The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

[justbyfaith]

Which is what I said at the start. Salvation is conditional.

Try to take my whole statement into account. I said that being sealed by the Holy Ghost means that I am motivated to stay within the boundaries and also that I cannot walk outside of them.

Not because I have become a robot; but because I have become a sheep: and it is in my new nature to hate vomit and mud. Whereas when I was a dog or swine, it was my nature to return to my vomit and to my wallowing in the mire.

It has not to do with becoming automatons; but with becoming a new creature that has different loves / desires than previously.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We are not made sinless; while we can be perfected (Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv); Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6).

We are perfected in that while sin still does continue to dwell in our mortal flesh, it is rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14).

Yes this I Can agree with

 

[Renniks]

Try to take my whole statement into account. I said that being sealed by the Holy Ghost means that I am motivated to stay within the boundaries and also that I cannot walk outside of them.

Of course you can. You might never do so, but you can. And I'm not talking sinning your way out of salvation. The only sin that will disqualify you is disbelief... But that can take many forms. Perhaps the most common is to fall into a false belief about who Jesus is.

 

[FollowHim]

Of course you can. You might never do so, but you can. And I'm not talking sinning your way out of salvation. The only sin that will disqualify you is disbelief... But that can take many forms. Perhaps the most common is to fall into a false belief about who Jesus is.

I think another blindness is to judge loving worshipping believers full of the Holy Spirit as unbelievers.

I ask myself how could the Kingdom turn against itself and dishonour God's work in redeemed people? Because such accusers are not of the Lord.

The Lord confronts sinful behaviour based on hearts without love. So if you share only love and they come for you there hearts do not have the love of Christ. The apostles noticed this and declared if you love God's people you love God. God bless you

 

[Nancy]

I believe if you are not for Christ you are against him. And as such are an antichrist and unbeliever

and I think John tells us if those who claimed to be part of the church and left as those who were never of us

John also told us those who live in sin has Never seen or known God. And those born of god will not live in sin

if we love him we keep his commands. This is characteristic of true believers as apposed to those who claim to be believers

so I do not believe salvation can be lost. Eternal life is eternal

I also believe many claim to be saved yet have never truly been saved and like dogs they return to their vomit. Because they were never made a new creature in Christ

There is nothing here that I disagree with...except OSAS. If you are stating that the person was never saved to begin with then, we would also be in agreement there.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So if the person was never saved to begin with

what is left except eternal life is eternal?

call it OSAS, eternal security, the seal of the spirit, the hope which is in Christ or that he who began will complete it until the day of Christ. It’s all the same

 

[Taken]

Jesus says something very simple, we are to love Him more than anything else.
Sadly you polarise a situation where I stand back and say simply, we do that which honours the Lord.
We do not have to disclose information, so we neither confirm nor deny anything.

The problem with the idea that everything is black and white, and consequences are fair is this is not true.
As Jesus spoke to the woman caught in adultery, the question is not guilt, but what are you going to do in the future.
For those standing in judgement, where you any different at this age, and what benefit was it to treat everything like a simple situation.

Unfortunately our prisons are full of people with personality disorders and behavioural problems. Punishing them with locking them up solves nothing other than is very expensive and stops them causing trouble in the open community. But often they become drug addicts and learn how to get deeper into trouble.

So when you talk black and white, you have already got it wrong. God bless you

You are all over the place.
I asked you your thoughts on the meaning of love.
You jumped to God. It wasn't about God.
It was about Between people. In my view it is black and white. Doing what is right no matter what other person you are dealing with.
Prisons, drug addicts, mental illnesses are whole other topics.
It is easy to love your friends and show your love by doing right. It's hard to love an enemy and do right by them, but in my opinion doing right is showing love, friend or enemy, and regardless of the consequence, which you seem to have a problem with.
Point is you may not like the Consequences, they may not like the consequence, yet doing right is what matters.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are all over the place.
I asked you your thoughts on the meaning of love.
You jumped to God. It wasn't about God.
It was about Between people. In my view it is black and white. Doing what is right no matter what other person you are dealing with.
Prisons, drug addicts, mental illnesses are whole other topics.
It is easy to love your friends and show your love by doing right. It's hard to love an enemy and do right by them, but in my opinion doing right is showing love, friend or enemy, and regardless of the consequence, which you seem to have a problem with.
Point is you may not like the Consequences, they may not like the consequence, yet doing right is what matters.

That’s about all you will get from him. Good luck

 

[Taken]

Why the difference between the two?

You can wash dirt off your Flesh.
You can wash your clothes.

You can not wash sin off your Flesh.
God offers to Forgive your sin.
God offers you can crucify/ Kill your flesh.
God offers to wash your body in Jesus' Blood.
God offers to Set your body Apart from the ....Unsaved...And
....Keep your body Apart, "unto" Him.
....that is called Sanctified.
God offers you occupancy in Jesus Risen Body
...while your Remain Alive on Earth.
God offers to restore your soul.
God offers to Circumcise your heart.
God offers to give you a new heart.
God offers to give you His Seed in your new heart.
God offers His Seed to birth you a reborn ...spirit in your new heart.
Your reborn spirit is your new Truth (His ...Truth) in your new heart.
God offers you His Spirit to dwell in you.
Which is called Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Gods Indwelling Spirit is LIGHT and POWER.
Gods internal LIGHT OVERSHADOWS, ...and
...Covers your sin, that it can be seen
...no more, which is called OVERCOME.
God can not SEE your forgiven sin.
God does not remember your forgiven sin.
Gods internal POWER/Spirit keeps you forever
...Faithful to Him.
Result...IF this IS Accomplished.
Your whole...Body, Soul, Spirit, is "Prepared", to be Risen UP in "a new immortal/SINLESS body"...at the moment The Lord God calls you up to Him.
This is called, Converted, and you can account you have BE MADE WHOLE. This is called having been MADE a son of God.
This is called having been Sealed by God.
This is called having been MADE "FREE" From Sin, which means you can Never "AGAIN", SIN AGAINST God,
Which means you can NEVER AGAIN not believe in The Lord God,
(are you SINLESS? No.) <--- SINLESS occurs when you no longer occupy Jesus' Body, which is when your own body is Risen in glory (perfected immorality).

And that is Why..."ONCE" your ARE Converted, you no longer have "the Power" to say...oh Gee, I think I'll Reject God and "give Him back His Gift of Salvation"...like some who utterly fail, to comprehend, their old, Flesh, is Dead, their old heart, thoughts in their heart Dead, cut off...they no longer have the OLD heart "To declare rejection"!!!

And the thing is...it is precisely from the Heart (man's spirit) thoughts from which a man Makes his Vow OF Belief...

It is from that same hearts thoughts, he would have to, say oops, I don't believe...and it's already circumcised, dead, cut off.

They will tell you, they can Lose their salvation, by changing their mind...that is False.
It is Not from the Mind, one declares Belief in God...its always from the hearts thoughts.

If it was from the mind...No changes Were made, by God, and sure a wishy washy Mind can claim all day long he is he isn't he is he isn't...Saved. It means nothing. God is Not fooled, by the deceit of a Carnal Mind of man.

When a man Confesses true heartfelt Belief...you can see the simplicity in the man's part...you can Hear (but not See His Confession).
And comprehend the long list of Things God Does...unseen to our eyes, and the Worlds eyes.
(And sadly "unknown" to many people).

^ and A GREAT reason WHY, Water Baptism is still performed...men can not Believe without Seeing "Something"...
Not news. ^

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[FollowHim]

You are all over the place.
I asked you your thoughts on the meaning of love.
You jumped to God. It wasn't about God.
It was about Between people. In my view it is black and white. Doing what is right no matter what other person you are dealing with.
Prisons, drug addicts, mental illnesses are whole other topics.
It is easy to love your friends and show your love by doing right. It's hard to love an enemy and do right by them, but in my opinion doing right is showing love, friend or enemy, and regardless of the consequence, which you seem to have a problem with.
Point is you may not like the Consequences, they may not like the consequence, yet doing right is what matters.

I am sorry, I am wrong because I respond in a way you do not expect.

All it means we think and respond differently. I see what you mean by a moral response, but love is and means so much more than this.

You connect in two dimensions like a law keeper, which I am sure is your mind set. But we are so much more than this in Christ.

You asked what does love mean. And then you dislike my response. Did I say something wrong? I think you thought you knew the subject. In Christ there is no singular response.

Jesus said the people of the Spirit are like the wind. EG also thinks on train tracks, and getting through. This desire you have, where does it come from and what does it want?

Jesus is our all in all, but maybe not for you and I am not like you? It is a wonder that such a divide exists but you show its there. God bless you

 

[APAK]

This thread is needed because eternal security advocates tend to ignore relevant biblical contexts and verse clusters. The thread will initially focus on the 2nd half of the first century (Revelation and then Hebrews) and then shift to Paul and finally to Jesus. In the process, it will be demonstrated that the election and perseverance texts cited by the OSAS advocates are actually irrelevant to the issue. To avoid chaotic discussion please follow my lead and focus your remarks on the biblical book currently under discussion.

1. THE BOOK OF REVELATION

The case against OSAS in Revelation is clearcut and decisive.

“If you conquer, you will be clothed like them in white robes and I will not erase your name from the Book of Life (3:6).”

The threat of erasure implies that the church of Sardis already has their names written in the Book of Life! To prevent the loss of their salvation, they must “conquer,” that is, they must heed the Lord's threat: “Remember then what you have received and heard; obey it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief (3:3).” These Christians must persevere in their faith like “those who have not soiled their garments (3:4).”

In the letter to the church of Smyrna the need to “conquer” is again stressed as the way to avoid losing one's salvation: “Whoever conquers will not be harmed by the second death (2:11).” And how can Christians conquer? “Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life (3:10).” Again, the implication is that if they are not faithful, their names that are already written in the Book of Life will be erased and they will forfeit “the crown of life.” Remember, the Greek word for “faith” also means “faithful.”

I would like to address your OP with several questions.

Are you satisfied that you managed to refute by using scripture that OSOS is not biblical?

You cited Revelation Chapter 3 addressed to Sardis.

What does 'to conqueror' or overcome mean? What must be done to conquer?

And when one conquers what did they achieve? Do they have to re-conquer again?

Or, is this overcoming a single event in time or a life long effort?

You mentioned context in scripture.

What is the context of Rev 3:5?

Are you 100% sure that all of the folks at Sardis had their names in the Book of Life already? And if you are certain, why?

Thanks

APAK

 

[Taken]

I am sorry, I am wrong because I respond in a way you do not expect.

All it means we think and respond differently. I see what you mean by a moral response, but love is and means so much more than this.

You connect in two dimensions like a law keeper, which I am sure is your mind set. But we are so much more than this in Christ.

You asked what does love mean. And then you dislike my response. Did I say something wrong? I think you thought you knew the subject. In Christ there is no singular response.

Jesus said the people of the Spirit are like the wind. EG also thinks on train tracks, and getting through. This desire you have, where does it come from and what does it want?

Jesus is our all in all, but maybe not for you and I am not like you? It is a wonder that such a divide exists but you show its there. God bless you

I am fully aware Of Biblical understanding of Love.

And love between people is about being between people.

People have all kinds of love that have nothing to do with God...
Gushy sex love
Love their cars
Love a movie
Love their pets
And behaviors between people. <---precepts

 

[Taken]

I am sorry, God bless you

No need, all is well.
Thank you and God Bless you,
Taken

 

[FollowHim]

That’s about all you will get from him. Good luck

I am sorry you feel I do dwell in Christ and enjoy His salvation.

People use the term disparaging remarks to summarise certain comments. To encourage everyone to listen and follow Christ is my passion. Does this not warm your heart with a brotherly spirit of the Kingdom?

I suspect not, because rarely have you encouraged me in my love of Jesus. God bless you, and thank you for your example of dedication

 

[justbyfaith]

Of course you can.

If I have the fear of the LORD in me, I shall not depart from Him (Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv)).

If I shall not depart from Him, how then can I depart from Him?

You can wash dirt off your Flesh.
You can wash your clothes.

You can not wash sin off your Flesh.

If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

 

[justbyfaith]

I think that it is safe to say that there has been no comprehensive refutation of OSAS in this thread.

 

[Taken]

If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

Already addressed that...
Crucifixion??? Remember?
That is a dead body.
That Body Is Washed in Jesus Blood


Do you see your dead body? No
Did you See God wash your body in Jesus Blood? No

It is a Spiritual event you can not See.
You can believe it or not, but you can not See what God Does.

And so is that dead Crucified body, washed in Jesus' Blood...draped over your skeleton right now? No.

Do you look at your body and see Jesus' flesh?
No, but that is Spiritually whose body you are using.

It's a mystery of God...
It requires Belief of the knowledge without seeing.

IOW...your body IS cleansed in Jesus Blood...but it is not the Body you can see.

The Scripture is True.
But it is not the Flesh you can see.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

We are not made sinless; while we can be perfected (Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv); Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6).

Correct.
We were CREATED a marvelous body from the Earth elements.
We were MADE alive via a soul.
...and God called His Creation and making;
In HIS Likeness and Image; VERY GOOD.

And then From Adams Seed, men began to be Created and Made in Adams Likeness and Image...corrupt.

We are perfected in that while sin still does continue to dwell in our mortal flesh, it is rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14).

Correct.
The Lord God, Didn't come With Offerings to the VERY GOOD...
He came to Offer the man in Adams Image and Likeness....and Offering to BE made (again and restored) IN Gods Image and Likeness.
Which God Does through His Perfect Son, which Perfects is IN Christ Jesus.

We simply have To Wait To SEE.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BarneyFife]

I never said it was an excuse

John said if we say we have no sin we are deceived

I do not think the fact I continue to fail to love perfectly Means I am excusing my sin

but I do think as John said if we think we are without sin (perfect) we are deceived and in reality excusing the sin we are commuting yet denying (or declaring it is not sin)

And I never said I was without sin but I should be, shouldn't I? If not, then how much sin is OK?

 

[BarneyFife]

So Paul is a liar

ok. Thanks

Straw man