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Featured Who are the Saints?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by David H., Sep 12, 2020.

  1. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Let me ask you a question, if I may, How would you describe our justification in Christ? What does that mean?

    Much love!
     
  2. David H.

    David H. Active Member

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    Instant sanctification. We are declared righteous not by our works But by His work on the cross, because his blood is an atonement for sin. When God sees us he sees His son and his righteousness, not our sin. Progressive sanctification comes after salvation and is the process of the Law being written on our hearts via the work of the Holy Spirit in us as believers. This comes via conviction and repentance and at times chastisement and discipline from God, But also from encouragement and edification and being in His presence and Love. So through the process of progressive sanctification HE makes us free from sin. As a Christian you should be growing everyday as you are being cleansed continually from the inside out.
     
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  3. David H.

    David H. Active Member

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    Fair enough, Unity is a unity of the Spirit, and comes when Man has fully surrendered to the Spirit, and they are no longer fighting for their pride and Old nature for the things of this world such as fame and fortune and self aggrandizement. When we put to death the Old man and put on the mind of Christ and he becomes the head and our all in all. Until then we try to remain in control and at the helm of our life, unsubmitted to His will, and never fully Letting God finish his work in us because we in our old nature are afraid of giving up this control. It is a lifelong process to learn how to completely trust In His sovereignty in this way. We Become "perfectly One" with the Son who is perfectly one with the Father.

    I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. (John 17:23, ESV)

    The Problem is most Christians are living in partial belief (or unbelief, if you are pessimist) and have not fully made Him LORD, They want the benefits without Losing themselves, for fear, pride, and loss of control. They have Christ as copilot but not as their Pilot of their lives. What they do not understand is that submitting to the authority of God is the most liberating thing a human can do, which is counter intuitive to how the world thinks, especially in this day and age where submitting is a bad word.
     
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  4. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for this! It helps to know how you think of these things!

    I see justification in our death and resurrection in Jesus Christ. The soul that sins shall die. In Christ, we died, yet we still live, and now our life is Christ's life in us. The death that was due is paid. We shared His death. Having died to the man of flesh, the son of Adam, we are no longer part of the sinful race. Our sin has been condemned in the flesh, but we are now reborn spirit children of God. Now we have God's nature, not Adam's nature.

    Sharing God's nature is to be righteous and holy in the inner man, and in our resurrection we will be as Chrsit in the outer man also. But meanwhile, as we continue in our corrupted flesh bodies, we are instructed to put off the old man, and put on the new man.

    Putting off and putting on are to take on the mindset and all that goes with it for the one or the other. Putting on the new man is to allow the new creation to rule the mind, the heart, the will, and, in so doing, we deny a place for our old man to be expressed in our lives.

    To me it comes down to trusting God, and this is the day by day growth, growing in faith, which leads to growing in love, and in obedience, as we trust Jesus for this moment, and this moment He leads me.

    Being justified in the sense explained in Romans is being made innocent by virture of a death and resurrection. In that resurrection is our new life, but we are so so used to thinking in the old way, we are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. Learning to think the new way, that we have been justifed "away from sin". Separated completely.

    Any motion towards sin is, I think, a lapse of faith at the time it's happening. Trusting Jesus right now, He keeps me.

    Your thoughts?

    Much love!
     
  5. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    It took this long to give a good answer . . . :)

    I will continue to challenge you to test this.

    Much love!
     
  6. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Question . . . do you see three groups here? There is the "saints", and the "household of God", and the one being adressed?

    So someone is a fellowcitizen, and they are with the saints, and the household?

    Much love!
     
  7. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    What does it mean that someone is called to be a saint, but, not being chosen, they neither can nor will be saints?

    Are we really called by God to be something we cannot be?

    And remember . . . "to be" is added by some, but not all translators. Called saints.

    Much love!
     
  8. David H.

    David H. Active Member

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    I do not know what video Policies are here but listen to the lyrics in this Hymn...

     
  9. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    You are simply heeding a Catholic tradition of men, NOT an idea that comes from God in His Word. There simply are too many Scriptures in The New Testament Epistles that use the term "saints" when speaking to believers on Christ Jesus in a general sense for it to mean an elect within an elect. What you have succumbed to is a tradition of men, and not God's written Word.

    1 Cor 1:2
    2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
    KJV

    Rom 1:7
    7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    KJV

    1 Cor 14:33
    33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
    KJV

    1 Cor 16:1
    16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
    KJV

    2 Cor 1:1
    1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
    KJV

    1 Thess 3:13
    13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
    KJV
     
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  10. David H.

    David H. Active Member

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    I Have learned after 10 years of this that debating with people with closed minds is not worth my time. That being said, I have been clear that the Catholic dogma of venerating the saints is heretical calling it the dirty bath water. Protestantism was reactionary religion, and some of the worst heresies addressed were those of paying indulgences to the saints and praying to them. But in throwing out the bath water, they threw out the baby that was in it. I stand behind that claim not because of tradition and doctrine but because of the teaching of the Holy Ghost. It is you who have closed your mind and are unable to be taught by the Holy Ghost because you are hanging onto the traditions you were taught in Protestant circles, and the Hatred for all things Catholic in many of those circles. I am not saying become a catholic nor trying to proseletyze you into their dogma I am rather searching for the truths that have kept the church separated and trying to bring the body together as one and this is one of those things that can do it, a right understanding of the Word.

    In every one of those verses that you posted I see this distinction between the faithful and the saints espoused, You just have your assumption handd to you by tradition that you are unable to see it. You in other words have closed your mind from divine revelation.

    Read the following and let the words convict you...

    No Revival without Reformation - A.W. Tozer
    No Revival without Reformation


    (an excerpt from The Deeper Life)

    by A.W. Tozer


    Wherever Christians meet these days one word is sure to be heard constantly repeated" that word is revival. ...

    So strongly is the breeze blowing for revival that scarcely anyone appears to have the discernment or the courage to turn around and lean into the wind, even though the truth may easily lie in that direction. Religion has its vogues very much as do philosophy, politics and women's fashions. Historically the major world religions have had their periods of decline and recovery, and those recoveries are bluntly called revivals by the annalists.

    Let us not forget that in some lands Islam is now enjoying a revival, and the latest report from Japan indicates that after a brief eclipse following World War II Shintoism is making a remarkable come-back....

    A religion, even popular Christianity, could enjoy a boom altogether divorced from the transforming power of the Holy Spirit and so leave the church of the next generation worse off than it would have been if the boom had never occurred. I believe that the imperative need of the day is not simply revival, but a radical reformation that will go to the root of our moral and spiritual maladies and deal with causes rather than with consequences, with the disease rather than with symptoms.

    It is my considered opinion that under the present circumstances we do not want revival at all. A widespread revival of the kind of Christianity we know today in America might prove to be a moral tragedy from which we would not recover in a hundred years.

    Here are my reasons. A generation ago, as a reaction from Higher Criticism and its offspring, Modernism, there arose in Protestantism a powerful movement in defense of the historic Christian faith. This, for obvious reasons, came to be known as Fundamentalism. It was a more or less spontaneous movement without much organization, but its purpose wherever it appeared was the same: to stay 'the rising tide of negation' in Christian theology and to restate and defend the basic doctrines of New Testament Christianity....






    Falls Victim to Its Virtues


    What is generally overlooked is that Fundamentalism, as it spread throughout the various denominations and nondenominational groups, fell victim to its own virtues. The Word died in the hands of its friends. ... An unofficial hierarchy decided what Christians were to believe. Not the Scriptures, but what the scribe thought the Scriptures meant became the Christian creed. Christian colleges, seminaries, Bible institutes, Bible conferences, popular Bible expositors all joined to promote the cult of textualism. The system of extreme dispensationalism which was devised, relieved the Christian of repentance, obedience and cross-carrying in any other than the most formal sense. Whole sections of the New Testament were taken from the church and disposed of after a rigid system of “dividing the Word of truth.”

    All this resulted in a religious mentality inimical to the true faith of Christ. ... The basic doctrines of the Bible were there, but the climate was just not favorable to the sweet fruits of the Spirit.

    The whole mood was different from that of the Early Church and of the great souls who suffered and sang and worshiped in the centuries past. The doctrines were sound but something vital was missing. The tree of correct doctrine was never allowed to blossom. The voice of the turtle [dove] was rarely heard in the land".... Faith, a mighty, vitalizing doctrine in the mouths of the apostles, became in the mouth of the scribe another thing altogether and power went from it. As the letter triumphed, the Spirit withdrew and textualism ruled supreme....

    In the interest of accuracy it should be said that this was a general condition only. Certainly there were some even in those low times whose longing hearts were better theologians than their teachers were. These pressed on to a fullness and power unknown to the rest. But they were not many and the odds were too great" they could not dispel the mist that hung over the land.

    The error of textualism is not doctrinal. It is far more subtle than that and much more difficult to discover, but its effects are just as deadly. Not its theological beliefs are at fault, but its assumptions.

    It assumes, for instance, that if we have the word for a thing we have the thing itself. If it is in the Bible, it is in us. If we have the doctrine, we have the experience. If something was true of Paul it is of necessity true of us because we accept Paul's epistles as divinely inspired. The Bible tells us how to be saved, but textualism goes on to make it tell us that we are saved, something which in the very nature of things it cannot do. Assurance of individual salvation is thus no more than a logical conclusion drawn from doctrinal premises, and the resultant experience wholly mental.
    Read More here: No Revival without Reformation - A.W. Tozer - Sermon Index
     
  11. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    Yes, we all believe what's true, and everyone else is assuming the traditions of blindness.

    If you cannot dispute the assertion, argue against the person.

    This passage . . . this letter is addressed to the saints? And the saints are the "more sanctified ones"?

    Remember . . . "called to be saints", other translators don't add the words, to be, and simply translate "called saints".

    Here what the Scripture says to the saints:

    ch. 1
    11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
    12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

    ch. 3
    1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
    2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
    3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
    4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

    Carnal saints?

    Much love!
     
  12. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    I don't hold to Catholic doctrines about the idea of saints, nor would I pray to any of them, which Lord Jesus showed us to Whom and how to pray.
     
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  13. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    I didn't think you did, and was just being lazy, pulling those verses from your post.

    :)
     
  14. David H.

    David H. Active Member

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    And that is why I say multiple groups are being addressed, Not just the saints. You end up with an Oxymoron like "Carnal saints" Not to mention the sin addressed in the later chapters committed by the leader of the church of Corinth, which Paul rebuked them on.

    This is at the heart of my point here, In Fundamentalist circles there has come this term associated with Those left behind after the rapture coined as "tribulation saints" according to them, these are the castoffs of the Laodicean church or the entire Laodicean church that was not worthy of the rapture and was spued out, Yet given another chance. So In effect they are saying God is casting off saints if all who believe are saints. Those who in the end are rejected for the rapture merely become part of the harlot of revelation.

    So for example Paul writes "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." (1 Cor. 14:33) Well what is it saying if the church as we know it today is full of confusion and is incapable of solving a dilemma such as predestination or free will, that has separated the church for centuries? It means the Post modern church of today is severely lacking in saints that bring the Unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. (Ephesians 4:3). So the sickness we have is niche religious system that groups all the eyes in one denomination and all the arms in another and all the feet in another to use Paul's analogy of the Body in 1 Cor. 12.
    .
    But when Christ is the head, the body fits together perfectly, the problem is Christ is not the head rather men and theologians are and we see waves of doctrines and cunning craftiness of men grip the church as certain doctrines become in vogue while others diminish, and the Faithful in Christ are tossed about to and fro between two opinions exactly as Paul Spoke of.

    I think I adequately argued the assertion, and have done so over and over again. I do not condone Catholic dogma as I am accused of But I do think this is Protestantisms big error. One that has directly led to all the denominationalism that is found in it.... Think about that, as this is the height of the Post modern mindset we are seeing in the church, and shows how similar to the world the church really is. We have lost our saltiness, and our desire for the truth and there are certain events that are prophesied for those who have not received the Love of the Truth in scripture.

    Let me frame this another way.... Several years ago ISIS beheaded on video a handful of Coptic Christians in Egypt and they all died confessing Jesus as LORD.... these were saints, and I did not hear anyone in fundamentalist or other circles saying Coptic Christianity is heretical Despite the fact that they adhere to the Papacy in their hierarchy. In Fact what I saw was unity in the form of most Christians acknowledging their testimony. That is what a saint does in the church to bring the Unity of the Spirit. This is what the early church Knew and understood and caused it to turn the world upside down and that the more the adversary persecuted them the more they grew in strength and spread around the world.
     
  15. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Why would that be an *error* since that is exactly what the Bible says? There are some verses where the translators of the KJV inserted the words "to be" which are not found in the Greek. And that conveys the wrong impression.

    Romans 1:7: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. [Note: "to be" is in italics]

    Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (1 Cor 1:2) [Note: "to be" is in italics]

    Who calls believers "saints"? It is God Himself. And why does He call them saints? Because they are "sanctified in Christ Jesus".

    The Bible says that all believers are "saints", which logically means that they should live sanctified lives.
     
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  16. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    And every genuine believer is consecrated for a special purpose -- to serve God and Christ. Thus all genuine believers are indeed "saints".

    It is only the Catholic church which promotes the false teaching of the *canonization* of saints (where the RCC declares that someone is a saint). At the same time the RCC deems all non-Catholic believers (saints) as "heretics".
     
  17. marksman

    marksman My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her

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    I tell you what. The sort of things mothers have to put up with qualifies them for sainthood.
     
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  18. CadyandZoe

    CadyandZoe Active Member

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    Mothers have the most significant job in the world.
     
  19. David H.

    David H. Active Member

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    The Premise verse of this OP is Eph. 1:1, Would you care to address this where the saints are clearly distinguished from the faithful in Christ Jesus. The KJV translators obviously saw the need to insert the "to be" into those verses to make the whole of scripture work, and example of this is the point made of "carnal saints" in the previous comment. Either that or show me a specific verse that says "all believers are saints".

    Paul calls Himself the "least of all the saints", and if he is the least of them then we in the church are claiming we are greater than Paul, that does not make sense to me and we are not close to his stature in this day and age.

    You cannot base a doctrine on 1 or 2 verses, but must look at the whole of scripture to understand the concept. This distinction goes back to the Old testament, where not everyone of Israel was called a saint, But those who were united with the saints were called the faithful (Hos. 11:12), By Definition, a saint is one who is separated and called out from the whole. So A saint is one who is distinct from the body of believers.
     
  20. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    This sounds like circular reasoning to me.

    You parse the born again into "believers" and "saints", and then parse the letter from Paul to fit that division?

    Again I find this discussion hinges on what your view of justification is. I believe our justification and reconconciliation are complete. None who are reconciled will be 'left behind'. So no saints are rejected. All the redeemed are included.

    What is it saying? That God didn't author that confusion.

    Do you think that it's doctrine that brings unity? I've come to the conclusion myself that this isn't the obstacle to unity, that we all teach the same things about everything. I think that there is something different, something that we can all share, that will bring us the unity to be able to sort out the rest.

    So many people out there don't care about these intricacies of the doctrines. We all love them! But so many people, all they really look to is the peace that comes from God, and the care for those around them.

    When we understand the depth of our reconciliation, and justification, then the we have peace with God, and we can walk in that peace. And this liberates us to love those around us, to look to the interests of others, and not ourselves, after all, we are at peace with our Faithful Creator.

    I think we'll find that God groups us together, and as we serve in the gifts of the Spirit we find that needs are met.

    The leaven of incomplete justification and reconciliation has again crept back through the church. The reformation had a lot to say to restore the correct understanding, but now we see many teachings that you require faith in Jesus Christ, and these ongoing ____________ . But our justification is final, our reconciliation complete. And since these were done by Jesus, we had nothing to do with it. We merely receive it, or we don't.

    And sometimes we receive His reconciliation, but don't really at heart believe it's true, and we continue to live as if we have to somehow buy enough of His love by our passion or our good performance, or something, so that He'll make us OK.

    1 Peter 4
    10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
    11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
    12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
    13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
    14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

    God gives us grace to endure what we need to endure. Should that day ever come for you or I, may we likewise declare the glory of the Lord!

    Much love!
     
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