Not faith alone?

[kcnalp]

Makes me wonder how many who believe they NEVER sin don't ask for forgiveness and therefore aren't forgiven.
Matthew 6:9-15 (NKJV)
9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors. 13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. 14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

 

[amadeus]

I have a terrible time believing that anyone alive doesn't sin.

Most people on planet Earth seemingly have a terrible time believing that Jesus did not sin. What is impossible for God? Is He in us? Are we hearing His voice? Are we following Him?

"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:26-27

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

 

[justbyfaith]

That's false and derogate to the death of Christ. Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

According to Rom 5 19 how shall the many made righteous?

Through the obedience of Christ as he lives His life in us and through us (Galatians 2:20).

Also, through His obedience in going to Cross; since His blood practically sanctifies (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29) and cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

Makes me wonder how many who believe they NEVER sin don't ask for forgiveness and therefore aren't forgiven.
Matthew 6:9-15 (NKJV)
9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors. 13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. 14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I think that praying that prayer will cover our debts being forgiven across the board. If you look at that passage alone, confessing our sins isn't necessary for forgiveness; only forgiving others in the same way you want to be forgiven.

Now, those who believe that entire sanctification is an obtainable goal, do not, in effect, deny that they are sinners specifically when the Holy Spirit is pinpointing sin to their awareness. It would be a sin and self-deception to do so. But to say that entire sanctification is reachable has a bad taste for many who want to remain in their sins and have the shed blood of Jesus as "fire insurance." It tells them that they need to keep pressing forward if they have not yet been perfected and know it; that they cannot rest on their laurels and think that they will continue to be saved if they do not press into the holiness of the Lord. If you start to go backward, then you are moving in one direction and if you keep moving in that direction you will fall over the cliff where there is burning lava at the bottom.

 

[brightfame52]

Through the obedience of Christ as he lives His life in us and through us (Galatians 2:20).

Also, through His obedience in going to Cross; since His blood practically sanctifies (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29) and cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:7).



I think that praying that prayer will cover our debts being forgiven across the board. If you look at that passage alone, confessing our sins isn't necessary for forgiveness; only forgiving others in the same way you want to be forgiven.

Now, those who believe that entire sanctification is an obtainable goal, do not, in effect, deny that they are sinners specifically when the Holy Spirit is pinpointing sin to their awareness. It would be a sin and self-deception to do so. But to say that entire sanctification is reachable has a bad taste for many who want to remain in their sins and have the shed blood of Jesus as "fire insurance." It tells them that they need to keep pressing forward if they have not yet been perfected and know it; that they cannot rest on their laurels and think that they will continue to be saved if they do not press into the holiness of the Lord. If you start to go backward, then you are moving in one direction and if you keep moving in that direction you will fall over the cliff where there is burning lava at the bottom.

That's completely false.

 

[farouk]

If anyone (not we) sins, we (Christian’s) have an advocate (available for them).

This seems to be the logical sense since later he writes that we do not sin.

@Michiah-Imla John's First Epistle, where that quote comes from, is so searching; I keep going back to it again and again.

 

[kcnalp]

Most people on planet Earth seemingly have a terrible time believing that Jesus did not sin. What is impossible for God? Is He in us? Are we hearing His voice? Are we following Him?

I have no problem believing Jesus was sinless. The Bible clearly says so!

"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:26-27

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

I have a problem with the self righteous folks who declare themselves to be sinless! Ain't Scripture!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

We are justified/saved by grace through faith apart from works.

Romans 4:5-6,

Titus 3:5 (kjv),

Romans 11:5-6 (kjv),

Ephesians 2:8-9.

Those who are truly born again (regenerated and renewed) have the love of the Lord shed abroad in their hearts (Romans 5:5).

Such a love is practical in nature (1 John 3:17-18).

It is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us and will produce good works (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4; Galatians 5:22-23, Titus 3:14).

That's why you can't be saved without works. Genuine justifying faith upholds the righteousness of the law. If your faith does not uphold the law you do not have justifying faith. Real justifying faith solicits the indwelling Holy Spirit—the Spirit that changes us into people who uphold the righteous requirements of the law, more and more as we grow up into the head, Jesus Christ. If that's not happening you aren't born again. You may have been born of water but you have not born of the Spirit........

John 3:5
5 ....no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

 

[justbyfaith]

That's completely false.

No it isn't.

You calling me a liar?

 

[justbyfaith]

That's why you can't be saved without works.

Certain people can be saved without works; simply by believing.

People who are disabled or people who receive the Lord on their deathbeds.

I will agree with you that if the Lord gives you a talent to work with, and you hide it in the sand, you will be counted as a lazy and slothful servant and will be cast into outer darkness.

But the issue here is not whether or not you do good works but your attitude.

Works or no works is merely the outcropping of what attitude you are having in your life.

Certain attitudes are worthy of damnation; others are worthy of life everlasting.

It is the root of our obedience or disobedience that we will be judged concerning; our obedience or disobedience only exemplifies our attitude and we will be judged by what our attitude is, not for the result of our attitude. Because the result may be deceiving. (I may have a great attitude and yet be devoid of works; for specific reasons mentioned.) But they do show forth what our attitude really is for the most part so that before mankind at the judgment, it will be clear who had faith in their lives based on what is written in the books (as concerning our works).

But our works have nothing to do with whether our names are written in the Book of Life; that judgment will be on the basis of our faith. What is written in the other books (concerning our works) will only augment the fact that we had a living and saving faith (or not).

And again, the disabled person, or those who received the Lord on their deathbeds, will definitely enter heaven although they did not have any works to show for their faith.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Define "upholds the law of Moses".

It means uphold and fulfill it's righteous requirements, summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself'.

Romans 13:
9The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” a and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” b 10Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

People who can't uphold the law are not born again. They are still in the realm of the flesh and do not have the Spirit of God in them.

Romans 8:7
7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Certain people can be saved without works; simply by believing.

People who are disabled or people who receive the Lord on their deathbeds.

Anyone, disabled or not, can not lie, not covet, etc.

You can say you believe and are saved all you want but if you can't show by what you do (not lying, not coveting, etc.) that your faith is genuine justifying faith then you do not have the faith that justifies. You have not been born of the Spirit yet.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But the issue here is not whether or not you do good works but your attitude.

Works or no works is merely the outcropping of what attitude you are having in your life.

Call it what you want but it's still works of the law......not coveting, not lying, not hating, etc.

 

[justbyfaith]

So, @Ferris Bueller, what do you do with Ephesians 2:9?

Have you taken scissors and cut it out of your Bible yet?

Blotted it out with ink?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Do you sin?

Yes, but now I can please God. Because now I am in the realm of the Spirit, not in the realm of the flesh.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So, @Ferris Bueller, what do you do with Ephesians 2:9?

Have you taken scissors and cut it out of your Bible yet?

Blotted it out with ink?

If you were really saved per Ephesians 2:9 you'd have the works to prove it. Works only save us in that they are what Jesus will use to validate our faith in him and love for him when separating the sheep from the goats at the final judgment.

 

[justbyfaith]

If you were really saved per Ephesians 2:9 you'd have the works to prove it. Works only save us in that they are what Jesus will use to validate our faith in him and love for him when separating the sheep from the goats at the final judgment.

I am saved; but not because I have the works to prove it (while I do have them).

It is the attitude of obedience (faith) that saves and not the obedience itself.

An attitude of obedience will most assuredly produce obedience.

But it is not the obedience that saves but the faith...the attitude that produces the obedience.

If someone grudgingly obeys God (if they have obedience but not an attitude of obedience) because they think they have to do it to enter heaven, heaven will not be heaven for them; because in heaven they will be required to continue to serve God (Luke 17:5-10) and they would continue to do it begrudgingly if they want to be in heaven at that point at all.

But for the one who is born again; who has an attitude of obedience: when they are required to continue to serve the Lord in heaven, it will be a joy to them and will be heaven for them indeed: because they have an attitude of obedience in which it is their joy to serve the Lord and the people of heaven. This is because they love the Lord over the fact that He first loved them (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5) and therefore practical obedience (1 John 3:17-18) is the outcropping of their salvation (see Romans 5:5).

 

[justbyfaith]

Anyone, disabled or not, can not lie, not covet, etc.

Not doing something, I would not count as a work.

If we bear the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law against such fruit.

But not violating the law in this instance does not count as a work but as fruit.

 

[kcnalp]

It means uphold and fulfill it's righteous requirements, summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself'.

So, it doesn't mean, obey Moses? Then why are you preaching Moses?

Romans 13:
9The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” a and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” b 10Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Amen!

People who can't uphold the law are not born again. They are still in the realm of the flesh and do not have the Spirit of God in them.

The Law COMMANDS to execute sinners. Are you a sinner?

Romans 8:7
7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

The Law COMMANDED executing gays. Do you kill gays?

 

[kcnalp]

Anyone, disabled or not, can not lie, not covet, etc.

You can say you believe and are saved all you want but if you can't show by what you do (not lying, not coveting, etc.) that your faith is genuine justifying faith then you do not have the faith that justifies. You have not been born of the Spirit yet.

Gee, I hope you aren't judged by the way you judge others.

 

[justbyfaith]

Call it what you want but it's still works of the law......not coveting, not lying, not hating, etc.

Again, these are not works of the law...these are not doing what is in violation of the law.

Works have to do with positive behaviour that you do because you love other people in obedience to the law.