the righteous. Jesus Christ is the King of Righteousness. In Ezekiel 44, the righteous are called by the OT name 'Zadok'. Per Hebrews 7, Paul showed that Melchizedek (King of Righteousness) who met Abraham was Jesus Christ in OT times. Thusly, the matter is simple. The label of 'saint' is about the believer of The Gospel of Jesus Christ. And that Gospel and those called was ordained before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1).
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  5. David H.

    David H. Active Member

    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    57
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: ( 1 Peter 2:9)

    To be called out of darkness is the Work of God, It is we who by our will respond to this call. I Have literally read hundreds of Pages of theological text debating between free will and predestination from the likes of Erasmus and Luther, and Calvin and Arminius... And the simplicity of this solution defies intellectual hubris which has so long persisted this debate.... I asked where did the error begin? It began with Luther, who reacting to the apostacy and heresies of the RCC threw out the baby with the dirty bath water, which is the differentiation of the saints and the faithful in Christ Jesus.

    Salvation is Open to all and all are called and we all as believers are called to preach the Gospel to all the world. Not all who hear and receive the Gospel are chosen to be saints. A saint is someone who has a higher calling. The Prophets and priests are there for the perfecting of the saints... they are not the saints. Even Paul in the following passage understands he is not there yet as a saint, He knows this higher calling awaits him, and he wrote this while imprisoned in Rome....

    Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3:12-14)

    Not every Christian is called to suffer as a saint and ultimately we do not know if we will or won't be called upon by the LORD to face this suffering. But those who are deemed to be saints are prepared to give their testimony (the patience of the saints) are being prepared for this even as we speak. They are being shown the heart of God in ways the common believer is not, they are continually being tried and tempted, and mocked by Satan Himself. Satan will tell you; "you are not worthy", "you are not qualified", "You are over your head" As some commentators here have done. All to dissuade you from Making your calling and election sure.... This is why todays church has so few saints in them. Saintliness has nothing to do with Human credentials or merit, and everything to with God's sovereign will. A saint can be a poor beggar on the street corner or a millionaire business man, a Saint can have a doctorate in divinity or be a common working man, even a lowly fisherman or tax collector... In Fact the very concept of elevating men based on their education and credentials to church leadership is a flawed system that has resulted in Hireling preachers who are afraid to speak the truth, and worse open the door to seducing spirits. The saint is the counterbalance to the Hubris of leaders of the church. Nicolaitanism is definitionally to rule over the Laity, Saints counteract this in that they are ruled by God and speak when called upon to speak against the Hubris of men. It is the Hubris of men that keeps the church in confusion, and division, But not so in the churches of the saints. (1 Cor. 14:33)

    With this in mind now read Ephesians 4:11-13 , that the 5 fold ministry is there for the perfecting of the saints, till we all come to the unity of the faith in the fulness of Christ. This is not some false ecumenical unity, But a true unity with Christ as the head. No Calvin, or Luther or arminius or any other "ism" there.

    All glory and Honor is the LORD's.
     
  6. amigo de christo

    amigo de christo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    534
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes indeed dear sister . let the LORD be praised one and all . Praise the Glorious Lord .
     
  7. amigo de christo

    amigo de christo Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    534
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    That dog sure seems so familiar .
    Good night everyone . And let the LORD be praised .
     
  8. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

    Messages:
    4,421
    Likes Received:
    1,919
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Take it from me, The Saints are a football team in the UK that hail from Southampton in Hampshire and always found themselves in the lower leagues until they had a new manager who took them to the top division and they have been there ever since. Sometimes they hang on and sometimes they do well.

    How do I know this? Because they were my team when I lived in the UK and I have kept following them when I moved to Australia. One of the first things I bought in Australia was a waste paper bin with a Saints logo on the side. It was for the Saints at St. Kilda hence the name but I commandeered it for the Saints in Southampton. I still have it 40 years later.
     
  9. CadyandZoe

    CadyandZoe Active Member

    Messages:
    465
    Likes Received:
    217
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    We have seen from earlier posts in this thread that Paul considered all believers to be saints. Your description of the "saint" should describe all the followers of Christ, not a select few. All believers suffer, all believers are tested.
     
    marks and amigo de christo like this.
  10. David H.

    David H. Active Member

    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    57
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    And then the confusion perpetuates itself, and the conflict remains in the body and the unity of the Spirit is never received, as the status quo is upheld as orthodoxy.... What a shame.

    There is always contentment in infancy that maturity lacks, But eventually we must put away childish things.

    And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (1 Cor. 3:1-3)

    Paul's Other prayer in Ephesians.

    For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. (Eph 3:14-21)

    complacency is the same as Lukewarmness, there is comfort in complacency, But there is also rot there.
    Church in the Rut - Sermon Index Read the whole link if you dare?
     
  11. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,149
    Likes Received:
    900
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I strongly... disagree. And so does God's Holy Writ disagree with that.

    Do you ever stop and actually think about what you say? At one point in your post you recognize Scripture about those called to believe The Gospel, and in another stroke paragraph you then try to separate those by making your own requirements to be called a saint, and thus fall right back in the practices Luther rebuked the RCC for.

    Rom 1:7
    7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    KJV


    Apostle Paul was a chosen servant in The Gospel directly by Jesus Christ (Acts 9). There above he calls ALL those at Rome that believed as saints, not singling out himself as a chosen one compared to them. It's because of what Jesus showed in John 17 about those He 'sent' (apostles) that The Father owned and gave Him. Jesus mentioned a second group that would believe by His Apostles preaching, and ordained both groups to become one in Him and The Father, meaning ALL believers are Christ's elect called saints. But the specific duty like Paul and the other Apostles had Jesus showed that He sent them into the world, and that like Himself they are not of the world. And the name the New Testament uses for those He 'sent' is the word 'apostolos' (apostle), not the word saint.

    And since Paul in the above Romans 1:7 is addressing the believers at Rome as... "called to be saints", that means 'they' are not
    Apostles like he was. Thus you are placing the idea of being chosen that is written in Scripture as the requirement to be a saint, when that is not how Paul used the idea.

    Thus the usage of the word "saint" or "saints" in God's Word is about those of His Church, whether called only like the majority of believers, or called & chosen like Paul.
     
  12. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,062
    Likes Received:
    6,891
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    This "elevation" so Sainthood . . . in your view sanctification is not lived by faith. Instead God must select you for sanctification.

    Yet sanctification is promised to all believers.

    Much love!
     
  13. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,062
    Likes Received:
    6,891
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Saint . . . Not Saint

    Sanctified . . . unsanctified

    Holy . . . unholy
     
  14. David H.

    David H. Active Member

    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    57
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Your Putting words in my mouth that I have not said. Please stop that. Sanctification is for all both faithful in Christ Jesus and the saints. Both instant sanctification and progressive sanctification. But much like the Prophets bear a burden so to are saints called to bear a distinct burden the remainder of the faithful are not. In So doing the LORD will prepare them to carry that Burden according to his foreknowledge and predestination.

    It is like a Donkey who is broken in to carry a burden for men, and it is that donkey that is sent with the message to the Balaam's of the church.

    I will ask you a question now, What does the fulness of Christ mean to you in your spiritual Journey? (See Ephesians 4:13) And no cheating and looking it up in commentaries, Just Your view and the verse it points to.
     
  15. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,062
    Likes Received:
    6,891
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I have neither intent nor interest in putting words in your mouth, that makes for a very poor discussion in my opinion.

    A saint is one who is sanctified.

    But you are saying not all believers are saints, so I'm responding with what the word means, to point out the ramifications of your POV. If only some believers are saints, then only some believers are sanctified. Is that not so?

    And in saying that we are elevated to this sanctification based on God's choosing alone, then it is not by our faith, is that not also true?

    Much love!
     
  16. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,062
    Likes Received:
    6,891
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Do you realize that this is to be achieved so that we can BEGIN to build each other up in love?


    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    There is an excellent discussion to be had on this portion of the Bible.

    But . . . reading commentaries is cheating? Are we in a contest?

    Much love!
     
  17. David H.

    David H. Active Member

    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    57
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Being a sent One is a totally different thing than a saint. A person who is sent is given the gifts of the Spirit and called to one of the fivefold ministries in the church. Someone who is Sent can also be called to be a saint, But not all who are sent are called to be saints, as was indicated by Paul when he speaks of the high calling of Christ and not having attained that yet, despite his years of ministry and persecutions for preaching the Gospel while being sent as an Apostle to the gentiles (See Philippians 3:12-14, one of his prison epistles).

    There is nothing you can do to earn the title "Saint" It is all of God's choosing and predestination. When You understand this, and when you combine this understanding with prophecy of the ultimate goal of our Christian walk, You will see the depth and riches of God's end time plan. No where in scripture is the Word saint used more than in Revelation, and Ephesians is a close second. Now perhaps there is something to this that the church as a whole is missing? Well, You will never Know until you ask the Holy Ghost to teach you laying aside the traditions of men using the Word of God and the Holy Ghost as your guide. May I suggest if you embark on this you pray Paul's prayer in Ephesians 1:17-end of chapter. If not, you can continue living being tossed to and fro by the doctrines of men. The choice is yours.

    The way I see it, the end is going to consist of those who fall away from the truth, and persecute the saints as per Luke 21:12-19, and Matthew 24 whose love waxes cold, and those who join the saints in the unity of the Spirit in the fulness of Christ.

    consider this verse as well: Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;(Eph 2:19) Do You see it yet?
     
  18. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,062
    Likes Received:
    6,891
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    These ministers are given to the church so that we will all become unified so we can minister to each other.

    How do we attain this unity? You may check commentaries if you wish!

    ;)

    Much love!
     
  19. David H.

    David H. Active Member

    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    57
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    qodesh
    apartness, holiness, sacredness, separateness

    1. apartness, sacredness, holiness
      1. of God

      2. of places

      3. of things
    2. set-apartness, separateness

    I See God's choosing and distinction in the definition of a saint, I See One who is set apart from the whole and separated. I am not saying consecration is not part of it, Because Holiness is involved, But this does not negate sanctification in the faithful.... rememder, I said, All the faithful are called to be saints, Few are chosen.

    Most Christians have never even thought of what this means, Because it is one of those things that has not been fully revealed to the body of Christ until the end times, Consider what John wrote in 1 John 3:1-3 As this applies here. Only those who love the Truth and hunger and thirst for righteousness will discover this.

    So Is this a contest, no just a test if the Holy Ghost has taught you yet the full implications of this. Not that the commentaries have it all figured out either, But that they will lead you to give an unthought out impersonal answer to the query.
     
  20. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,062
    Likes Received:
    6,891
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Ok. I don't really roll that way. I'm not hear to prove myself to you. Personally, I might wonder if you realize the implications. Do you have any thoughts on what I said that this reaching the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, that this is what BEGINS us being able to build each other up in love?

    How will we even receive ministry from each other, much less the edifice making the God instructs us, if we don't have a core unity in Christ?

    How do we attain this unity?

    I don't ask these questions to test, rather, to invite reflection.

    Much love!
     
Loading...