marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
Thankyou John for your OP on the subject of tongues. It is very useful to make you think and study the subject. I am of the belief that you don’t know what you believe until you are challenged, that is why I spend a lot of time debating atheists.
I thought I would add a few thoughts as it might help clarify the situation. First of all, no one believes that the bible is the word of God. WE all believe that our interpretation of it is the word of God. If that wasn’t the case, we would all believe the same thing, so what John posted is not the problem, it is our interpretation.
I have selected some quotes (without names) to show that in giving an interpretation, it is important to make sure that you don’t contradict the obvious.
People who believe they speak in tongues or can heal boast in it...they are not humble before God but rather boast in gifts they believe they have received. If someone really has the ability to heal then why are they not in hospitals healing people...no they hide behind a pulpit.
NOTE: These people are not representative of biblical Christianity, so it is important NOT to use them as examples to prove a point.
In all honesty, I think for the most part, the signs/manifestations that occur today are fake.
NOTE: This is a very dangerous statement for two reasons. One if a miracle does happen say a child is raised from the dead; it is hardly ingenious to say that it is a fake and that it did not happen. Two such an event can only happen if the Holy Spirit is involved. The scriptures tell us that the unforgivable sin is to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. To do that means that you call the work of the Holy Spirit the work of the devil, which is what you are doing if you are calling miracles that happen a fake.
I never said any such thing...this post is from the work of another and not my own
NOTE: when you post something you must be prepared to back it up even if what you posted has been written by someone else.
The tongues that the disciples in the first century spoke were actual foreign languages. This gift was given in order for the Jewish disciples to preach to the gentiles....many of whom did not speak Hebrew or Greek. Acts 2:5-6 "As it was, there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, reverent men, from every nation of those under heaven. 6 So, when this sound occurred, the multitude came together and were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language."
NOTE: You say the gift was given to allow the Jewish disciples to preach to the gentiles. Yet the verse you have quoted to back that up says “there were dwelling in Jerusalem JEWS,….from every nation under heaven. No mention of gentiles.
What kind of tongue do you think Paul is referring to here? 1Cor. 14:2
NOTE: in this verse the word tongues in the Greek is “glossa” which means speaking in another language as in Arabic, French, and Scandinavian etc.
For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, [fn]you will be talking to God but not to people, since they won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious.
NOTE: Again, the word is glossa which means speaking in another foreign language. In an English speaking country, speaking French would be a mystery to most. Paul is saying that is not what he wants to happen. He wanted interpretation of the language. In other words, someone who understand French.
Its for that reason that the gifts were said to eventually 'cease' 1 Corinthians 13:8, 9, 10 they had served their purpose in establishing the true religion and those whom God was identifying himself with. The millions of believers today are a result of the first century congregation so we could say that God was quite successful.
NOTE: The problem with this comment is that the gifts of the Spirit have not ceased. In Nigeria, raising people from the dead is as commonplace as going to a meeting. That means the scripture is not wrong, the interpretation is.
Also, our faith must be based on 'truth'....this is referring to knowledge. We need accurate knowledge as Jesus said at John 17:3
NOTE: Yet those who believe that the gifts have ceased haven’t noticed that it says that knowledge will pass away as well. How can faith be based on knowledge if it has passed away?
Oh and Martin...I'm not just talking to you...this goes for everyone...if I feel like debating on this I would have put it in that section....I am not here to debate every little post I make. I am here to fellowship and spread truth...that is all
NOTE: The so called “truth” is subjective so the truth is that you are spreading your interpretation of the truth.
Spiritual gifts were needed in the past in order to convince people that God was with the Christians and in fulfillement of the above prophecy. Have a look at Acts 2:5,6,7 The tongues being spoken were foreign languages for the purpose of reaching foreign nations with the message of God.
NOTE: Spiritual gifts were needed in the past and are needed in THE PRESENT. The western church has dumbed down the gospel and removed the supernatural from it. Places like Africa still believe what the bible says and as a result miracles are happening all the time and people are being added to the church daily as a result. Can we say the same about our church in the West?
So love is the identifying mark of a true Christian, not tongues, not prophesying, not raising the dead....just love.
NOTE: This comment is nothing new and people have said as long as we love one another we don’t need anything else. One might say as long as we have been born again we don’t need sanctification. One might say as long as we attend meetings we don’t need holiness. Love and the Gifts have different purposes so we need both.
The only reason why this could be so is because the miraculous gifts were not going to be around forever as Paul said...they would cease and it seems that they ceased after the deaths of the apostles.
NOTE: Not if you want to see the obvious. I receive reports from all around the world and the miraculous happens all the time.
The accounts of gifts being performed in the bible were always in the company of the apostles so it would seem that logically, after the deaths of the apostles, the gifts ceased back then.
NOTE: I prefer to address things spiritually, not logically as the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit.
Its also apparent that by Jesus words at Matt. 7:21-23, that gifts were not the means of identifying the true Christians for he said "i never knew you" and these are the words for Christians living in the 'last days' which is our time today.
NOTE: This passage is not dealing with “true” Christians.
All I’m saying is that there is a better way to attain faith then on the things we can see. If faith is based on a visible thing, what happens to that faith if the visible thing goes away? Will the person continue to have faith? Perhaps not.
NOTE: When you pray for a dead person to receive life, you are not basing your faith on something visible. You are having faith in what God can do.
Whereas if the persons faith is based on knowledge and understanding, that is something that will always be with them and they will not be easily shaken from their faith because it is a faith based on reason and logic.
NOTE: That is not possible if “knowledge” has been done away with.
How do you know you have faith? By what you see.
NOTE: Faith the scripture tells is the evidence of things not seen.
And what new spiritual information could share with us that we don’t already have?
NOTE: The greatest thing that a believer can have is fellowship with the Father. I talk to him all the time and he talks to me. I expect him to tell me things I don’t know and which he does. Just imagine if you asked your earthly father something and he replied “go and read a book I have written.”
Ephesians 4:11 - Apostleship, Prophecy, Evangelism, Pastor/Teacher
NOTE: These are not gifts of the spirit. They are gifts of the ascended Christ.
The "gifts" will prove nothing to anyone today about the coming presence of the Lord on earth, the near-at-hand Kingdom, because when He returns to earth in flesh, it will be for judgment, not salvation.
NOTE: How do you know?
Just because God doesn’t work actively in your world does not mean that he cannot choose to elsewhere. Pick you major reformer in the evangelical church over the last 2000 years and I will tell you about the signs, wonders and miracles that have accompanied them. The Wesleyans, the Booths, the Welsh Revival, the great awakenings in the US, all of them have come with signs, wonders and miracles. You can try to keep your God in a box if you want to, but mine keeps breaking out & I love it!
NOTE: And them are the facts!!!!
As to determining that my position is correct, sorry to break the news to you but EVERYONE assumes they are correct.
NOTE: Quite correct.
all the prophecies that we need have already been provided for us so I can't imagine that we have need of anything new right now....the bible is 'complete' and we know everythign that is going to happen from now thru to the end of the 1000 years of Christs Millenial reign and thru to the time when people will once again become the 'children of God' and be fully reconciled to him.
NOTE: A prophecy is not about something new. It is about God speaking to his people about something that he wants them to know. I don’t think the Welsh revival was prophesied in the bible. I don’t think that a barren woman who had a prophecy that she was going to bear a child is prophesied in the bible.
Just a few thoughts that I hope will make you stop and think. Since the French Revolution, the western church has replaced the supernatural with the natural. As a result it is generally powerless, for the simple reason we are not fighting against flesh and blood. We are fighting against spiritual principalities and powers which mean satanic powers.
Paul didn’t say they were going to disappear when the bible was come because he didn‘t have any idea about a “bible“ coming into being. You try and defeat the devil with logic and he will wipe the floor with you. You come up against him with the power of the Holy Spirit and the supernatural authority of God which has been given to us and he is out of here quick smart.
If you think otherwise, the devil has you well and truly duped.
And finally, finally, ALL scripture is given by God for….not some of it.
I thought I would add a few thoughts as it might help clarify the situation. First of all, no one believes that the bible is the word of God. WE all believe that our interpretation of it is the word of God. If that wasn’t the case, we would all believe the same thing, so what John posted is not the problem, it is our interpretation.
I have selected some quotes (without names) to show that in giving an interpretation, it is important to make sure that you don’t contradict the obvious.
People who believe they speak in tongues or can heal boast in it...they are not humble before God but rather boast in gifts they believe they have received. If someone really has the ability to heal then why are they not in hospitals healing people...no they hide behind a pulpit.
NOTE: These people are not representative of biblical Christianity, so it is important NOT to use them as examples to prove a point.
In all honesty, I think for the most part, the signs/manifestations that occur today are fake.
NOTE: This is a very dangerous statement for two reasons. One if a miracle does happen say a child is raised from the dead; it is hardly ingenious to say that it is a fake and that it did not happen. Two such an event can only happen if the Holy Spirit is involved. The scriptures tell us that the unforgivable sin is to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. To do that means that you call the work of the Holy Spirit the work of the devil, which is what you are doing if you are calling miracles that happen a fake.
I never said any such thing...this post is from the work of another and not my own
NOTE: when you post something you must be prepared to back it up even if what you posted has been written by someone else.
The tongues that the disciples in the first century spoke were actual foreign languages. This gift was given in order for the Jewish disciples to preach to the gentiles....many of whom did not speak Hebrew or Greek. Acts 2:5-6 "As it was, there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, reverent men, from every nation of those under heaven. 6 So, when this sound occurred, the multitude came together and were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language."
NOTE: You say the gift was given to allow the Jewish disciples to preach to the gentiles. Yet the verse you have quoted to back that up says “there were dwelling in Jerusalem JEWS,….from every nation under heaven. No mention of gentiles.
What kind of tongue do you think Paul is referring to here? 1Cor. 14:2
NOTE: in this verse the word tongues in the Greek is “glossa” which means speaking in another language as in Arabic, French, and Scandinavian etc.
For if your gift is the ability to speak in tongues, [fn]you will be talking to God but not to people, since they won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious.
NOTE: Again, the word is glossa which means speaking in another foreign language. In an English speaking country, speaking French would be a mystery to most. Paul is saying that is not what he wants to happen. He wanted interpretation of the language. In other words, someone who understand French.
Its for that reason that the gifts were said to eventually 'cease' 1 Corinthians 13:8, 9, 10 they had served their purpose in establishing the true religion and those whom God was identifying himself with. The millions of believers today are a result of the first century congregation so we could say that God was quite successful.
NOTE: The problem with this comment is that the gifts of the Spirit have not ceased. In Nigeria, raising people from the dead is as commonplace as going to a meeting. That means the scripture is not wrong, the interpretation is.
Also, our faith must be based on 'truth'....this is referring to knowledge. We need accurate knowledge as Jesus said at John 17:3
NOTE: Yet those who believe that the gifts have ceased haven’t noticed that it says that knowledge will pass away as well. How can faith be based on knowledge if it has passed away?
Oh and Martin...I'm not just talking to you...this goes for everyone...if I feel like debating on this I would have put it in that section....I am not here to debate every little post I make. I am here to fellowship and spread truth...that is all
NOTE: The so called “truth” is subjective so the truth is that you are spreading your interpretation of the truth.
Spiritual gifts were needed in the past in order to convince people that God was with the Christians and in fulfillement of the above prophecy. Have a look at Acts 2:5,6,7 The tongues being spoken were foreign languages for the purpose of reaching foreign nations with the message of God.
NOTE: Spiritual gifts were needed in the past and are needed in THE PRESENT. The western church has dumbed down the gospel and removed the supernatural from it. Places like Africa still believe what the bible says and as a result miracles are happening all the time and people are being added to the church daily as a result. Can we say the same about our church in the West?
So love is the identifying mark of a true Christian, not tongues, not prophesying, not raising the dead....just love.
NOTE: This comment is nothing new and people have said as long as we love one another we don’t need anything else. One might say as long as we have been born again we don’t need sanctification. One might say as long as we attend meetings we don’t need holiness. Love and the Gifts have different purposes so we need both.
The only reason why this could be so is because the miraculous gifts were not going to be around forever as Paul said...they would cease and it seems that they ceased after the deaths of the apostles.
NOTE: Not if you want to see the obvious. I receive reports from all around the world and the miraculous happens all the time.
The accounts of gifts being performed in the bible were always in the company of the apostles so it would seem that logically, after the deaths of the apostles, the gifts ceased back then.
NOTE: I prefer to address things spiritually, not logically as the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit.
Its also apparent that by Jesus words at Matt. 7:21-23, that gifts were not the means of identifying the true Christians for he said "i never knew you" and these are the words for Christians living in the 'last days' which is our time today.
NOTE: This passage is not dealing with “true” Christians.
All I’m saying is that there is a better way to attain faith then on the things we can see. If faith is based on a visible thing, what happens to that faith if the visible thing goes away? Will the person continue to have faith? Perhaps not.
NOTE: When you pray for a dead person to receive life, you are not basing your faith on something visible. You are having faith in what God can do.
Whereas if the persons faith is based on knowledge and understanding, that is something that will always be with them and they will not be easily shaken from their faith because it is a faith based on reason and logic.
NOTE: That is not possible if “knowledge” has been done away with.
How do you know you have faith? By what you see.
NOTE: Faith the scripture tells is the evidence of things not seen.
And what new spiritual information could share with us that we don’t already have?
NOTE: The greatest thing that a believer can have is fellowship with the Father. I talk to him all the time and he talks to me. I expect him to tell me things I don’t know and which he does. Just imagine if you asked your earthly father something and he replied “go and read a book I have written.”
Ephesians 4:11 - Apostleship, Prophecy, Evangelism, Pastor/Teacher
NOTE: These are not gifts of the spirit. They are gifts of the ascended Christ.
The "gifts" will prove nothing to anyone today about the coming presence of the Lord on earth, the near-at-hand Kingdom, because when He returns to earth in flesh, it will be for judgment, not salvation.
NOTE: How do you know?
Just because God doesn’t work actively in your world does not mean that he cannot choose to elsewhere. Pick you major reformer in the evangelical church over the last 2000 years and I will tell you about the signs, wonders and miracles that have accompanied them. The Wesleyans, the Booths, the Welsh Revival, the great awakenings in the US, all of them have come with signs, wonders and miracles. You can try to keep your God in a box if you want to, but mine keeps breaking out & I love it!
NOTE: And them are the facts!!!!
As to determining that my position is correct, sorry to break the news to you but EVERYONE assumes they are correct.
NOTE: Quite correct.
all the prophecies that we need have already been provided for us so I can't imagine that we have need of anything new right now....the bible is 'complete' and we know everythign that is going to happen from now thru to the end of the 1000 years of Christs Millenial reign and thru to the time when people will once again become the 'children of God' and be fully reconciled to him.
NOTE: A prophecy is not about something new. It is about God speaking to his people about something that he wants them to know. I don’t think the Welsh revival was prophesied in the bible. I don’t think that a barren woman who had a prophecy that she was going to bear a child is prophesied in the bible.
Just a few thoughts that I hope will make you stop and think. Since the French Revolution, the western church has replaced the supernatural with the natural. As a result it is generally powerless, for the simple reason we are not fighting against flesh and blood. We are fighting against spiritual principalities and powers which mean satanic powers.
Paul didn’t say they were going to disappear when the bible was come because he didn‘t have any idea about a “bible“ coming into being. You try and defeat the devil with logic and he will wipe the floor with you. You come up against him with the power of the Holy Spirit and the supernatural authority of God which has been given to us and he is out of here quick smart.
If you think otherwise, the devil has you well and truly duped.
And finally, finally, ALL scripture is given by God for….not some of it.