Kenosis False Teaching

[Ziggy]

It doesn't really help, as you have not addressed my post.

I had written:

marks said: ↑

Before you start flinging those helpful labels about . . .

John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

What was the glory which Jesus had with the Father, and now asks to have?

Much love!

Did you want to take a stab at answering?

Much love!

And God said: Let there be Light. And God saw the Light that it was Good.
There is none Good but God.
God saw himself and called it Day.
Now are we the children of the Day.

God is the First Day and on the Last Day or Sabbath He rested in it.

that one's easy..

 

[ChristisGod]

Really?

It seemed more like a "Biblical" non-response to me. You avoided my question.

Much love!

You asked about His Glory and I gave you scripture Pre-Incarnation and during His earthly ministry. How is that not an answer ?

If I asked you a question about Jesus Deity you would give me your opinion and no scripture ?

 

[ChristisGod]

Sure thing.

Here's what actually helps . . . Jesus Himself let us know that He didn't know everything. So you can engage with this truth or not, up to you.

Much love!

I will gladly engage you fully.

Do you uphold the 2 natures in Christ ? yes or no

 

[Ziggy]

I wonder what the Lord is thinking as he watches us try to make sense of it all.. lol
I can almost hear the words, but they keep changing..
sometimes laughing, sometimes scolding,
but always loving..
always..
:)

 

[marks]

You asked about His Glory and I gave you scripture Pre-Incarnation and during His earthly ministry. How is that not an answer ?

If I asked you a question about Jesus Deity you would give me your opinion and no scripture ?

You spoke of a glory that Jesus carried with Him, however, I'm inquiring your ideas on what this glory is that Jesus as asking to again have, that is, that He did not have at that time?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I will gladly engage you fully.

Let's engage.

You've stated that Jesus had all knowledge, but Jesus stated that He did not. Which is true?

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

Let's engage.

You've stated that Jesus had all knowledge, but Jesus stated that He did not. Which is true?

Much love!

As per Phil 2:5-9 Jesus set aside, did not use His rights/privilege's as God(equality with God was not something He needed to grasp) and became a servant in obedience to the Father.

Now I will not answer another question until you answer my simple question below.

Do you believe Jesus has 2 natures, the nature of God a Divine nature and the nature of man, a human nature ?

yes or no

@marks

 

[Ziggy]

Praise...
what is Glory?

 

[marks]

As per Phil 2:5-9 Jesus set aside, did not use His rights/privilege's as God(equality with God was not something He needed to grasp) and became a servant in obedience to the Father.

Now I will not answer another question until you answer my simple question below.

Do you believe Jesus has 2 natures, the nature of God a Divine nature and the nature of man, a human nature ?

yes or no

You are still dodging the question.

You've given this assertion, I'm questioning you on it. But you won't answer my question. This is above is yet another non-answer.

Was Jesus omniscient during His earthly ministry before the cross?

The simple answer is, No, He was not. He did not know the time of His Own return. Why? Why did He not know that? Because He, though He was God, yet He emptied Himself, that is, He stopped being omniscient, and only knew what a man knows, and what the Holy Spirit revealed to Him.

This is what it means that He "emptied Himself". He relinquished for His earthly life His limitless knowledge, and power, and presence, and became a man, doing what a man can do, in the power of the Holy Spirit. Did Jesus stop being God? No. Fully God and fully man, yes, I believe that.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

You are still dodging the question.

You've given this assertion, I'm questioning you on it. But you won't answer my question. This is above is yet another non-answer.

Was Jesus omniscient during His earthly ministry before the cross?

The simple answer is, No, He was not. He did not know the time of His Own return. Why? Why did He not know that? Because He, though He was God, yet He emptied Himself, that is, He stopped being omniscient, and only knew what a man knows, and what the Holy Spirit revealed to Him.

This is what it means that He "emptied Himself". He relinquished for His earthly life His limitless knowledge, and power, and presence, and became a man, doing what a man can do, in the power of the Holy Spirit. Did Jesus stop being God? No. Fully God and fully man, yes, I believe that.

Much love!

Does God get hungry ?

Does God get tired ?

Does God get thirsty ?

Does God sleep ?

Does God bleed ?

No those are things we as humans go through the same with knowledge. Jesus grew in wisdom and knowledge like all men do .

So as a man He was limited hence His human nature was limited.
And as God He has no limits other than what He chose to set aside in obedience to the Father as per Philippians 2.

The Hypostatic Union

1. Jesus is a person. (1 Tim 2:5)

2. Jesus, the Person, has two natures- Divine and human (John 1:1, 14, 1 Timothy 3:16): Divine and human. This is the Hypostatic Union.( Col 2:9, Heb 1:3,2:16)

3. The Communicatio Idiomatum (Communication of the Properties) states that the attributes of His Divine nature and human nature are both ascribed to the one Person of Jesus. So Jesus can exhibit attributes of Divinity (Omnipresence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, . John 2:23, 3:13, 8:58, He was prayed to in Acts 7:59, John 14:13, He was is worshiped Matt 2:2:11, Rev 5:13-14) and at the same time exhibit attributes of His humanity( He was tempted, ate, prayed,wept, grew in wisdom and stature,was anointed,was baptized, the Father was greater, didn’t know the day or the hour of His Return, He cried My God my God why has Thou forsaken Me, He died etc.). The communicatio idiomatum does not mean that any part of the Divine nature was communicated to the human nature.


4. The Man(anthropos) Jesus is what we perceive (if we were there 2000 years ago in Israel) and through the Man we encounter the Divine nature (Jesus knowing all things, is on earth while in heaven, answers prayer, forgiving sins, etc.).

5. The Person of Jesus will always be both Divine and human. (John 1:1,14,20:28, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 2:5) Those who deny this fact are the spirit of antichrist. (1 John 4:1-4,2 John 7)

6. The Divine Nature is within the Trinity.(Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

7. Since the Person of Jesus claims the attributes of Divinity(John 3:13,8:58,Matthew 9:2,12:8), then the Person of Jesus is a member of the Trinity.( John 14-16, Math 28:19)

Anything said of either of Christ's two natures applies to the one Person of Christ, so that is how it is said that Christ died on the cross. The term "hypostatic union" refers to the two natures united in the one Person, so anything said of those two natures in the one Person applies to the whole Person. So we see that the Person of Christ is both God and man. The phrase hypostatic union was adopted by the fifth general council at Constantinople, 533 AD. That council declared that the union of two natures is real (against Arius), not a mere indwelling of God in a man (against Nestorius), with a rational soul (against Apollinaris), and that in Christ’s Divine nature remains unchanged (against Eutyches).


hope this helps !!!

 

[marks]

So as a man He was limited hence His human nature was limited.

OK, so then you do acknowledge that Jesus emptied Himself of His omniscience?

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

OK, so then you do acknowledge that Jesus emptied Himself of His omniscience?

Much love!

No He limited His Divine Privilege's to use it which is much different than not having the ability to use it.

Here is my example.

I'm a 5th degree black belt in jujitsu. Now its up to me to hold back from using that ability during a conflict and reason with the person and withhold my ability as a blackbelt and use self restraint with the person.

the same is true with the Omni's in Jesus like with Him not knowing the day or the hour.

But we also see where Jesus used His Omni Attributes as His disciple's attested to below.

They said we know that you are the Son of God for you know all things
They said who is He the with wind and the sea obey His command
He said while He was on earth He was in heaven. He said He saw Nathaniel under the tree when He was not physically present with him.

BTW- there are many more examples of His Omni Attributes that He used in the gospel accounts.

hope this helps !!!

 

[amadeus]

I don't deny anything that you said, I just don't feel that they apply here. I strongly endorse calling a spade, a spade. Sometimes debating these issues can get so protracted that all that is left is to call out the fallacies in their arguments, which I did, ....with strong language.
You're being too delicate, no one goes up to a gang-banger and says, 'hey, stop fighting, be nice to one another', without getting a bleeding nose.
Naivete is not a virtue.

But perhaps there are worse things to be. I have been naive especially about carnal and/or secular since I can remember. Of course early in life I was too naive to realize just how naive I really was. It took many years to be able to look back and see what I had been and more years still before I really moved forward to a more current understanding my own continuing naivety.

As to recognizing spades when I see them, some years ago I was quicker to call them what I believed that I saw. I may not have changed a lot in the last few years as what I believe a spade appears to be, but I have learned to be more willing to express my doubt openly and slow to express and absolute truth.

 

[marks]

No He limited His Divine Privilege's to use it which is much different than not having the ability to use it.

Here is my example.

I'm a 5th degree black belt in jujitsu. Now its up to me to hold back from using that ability during a conflict and reason with the person and withhold my ability as a blackbelt and use self restraint with the person.

the same is true with the Omni's in Jesus like with Him not knowing the day or the hour.

But we also see where Jesus used His Omni Attributes as His disciple's attested to below.

They said we know that you are the Son of God for you know all things
They said who is He the with wind and the sea obey His command
He said while He was on earth He was in heaven. He said He saw Nathaniel under the tree when He was not physically present with him.

BTW- there are many more examples of His Omni Attributes that He used in the gospel accounts.

hope this helps !!!

You example falls short, here's how.

Jesus said He did not know when He was returning. Your example of a fighter is one who possessed the knowledge and skill to fight, but does not. Jesus said He did not know.

So your example would have to be, a fighter who gives up his knowledge/skill to fight.

Everything that Jesus did was directed by the Father and empowered by the Holy Spirit, which is EXACTLY how we are to live our lives, coincidentally.

Much love!

 

[marks]

So as a man He was limited hence His human nature was limited.

What does this mean?

Much love!

 

[101G]

The Hypostatic Union

1. Jesus is a person. (1 Tim 2:5)

2. Jesus, the Person, has two natures- Divine and human (John 1:1, 14, 1 Timothy 3:16): Divine and human. This is the Hypostatic Union.( Col 2:9, Heb 1:3,2:16)

ERROR, Jesus is him, God shared in flesh. supportive scripture, Hebrews 1:3 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;"

no someone else person, no, people just don't understand... listen and learn. Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

my OWN ... ARM is me. duh? ... hello.

and as for our saviour NATURE, he "TOOK ON" a human nature to die from. that nature that he came is is no more, it's been changed, .... resurrected.


Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[amadeus]

CORRECT, now this, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

God's OWN .... ARM? scripture, Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?"Isaiah 53:2 "For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him."Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."Isaiah 53:4 "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

the ARM of the LORD is a "he". .......... his own, own, own arm.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

One God, one arm... then carry this forward if you would to one Body of Christ? Are we becoming effectively or in some way a part of God? Or are we already a part of Him?

"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." John 17:11

Please not too many verses in your answer. My head swirls too easily these days...

 

[marks]

But we also see where Jesus used His Omni Attributes as His disciple's attested to below.

They said we know that you are the Son of God for you know all things
They said who is He the with wind and the sea obey His command
He said while He was on earth He was in heaven. He said He saw Nathaniel under the tree when He was not physically present with him.

We need to be careful readers and thinkers. The disciples said, You know all things, but were they correct? Not according to Jesus. So this is not evidence.

Did the wind and sea obey Jesus because Jesus made his Own decision to command them, and then used His innate power? Or was it as Jesus said, that He only spoke what the Father spoke, and did what the Father did?

That He had both celestial and terrestrial presence, you know we have that too as children of God, yet without even being God, much less having His perogative of power and glory.

Much love!

 

[101G]

Here is my example.

I'm a 5th degree black belt in jujitsu. Now its up to me to hold back from using that ability during a conflict and reason with the person and withhold my ability as a blackbelt and use self restraint with the person.

Bad example. do you know what, "empty", neutralize, or void means? there is nothing to hold back. he the "diversity" GREW in WISDOM while in that natural flesh, and in statue. so no, there is nothing to hold back.

Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[ChristisGod]

You example falls short, here's how.

Jesus said He did not know when He was returning. Your example of a fighter is one who possessed the knowledge and skill to fight, but does not. Jesus said He did not know.

So your example would have to be, a fighter who gives up his knowledge/skill to fight.

Everything that Jesus did was directed by the Father and empowered by the Holy Spirit, which is EXACTLY how we are to live our lives, coincidentally.

Much love!

And Jesus was a man and as a man did not know. He limited His use.

I guess the Father doesn't know something as well - oops.....................

Rev 19:12
and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself."

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