The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[Renniks]

If I have the fear of the LORD in me, I shall not depart from Him (Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv)).

If I shall not depart from Him, how then can I depart from Him?

Are you a robot? Can you no longer choose to sin? Of course you can. And yes you can choose to walk away from the faith. You are very inconsistent saying that the word warns against falling away and then claiming we can not fall away

 

[justbyfaith]

Are you a robot? Can you no longer choose to sin? Of course you can. And yes you can choose to walk away from the faith. You are very inconsistent saying that the word warns against falling away and then claiming we can not fall away

I am not a robot, I am a sheep; and because I am a sheep I despise vomit and mud.

Whereas before, when I was a dog or swine, I returned to my vomit and my wallowing in the mire as a course of nature.

The Holy Spirit dwelling in me motivates me to continue in faith in Jesus; He even instills that faith within me as a fruit (Galatians 5:22-23) and as a gift (1 Corinthians 12:9).

Since I am saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), and not as a matter of performance (Romans 3:20, Romans 4:5, Galatians 2:16), all that is needed is that I continue in faith.

And the Holy Spirit who has sealed me (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) is the same One who instills faith in me as the result of my being indwelt by Him (Galatians 5:22-23, 1 Corinthians 12:9).

Therefore, as long as I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit (see 2 Timothy 1:14), I will have faith.

And it appears that the promise of the Lord to me is that I am sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30).

 

[FollowHim]

Straw man

Emotionally when someone says you are saying Paul is lying is strong and inappropriate language.

Paul is our brother in Christ, one who we love, so to suggest such a thing jars. And it's this that is like a clanging symbol that says beware such folk as these. Incapable of measuring impact or hurt, unaware of the subject matter and no desire to encourage.

Jesus wants us to be humble and caring, to walk the path of life, to be sensitive to situations, yet here comes the great authority to kill the theology, put things right and doom to hell these liars. It's this very approach that speaks of their hearts and way, which is not the path Jesus called me to follow. God bless you

 

[FollowHim]

An odd testimony.
I was told my interaction with a believer caused them to almost lose their mind.

They then said I had not changed. They claimed I am earning my salvation. You will notice these are all statements from their perspective without reasons or examples.

There is a mindset choice here. Either God gives us a gift and we are sealed eternally outside our free will or this is a loving relationship with life and death as it's background. There is no way back if you choose one and make an enemy of the other. I have no fault with any who praise Jesus so I only see emphasis, but this particular believer chooses me as their unbelieving foe.

And because I walk as I do and I do not make them anything more than they are they go nuts, literally. It is a testimony to God's truth and polarised views that provoke anger. God bless you

They want me to be angry, which in Christ is absurd, because in Him we have everything Praise the Lord

 

[BloodBought 1953]

(2) OSAS advocates have frozen like Bambi in the headlights at the case against OSAS in the Letters to the 7 Churches. So let's move on to Hebrews. A few introductory comments are helpful to the discussion:
(a) No academic commentary on Hebrews supports Paul's authorship of this epistle.
(b) The scholarly consensus recognizes the addressees as the church of Rome, a Gentile church with some Jewish Christians. Thus, the earliest citations of Hebrews come from Rome.
(c) Like the Gentile church of Alexandria, the predominantly Gentile church of Rome was interested in OT typology.
Raymond Brown reports the scholarly consensus about Hebrews in his magisterial “An Introduction to the New Testament” (878 pages):

“Most scholars agree that the title “To the Hebrews” was not supplied by the author...Almost certainly it represents a conjecture attached to the work because of an analysis of the contents that deal so largely with Israelite cult...At the beginning they [the addressees] were properly enlightened and baptized into Christ. The community received the Christian message from evangelists whose work was accompanied by the working of miracles. The activity of the Holy Spirit was part of that experience (2:3-4: 6:4-5). Then...they were afflicted by some type of persecution, hostility, and/ or harassment (10:32-34). They were deprived of property and some were put in prison. (p. 697).”

The discussion of Hebrews will focus on 2 central texts in contexts that decisively refute OSAS.
(1) Hebrews 10:26. 29 jointly make it clear that born again believers can lose their salvation and become apostates destined for hellfire:

"If we willfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin, but a fearsome prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire (Heb. 10:26)."

Such apostates were once "made holy, but outraged the Spirit of grace (10:29)." But this holiness can be forfeited and therefore needs to be pursued: "Pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (12:14)." (2) "It is impossible to restore again to repentance those who once been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partners (Greek: "metachoi") with the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, since on their own, they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding Him up for contempt (6:4-5)."

Such people do not benefit from eternal security. In the context the author likens them to ground that grows "thorns and thistles" that is "cursed" and destined to being "burned over (6:8)" and therefore to be consigned to Hell. Yet these apostates have received the "heavenly gift" of salvation (cp. Ephesians 2:8-9) and the Holy Spirit, and so, they were once born again of the Spirit.

The claim that those who become “metachoi” (= “partners” or “sharers” with the Holy Spirit might not actually possess the Holy Spirit can be dismissed on 2 grounds: (a) The author addresses his readers as "holy partners ("metachoi") in the heavenly calling" (3:1). (b) The author then warns: "For we have become partners ("metochoi") of Christ, if only we hold our FIRST confidence firm till the end (3:14)." By implication the saving partnership with Christ or the Holy Spirit is dissolved if we don't persevere until the end, but become apostates! "Metachoi" in 6:4 means "partners" as well as "sharers." So the Christians addressed in 6:4 "have become partners ("metochoi") with the Holy Spirit," meaning they have been saved by the work of the Spirit. The significance of the phrase, "it is impossible to restore again to repentance" must not be overlooked. "Restore again" implies the Christians in question have already genuinely repented when they became partners with Christ and the Holy Spirit. This is the standard interpretation of academic book commentaries on Hebrews, which posters here have never read. By academic book commentaries, I mean commentararies on just one Bible book written by PhDs in Scriptures who know and discuss in detail the nuances of the Greek text. For example, justbyfaith likes to cite John Courson, who is a pastor/ preacher, not a scholar qualified to discuss the Greek text in detail and who has not written ab an academic commentary focused on just one NT book.

As groups go....no groups are more Blind than Scholars .....The Truths Of The Bible must be “ Spiritually Discerned” ......OSAS deniers do not have the Holy Spirit Inside them that is a requirement for realizing what is obvious to a man that does.....Nobody has ever been able to explain away what this ONE verse PROVES to be Truth.......Jesus firmly believed and taught OSAS.....a child could see it....
Or an Adult with the HolySpirit in them.....”All That Believe In me ALREADY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE and shall NEVER come into CONDEMNATION”......some things just can’t be argued with ....unless one is insane or perhaps very sane, but just lacking “ eyes to see”.....the same thing as not having God’s Spirit in them....
They are “ Bad Soil”. Only God’s Holy Spirit can change that...Perhaps if they become “ good Soil” they will have the Spiritual Insight to Believe God's obvious ways....and stop,calling Him a liar....Newbies to the Faith please take note—- OSAS might well be the “,Narrow Gate”......Doctrine is important....make sure Your Doctrine lines up with God’s .....OSAS is the Doctrine Of God.....

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And I never said I was without sin but I should be, shouldn't I? If not, then how much sin is OK?

The question is not whether you should be or not. The question is can you be

if we define sin from gods view. No man has ever achieved that state,

Our problem is We try to define sin from a few commands, and claim, well I obey them so I am ok, when in reality sin is far deeper than just breaking this command or that, we can actually do good deeds, and yet be in sin while doing them

Jesus said the law of love is what Fulfills the law, And he proved it with his walk. As paul said in Romans 7 we still have the flesh (selfish desire) so we still do not do the things we want, and continue to do things we do not want, because we can not “agape” love perfectly.

if we saw Jesus face to face today we would fall on our faces, because we would see ourselves as we are, filthy retched sinners, as compared to a holy God,

that’s why John said, if we claim we have no sin, we are decieved,

take John at his word, stop worrying about it and learn to love and seek after the things of the spirit. The more you do this, the more sanctified you will be

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Straw man

Paul said I am saved, it is a past action

and you claim you are not and will never be until a future time

Thus you call paul a liar.

that is not a straw man, that is a fact!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

An odd testimony.
I was told my interaction with a believer caused them to almost lose their mind.

They then said I had not changed. They claimed I am earning my salvation. You will notice these are all statements from their perspective without reasons or examples.

There is a mindset choice here. Either God gives us a gift and we are sealed eternally outside our free will or this is a loving relationship with life and death as it's background. There is no way back if you choose one and make an enemy of the other. I have no fault with any who praise Jesus so I only see emphasis, but this particular believer chooses me as their unbelieving foe.

And because I walk as I do and I do not make them anything more than they are they go nuts, literally. It is a testimony to God's truth and polarised views that provoke anger. God bless you

They want me to be angry, which in Christ is absurd, because in Him we have everything Praise the Lord

Yesterday a person asked yu a question, you went in circles and did everything but answer his question, then when he continued to ask you the question, you kept going in circles. Then claimed you basically have the right to answer anY you want did yu not?

no you have not changed since I first met you three or four years ago where you slandered me and my faith. And I tried to call you out on it, and in my own pride, became a person I did not like because you made me so angry,

I am not the only one you made angry by you refusal to answer simple basic questions which would put your belief system in doubt if you answered correctly.
Your a proud man peter, I keep praying God will use some one to break that pride, you know why yu are not in that other chatroom now Peter, it’s time for you to fess up and take responsibility for your own actions and stop blaming everyone else for your own issues,

 

[Heyzeus]

You don't have to believe me. I'm happy with the knowledge.

Some of the passages are complicated - and have been interpreted many ways - by folks who do this for a living.

For example - many claim that the "the Beast" 666 - was Nero - such that some of the events in Revelation have already happened,

 

[Heyzeus]

Paul said I am saved, it is a past action

and you claim you are not and will never be until a future time

Thus you call paul a liar.

that is not a straw man, that is a fact!

I do not know that I would call Paul a "Liar" .. but some of his writing was definitely "Not" inspired. The word of Paul - as opposed to the Word of God.

Romans 13 would be one example.

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. .........4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing.

Now perhaps you wish to believe Paul - and wish to believe that all the evil dictators throughout History - were God's servants - acting for your own good - and you should not rebel in any way against these authorities - this would be sad and mind twisting.

It is no mystery why Paul would write this - he wanted to get Christianity on side with the Romans - and this was a smart thing to do - perhaps even saved Christianity.

Claiming that Romans 13 was "Inspired by God" however - would be a terrible thing if your claim was true.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

I do not know that I would call Paul a "Liar" .. but some of his writing was definitely "Not" inspired. The word of Paul - as opposed to the Word of God.

Romans 13 would be one example.


Now perhaps you wish to believe Paul - and wish to believe that all the evil dictators throughout History - were God's servants - acting for your own good - and you should not rebel in any way against these authorities - this would be sad and mind twisting.

It is no mystery why Paul would write this - he wanted to get Christianity on side with the Romans - and this was a smart thing to do - perhaps even saved Christianity.

Claiming that Romans 13 was "Inspired by God" however - would be a terrible thing if your claim was true.

If Paul said it—— Jesus said....

Peter said Paul’s Writings were Holy Scripture .....there is Nothing in your Bible that is not Holy-Spirit Inspired......

 

[BarneyFife]

Paul said I am saved, it is a past action

and you claim you are not and will never be until a future time

Thus you call paul a liar.

that is not a straw man, that is a fact!

But you ignore all the other texts in the Bible that suggest salvation is a process or a journey, or like a race and then treat people who bring them up like atheists or even criminals. The spirit which actuates aggressors like you is obvious. My taste for it is wearing thin. I knew this would turn into a malicious gang war. Us and them, just like the world.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I do not know that I would call Paul a "Liar" .. but some of his writing was definitely "Not" inspired. The word of Paul - as opposed to the Word of God.

Romans 13 would be one example.


Now perhaps you wish to believe Paul - and wish to believe that all the evil dictators throughout History - were God's servants - acting for your own good - and you should not rebel in any way against these authorities - this would be sad and mind twisting.

It is no mystery why Paul would write this - he wanted to get Christianity on side with the Romans - and this was a smart thing to do - perhaps even saved Christianity.

Claiming that Romans 13 was "Inspired by God" however - would be a terrible thing if your claim was true.

lol ok

all scripture is inspired

god used evil men throughout the OT to punish isreal. And they did some prety evil things. So if you think God stopped doing that just because we are in the NT. You would be in error

 

[BarneyFife]

The question is not whether you should be or not. The question is can you be

if we define sin from gods view. No man has ever achieved that state,

Our problem is We try to define sin from a few commands, and claim, well I obey them so I am ok, when in reality sin is far deeper than just breaking this command or that, we can actually do good deeds, and yet be in sin while doing them

Jesus said the law of love is what Fulfills the law, And he proved it with his walk. As paul said in Romans 7 we still have the flesh (selfish desire) so we still do not do the things we want, and continue to do things we do not want, because we can not “agape” love perfectly.

if we saw Jesus face to face today we would fall on our faces, because we would see ourselves as we are, filthy retched sinners, as compared to a holy God,

that’s why John said, if we claim we have no sin, we are decieved,

take John at his word, stop worrying about it and learn to love and seek after the things of the spirit. The more you do this, the more sanctified you will be

Who's worried? Christ is the Author and Finisher of my faith. More straw men.

 

[user]

I do not know that I would call Paul a "Liar" .. but some of his writing was definitely "Not" inspired. The word of Paul - as opposed to the Word of God.

Romans 13 would be one example.

Lets take a look at the text in question:

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. (2) Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. (3) For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. (4) For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. (5) Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. (6) For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. (7) Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

This passage discusses the Christian’s duty to submit to civil government. The teaching here is actually an expanded version of Christ’s words, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s" (Matthew 22:21).

Everyone should submit to the "governing authorities" (human rulers). We must submit to them because God is the source of all authority and He has established existing rulers. This does not mean God chooses, appoints, or approves every individual leader (although no one can exercise power unless God allows it). Rather, God has established the general principle of human government.

 

[BarneyFife]

I am not a robot, I am a sheep; and because I am a sheep I despise vomit and mud.

Whereas before, when I was a dog or swine, I returned to my vomit and my wallowing in the mire as a course of nature.

The Holy Spirit dwelling in me motivates me to continue in faith in Jesus; He even instills that faith within me as a fruit (Galatians 5:22-23) and as a gift (1 Corinthians 12:9).

Since I am saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), and not as a matter of performance (Romans 3:20, Romans 4:5, Galatians 2:16), all that is needed is that I continue in faith.

And the Holy Spirit who has sealed me (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) is the same One who instills faith in me as the result of my being indwelt by Him (Galatians 5:22-23, 1 Corinthians 12:9).

Therefore, as long as I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit (see 2 Timothy 1:14), I will have faith.

And it appears that the promise of the Lord to me is that I am sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30).

Isn't a lost sheep still a sheep? This is what happens when eisegesis is employed.

 

[Nancy]

But you ignore all the other texts in the Bible that suggest salvation is a process or a journey, or like a race and then treat people who bring them up like atheists or even criminals. The spirit which actuates aggressors like you is obvious. My taste for it is wearing thin. I knew this would turn into a malicious gang war. Us and them, just like the world.

Hi Barney,
"I knew this would turn into a malicious gang war. Us and them, just like the world."

It sure seems we need to get rid of John 13:35. I too am weary of all the snipes and barbs just because we do not all agree on every thing. Many of us thought we could find a kind of fellowship here but, that seems more and more being tossed to the wayside. Christians are not to be without one another for encouragement, prayer, worship and breaking bread, among other things but...at this day and age I sure do see many Christians "waxing cold". Church's are no different unless you are in the cliques. Never been hurt or used more than I have by so called "Christians". What a shame it has become. Can we be and remain Christians without true fellowship? It's lonely, and sad but, I think it can be done...Just us, God and whoever He tells us who needs help. I will be there every time, but not to try to make "friends". Getting so tired of the knife in the back and dishonesty of those who go by His name.

 

[BarneyFife]

The question is not whether you should be or not. The question is can you be

Who died and left you the Decider of valid questions? There is no difference, anyway. If I should not be a sinner then I can be a saint. It is simple logic.
It is written:
These things I write to you that ye sin not.

The fact that I sin is no proof that I must do so.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

But you ignore all the other texts in the Bible that suggest salvation is a process or a journey, or like a race and then treat people who bring them up like atheists or even criminals. The spirit which actuates aggressors like you is obvious. My taste for it is wearing thin. I knew this would turn into a malicious gang war. Us and them, just like the world.

Salvation occurs the second you Believe ....you confuse that with Sanctification, which is God fulfilling His Promise to “ conform us into the Image Of His Son.....that takes time—- a Lifetime....

 

[Heyzeus]

lol ok

all scripture is inspired

god used evil men throughout the OT to punish isreal. And they did some prety evil things. So if you think God stopped doing that just because we are in the NT. You would be in error

Twirling around crying "All scripture is inspired" - does not make it so.
God using evil men to punish Israel - does not make it so
You claiming to now what God us up to these days -- does not make it so.

But- OK - let us assume your claim is true.

A) Children should be killed for the sins of their parents
B) Children should not be killed for the sins of their parents

Which is inspired -and which is not.

*Note - responding "Both are inspired" - makes a joke out of the term Inspired - and a joke out of the Bible - so to try to avoid such an answer.