Mary, Queen of Heaven

[Mungo]

I doubt that what was done in the Catholic and Orthodox Church can ever be undone. But you should know the truth. The origination of the title, queen of heaven, is pagan. When Christianity became the state religion, and paganism was outlawed, many things from paganism were brought into Christianity to help make the transition into the church less foreign for the pagans. Thus, besides robes, temples, and hats for the priests, the mystery religion of Babylon, the goddess and her godchild, were turned into Mary and Jesus.

A load of rubbish. You provide no evidence for your claims. probably because there is none.

Jeremiah 7:18
The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven; and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger.

Jeremiah 44:17
But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, were well-off, and saw no trouble.

Jeremiah 44:18
But since we stopped burning incense to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by the sword and by famine.”

Jeremiah 44:19
The women also said, “And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did we make cakes for her, to worship her, and pour out drink offerings to her without our husbands’ permission?”

Already answered in post #5. But to save you looking it up here it is again.

Mary as Queen of Heaven has nothing to do with the pagan cult of the queen of heaven condemned in Jeremiah but relates to her position of the mother of Jesus who is the King of Heaven (and sits on the throne of David) as explained in the OP.

Giving honour to the true Queen of Heaven is not wrong because some pagans 3,000 years ago gave honour to a false queen of heaven, just as worshipping the one true God is not wrong because some pagans 3,000 years ago worshipped false gods.

 

[Mungo]

No it's just radically unbiblical... Patching verses together to have nothing to do with Mary, to come to a false conclusion.

Please point out the errors in the OP rather than just going into denial.

 

[Renniks]

Please point out the errors in the OP rather than just going into denial.

"So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat [throne] brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right.”(1Kg 2:19)"

Making this about Mary is just a terrible Eisegesis. Eisegesis is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text... that's what your entire post is.

 

[Mungo]

"So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat [throne] brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right.”(1Kg 2:19)"

Making this about Mary is just a terrible Eisegesis. Eisegesis is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text... that's what your entire post is.

No it's not terrible exegesis. It is sound.
You reject the conclusion and then work backwards to invent an error.
The incident with Bathsheba show the start of the position of the "Queen Mother" in the Davidic kingdom. It is entirely applicable to Mary as Jesus mother.

 

[101G]

Hi Saboteur,

But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Bible Study Mary

first thanks for the reply, second, yes, a surrogate birth mother, but not a biological birth mother. now if the body was biological/human, as your and mine are, then post his biological father name to that flesh? well. I'll be looking for that answer.

for the angel clearly said, Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing, (thing, here means flesh), which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God". Mary never birthed the Lord who is Spirit, no woman can birth a spirit, for all spirit are given by God, supportive scripture, Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:"

and when you die, that same spirit that was given by God returns to God, it's not yours. so Mary only birthed the body, flesh and it was not concieved by any man. so no sperm nor egg was used, but the scriptures are clear. Hebrews 10:5 "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:" notice Mary, "but a body hast thou prepared me", thou has perpared, not Mary the virgin perpared on her own. we suggest you understand what the term "overshadow" means.

now Mary, a question for you, "did Jesus the spirit come from or out of the virgin womb or did the body of flesh only?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[marks]

Hi,

We remeber her is a special wa on particular days which celebrate certain aspects of her - Mother of God, Queen of Heaven for example. We ask her for her intercession and help.

There is an excellent article on this by Scott Hahn, a convert to Catholicism - Honouring Mary, Imitating Christ
Blessings.

Curious . . . I account Mary blessed above others to have bore our Savior. But if I don't keep her holidays or pray to her for prayers, do you feel I don't honor her?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Peace be with you!

Does "Ave Maria" tell us to bow to Mary?

Much love!

 

[marks]

"So Bathsheba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adonijah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat [throne] brought for the king's mother; and she sat on his right.”(1Kg 2:19)"

Making this about Mary is just a terrible Eisegesis. Eisegesis is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text... that's what your entire post is.

Hi Renniks,

Myself, I can see why @Mungo would point to this passage, as it shows such a position in human courts. I've seen where the mother of the king is given special place at times.

Considering Jesus to be the physical progeny of Mary would, I imagine, make someone more inclined to think of Mary the same way, as the "queen mother". Myself, I think that Jesus, being the "last Adam", this refers to the special creation of His body, and had Jesus been Mary's physical progeny, He would have been born with the same corrupted flesh as Mary lived in, the same as her parents, all the way back to Adam.

"Queen Mother" was an historical practice among the people of Israel. But then Jesus was not king in Israel. Had Jesus been king of Israel, the son of a king of Israel, Mary would be the queen mother according to that practice. But He wasn't, so I don't see extending that practice to the actual circumstances of His life.

I've always felt that Mary's last recorded words in the Bible to be profound, "Do what He tells you".

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

No it's not terrible exegesis. It is sound.
You reject the conclusion and then work backwards to invent an error.
The incident with Bathsheba show the start of the position of the "Queen Mother" in the Davidic kingdom. It is entirely applicable to Mary as Jesus mother.

The Bible never claimed once that Mary is a queen.

 

[marks]

3. The woman is the mother of the reigning king. In the kingdom of David the king might have multiple wives, so the practice was to give the title Queen Mother to the mother of the king. This was instituted by Solomon the son of David.

Hi Mungo,

I've been thinking about this . . . wasn't Bathsheba accorded the honor being the "queen mother"? That is to say, there were two parts . . . one the she was the queen, the other that she was the mother?

So then Mary was the mother of Jesus, but she wan't the queen.

?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The Bible never claimed once that Mary is a queen.

Gee . . . you were posting this as I was posting about the same thing . . .

 

[Renniks]

Queen Mother" was an historical practice among the people of Israel. But then Jesus was not king in Israel. Had Jesus been king of Israel, the son of a king of Israel, Mary would be the queen mother according to that practice. But He wasn't, so I don't see extending that practice to the actual circumstances of His life.

The problem is that people literally pray to Mary. And they will deny that's what they are doing, but it is exactly that. This elevates Mary to Jesus' level or above. And it's just nowhere in scripture. They get there by patching together verses about earthly queens, which have no real relationship to the subject of Mary. It's really a pagan practice that the Catholic Church has adopted, IMO.

 

[Mungo]

Curious . . . I account Mary blessed above others to have bore our Savior. But if I don't keep her holidays or pray to her for prayers, do you feel I don't honor her?

Much love!

How you honour her is up to you. I'm just telling you how Catholics honour her.

 

[Mungo]

The Bible never claimed once that Mary is a queen.

Gee . . . you were posting this as I was posting about the same thing . . .

As I quoted in the OP :
We read in Revelation:
"A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." (Rev 12:1).

This can taken to be a reference to Mary – “and she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (Rev 12:5), which is Jesus. She has on her head a crown – as do queens.

Psalm 45
Psalm 45 is a prophecy of the Messiah’s reign and is addressed to the king and line 9 says: at you right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir. We have seen that in the Davidic kingdom the queen sits, or stands, at the king’s right hand (1Kg 2:19).

[Also in Rev 21:1 the woman is clothed with the sun (i.e golden coloured) just as the queen here is clothed in gold of Ophir.]

 

[Mungo]

Hi Mungo,

I've been thinking about this . . . wasn't Bathsheba accorded the honor being the "queen mother"? That is to say, there were two parts . . . one the she was the queen, the other that she was the mother?

So then Mary was the mother of Jesus, but she wan't the queen.

?

Much love!

"Queen Mother" is English, The Hebrew is gebirah (Strong 1377- gebirah: lady, queen). As she is the mother of the king the title is therefore Queen Mother.
As I said in the OP - "There were 19 kings in Judah after Solomon before they were deported to Babylon. In 17 of these the king’s mother is given, usually after introducing the king, with the words “his mother’s name was ……”. .....

The mother of the king was referred to as the queen mother (1Kg15:13 (& 2Chr 15:16), 2Kg 10:13, Jer 13:18, Jer 29:2.). ...... The KJV just says queen but more modern translations say queen mother as she is the mother of the king.

 

[Mungo]

Hi Renniks,

Myself, I can see why @Mungo would point to this passage, as it shows such a position in human courts. I've seen where the mother of the king is given special place at times.

Considering Jesus to be the physical progeny of Mary would, I imagine, make someone more inclined to think of Mary the same way, as the "queen mother". Myself, I think that Jesus, being the "last Adam", this refers to the special creation of His body, and had Jesus been Mary's physical progeny, He would have been born with the same corrupted flesh as Mary lived in, the same as her parents, all the way back to Adam.

Hence the Immaculate Conception.

"Queen Mother" was an historical practice among the people of Israel. But then Jesus was not king in Israel. Had Jesus been king of Israel, the son of a king of Israel, Mary would be the queen mother according to that practice. But He wasn't, so I don't see extending that practice to the actual circumstances of His life.

I've always felt that Mary's last recorded words in the Bible to be profound, "Do what He tells you".

Much love!

Jesus took the throne of David
"the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (Lk 1:32-33)

 

[marks]

As I quoted in the OP :
We read in Revelation:
"A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." (Rev 12:1).

This can taken to be a reference to Mary – “and she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” (Rev 12:5), which is Jesus. She has on her head a crown – as do queens.

I agree, it can be taken that way. But it can also be taken to mean Israel, isn't that so? It seems to me the passage points more that direction, but I agree it's debatable. But I don't see who this comes out and tells us Mary is the Queen of Heaven, or a queen mother.

Psalm 45

Psalm 45 is a prophecy of the Messiah’s reign and is addressed to the king and line 9 says: at you right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir. We have seen that in the Davidic kingdom the queen sits, or stands, at the king’s right hand (1Kg 2:19).

[Also in Rev 21:1 the woman is clothed with the sun (i.e golden coloured) just as the queen here is clothed in gold of Ophir.]

8 All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad.
9 Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.
10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house;

You've written "stands", I'm looking at KJV which reads "did stand".

This is Young's Literal Translation:

8 Myrrh and aloes, cassia! all thy garments, Out of palaces of ivory Stringed instruments have made thee glad.
9 Daughters of kings [are] among thy precious ones, A queen hath stood at thy right hand, In pure gold of Ophir.
10 Hearken, O daughter, and see, incline thine ear, And forget thy people, and thy father's house,

This seems to me to be about something different, as a past tense thing.

Much love!

 

[marks]

"Queen Mother" is English, The Hebrew is gebirah (Strong 1377- gebirah: lady, queen). As she is the mother of the king the title is therefore Queen Mother.
As I said in the OP - "There were 19 kings in Judah after Solomon before they were deported to Babylon. In 17 of these the king’s mother is given, usually after introducing the king, with the words “his mother’s name was ……”. .....

The mother of the king was referred to as the queen mother (1Kg15:13 (& 2Chr 15:16), 2Kg 10:13, Jer 13:18, Jer 29:2.). ...... The KJV just says queen but more modern translations say queen mother as she is the mother of the king.

But what I'm saying is, aren't you the queen because you are the wife of the king? And then, when you are no longer the wife of the king, because you are now a widow, yet you retain position if your son becomes king, as 'queen mother'. Isn't that what they were doing?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Hence the Immaculate Conception.

Personally I find this more plainly denied in the Bible. If you have "Immaculate Conception", then, "Last Adam" becomes a moot point.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Jesus took the throne of David
"the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end.” (Lk 1:32-33)

Actually, it doesn't say Jesus took the throne, rather, that it will be given to Him. Just the same. When asked, Jesus said, My kingdom is not of this world. The time is coming when Jesus will sit on that throne, the throne of David, after He returns in glory.

I'm curious now, do you think Mary will be at Jesus' right side on a throne when Jesus rules the earth from His throne?

Much love!