Those who deny Eternal Security
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Anyone who doesn't exactly and specifically agree with Matt Slick (CARM) is defined by Matt Slick (along with Diane) to be a heretic.
I have and it is shown that Jesus is the "fellow" of the Angelic hosts there, as well as being the Uncreated and eternal Son. Hebrews 1 shows that Jesus is the highest messenger of the Father in Hebrews 1. See this full study from the scripture (KJB), Chapter 10:
Specifically see Question:
[10-G] Question 07: How can Jesus, who is JEHOVAH [E/I]mmanuel, be “Michael the archangel”, or “the angel of the LORD” since in Hebrews 1:1-14 KJB the passage says that Jesus is “so much better than the angels” [Hebrews 1:4 KJB], has “a more excellent name than they” [Hebrews 1:4 KJB] and all the “angels of God” are to “worship him [Jesus]” [Hebrews 1:6 KJB] because He is “the brightness of his [the Father's] glory, and the express image of his [the Father's] person” [Hebrews 1:3 KJB]?
If you do not desire to read, then I will cover it here with you.
If you do not desire to read, then I will cover it here with you.
Thus you are calling all these heretics, see Chapter 11 (detailed list) and Appendix 2 (short list):
https://archive.org/download/michael-the-archangel-x-2-appendix-2-the-short-historical-list-of-those-who-taught-jesus-is-michael/Michael the archangel [X2] - Appendix 2 The Short Historical List of those who taught Jesus is Michael.pdf
https://archive.org/download/michael-the-archangel-11-messengers-of-the-lord-the-reformation-etc/Michael the archangel [11] - Messengers of the LORD & the Reformation & etc.pdf
https://archive.org/download/michael-the-archangel-11-messengers-of-the-lord-the-reformation-etc/Michael the archangel [11] - Messengers of the LORD & the Reformation & etc.pdf
99.9% correct. Jesus is the "Angel" (Messenger of the Father) which is Uncreated and eternal Deity. Jesus is Deity (Nature) and Angel (Office).
Actually, Jesus is not in Revelation 4. That is only the Father, the 4 Living Creatures and 24 Elders. Chapter 5 is where Jesus and the other angels show up, after His ascension.
It seems you are afraid to actually consider evidence contrary to your Idol Matt Slick, which, by the way, I sent him all the material on the subject also. Do you know how he responded to it? He responded by ignoring it.
Not at all. I do not appeal to authority, except as Scripture is that authority (Isaiah 8:20). What I have done is shown that Calvin, even Calvinists and many others taught that Michael and Jesus are the same Being from the scripture. So I am not appealing to them. I appeal to the scripture they cited, even without them being present in the study. See the very first introductory statements in Chapter 11:
https://archive.org/download/michael-the-archangel-11-messengers-of-the-lord-the-reformation-etc/Michael the archangel [11] - Messengers of the LORD & the Reformation & etc.pdf
It reads thus:
"... [11] Messengers of the LORD & the Reformation, along with various prominent Theologians, Commentators, Concordances, Dictionaries, Lexicons and others who teach that “Michael the archangel” is the Eternal Almighty Son of God, JEHOVAH [E/I]mmanuel - Jesus, and/or the “angel of the LORD”, the very highest messenger from the bosom of the Father
Side note, IMPORTANT, PLEASE READ BEFORE CONTINUING:
[*This list is by far from complete, though representative, and may be added to by any who will continue to diligently search the historical records in various languages and places. By no means, is any source listed herein, rare though they be, that actually denies the Eternal Deity and Godhood of Jesus [or that of the Holy Spirit] in any way, agreed to in that specific point, nor herein promoted as correct or to be advocated, but is rather scripturally heretical and to be roundly shown to be in error in the love of Jesus.]
Side note, IMPORTANT, PLEASE READ BEFORE CONTINUING:
[*This list is by far from complete, though representative, and may be added to by any who will continue to diligently search the historical records in various languages and places. By no means, is any source listed herein, rare though they be, that actually denies the Eternal Deity and Godhood of Jesus [or that of the Holy Spirit] in any way, agreed to in that specific point, nor herein promoted as correct or to be advocated, but is rather scripturally heretical and to be roundly shown to be in error in the love of Jesus.]
Roman Catholicism, and those calling themselves 'Orthodoxy' [whether Greek, Eastern or Oriental, etc] in their sources and that which they call 'church-fathers' which they often cite [Augustine, Tertullian, Irenaeus, etc], in spite of others who disagreed with them, in general, do not teach that Michael the archangel is the Son of God, but deny this.
However, they will often times identify the “angel of the LORD” as the Son of God, and so separate this single person into two beings, and degrade the Eternal and Heavenly Deity of Michael the archangel to that of a differing lesser created being, which is what all pagan religions do – ie, attack the Eternal Deity of Jesus in some way or another, lowering Deity in some form or fashion and elevating creation [such as their angel 'veneration' and 'Mary' hyper-dulia/veneration]. In point of fact, this was one of the very issues of contention between those of the Reformation and those of Roman Catholicism, in which Luther, Melanchthon and others, having gone back to the study of the scriptures, identified clearly that Michael the archangel is the Son of God – Jesus, the very Eternal JEHOVAH God, the Son, the Uncreated “angel of the LORD”.
Another group, identifying themselves as the Watch Tower and/or Jehovah's Witnesses, having gone half-way back unto the teachings Roman Catholicism, denying the Reformation and the work of the person of the Holy Spirit that was working therein, are merely the opposite side of the coin of Roman Catholicism in this issue, for while they, borrowing from the earlier studies of the Reformation, teach rightly that Michael the archangel is the same person as the Son of God – Jesus, they then wrongly do as Roman Catholicism does in the other portion of the character and reduce the Uncreated Deity of His nature [Philippians 2:5-11 KJB, etc] to that mere creation, even of the 'first created' who created 'all [other] things' [thus both adding and taking away from scripture; Revelation 22:18-19 KJB], and even alter the scriptures in their KIT [Kingdom Interlinear Translation] and NWT [New World Translation], which itself is really nothing more than another [harsh] English version of the corrupt Alexandrian manuscripts, namely Codex Aleph [Sinaiticus], B [Vaticanus] and A [Alexandrinus], etc. They are not cited herein though they would also say that Michael the archangel is the Son of God, and the “angel of the LORD”.
One or two others cited below later became Arian [they deny the Eternal Deity of the Son of the Father' nature, which is a clear heresy and deadly in eternal matters, John 8:21,24 KJB], and they are cited only for their many resources in regards this subject, as they identify many scriptures and other person who, through their own study of the scriptures, teach that Michael the archangel is the Son of the Father, and that He is Eternal God, Deity.
All sources cited from herein are not to determine what the scripture [KJB] says, nor are to be the foundation of any teaching. They are cited for the texts and passages they cite in coming to their conclusions, and how they came to their conclusion/s ..."
However, they will often times identify the “angel of the LORD” as the Son of God, and so separate this single person into two beings, and degrade the Eternal and Heavenly Deity of Michael the archangel to that of a differing lesser created being, which is what all pagan religions do – ie, attack the Eternal Deity of Jesus in some way or another, lowering Deity in some form or fashion and elevating creation [such as their angel 'veneration' and 'Mary' hyper-dulia/veneration]. In point of fact, this was one of the very issues of contention between those of the Reformation and those of Roman Catholicism, in which Luther, Melanchthon and others, having gone back to the study of the scriptures, identified clearly that Michael the archangel is the Son of God – Jesus, the very Eternal JEHOVAH God, the Son, the Uncreated “angel of the LORD”.
Another group, identifying themselves as the Watch Tower and/or Jehovah's Witnesses, having gone half-way back unto the teachings Roman Catholicism, denying the Reformation and the work of the person of the Holy Spirit that was working therein, are merely the opposite side of the coin of Roman Catholicism in this issue, for while they, borrowing from the earlier studies of the Reformation, teach rightly that Michael the archangel is the same person as the Son of God – Jesus, they then wrongly do as Roman Catholicism does in the other portion of the character and reduce the Uncreated Deity of His nature [Philippians 2:5-11 KJB, etc] to that mere creation, even of the 'first created' who created 'all [other] things' [thus both adding and taking away from scripture; Revelation 22:18-19 KJB], and even alter the scriptures in their KIT [Kingdom Interlinear Translation] and NWT [New World Translation], which itself is really nothing more than another [harsh] English version of the corrupt Alexandrian manuscripts, namely Codex Aleph [Sinaiticus], B [Vaticanus] and A [Alexandrinus], etc. They are not cited herein though they would also say that Michael the archangel is the Son of God, and the “angel of the LORD”.
One or two others cited below later became Arian [they deny the Eternal Deity of the Son of the Father' nature, which is a clear heresy and deadly in eternal matters, John 8:21,24 KJB], and they are cited only for their many resources in regards this subject, as they identify many scriptures and other person who, through their own study of the scriptures, teach that Michael the archangel is the Son of the Father, and that He is Eternal God, Deity.
All sources cited from herein are not to determine what the scripture [KJB] says, nor are to be the foundation of any teaching. They are cited for the texts and passages they cite in coming to their conclusions, and how they came to their conclusion/s ..."
Indeed. Now will you take back the false charge you laid against me, and consider the evidence from scripture alone with me? Or will you do as Matt Slick has done? Ignore the evidence?
Are you afraid of what you will find? I have no such fear. Let us study the matter from scripture, and go point by point, question by question. Ready when you are, that is if you are able to control your emotion.
rechoir those who declare Jesus is an angel are teaching false doctrine.
end of story.
hope this helps !!!
end of story.
hope this helps !!!
Who is being spoken of in Malachi 3:1 (name all parties involved):
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:1 Behold,H2009 I will sendH7971 my messenger,H4397 and he shall prepareH6437 the wayH1870 beforeH6440 me: and the Lord,H113 whomH834 yeH859 seek,H1245 shall suddenlyH6597 comeH935 toH413 his temple,H1964 even the messengerH4397 of the covenant,H1285 whomH834 yeH859 delightH2655 in: behold,H2009 he shall come,H935 saithH559 the LORDH3068 of hosts.H6635
Mal 3:1 הנני שׁלח מלאכי ופנה־דרך לפני ופתאם יבוא אל־היכלו האדון אשׁר־אתם מבקשׁים ומלאך הברית אשׁר־אתם חפצים הנה־בא אמר יהוה צבאות׃
Mal 3:1 הנניH2005 שׁלחH7971 מלאכיH4397 ופנהH6437 דרךH1870 לפניH6440 ופתאםH6597 יבואH935 אלH413 היכלוH1964 האדוןH136 אשׁרH834 אתםH859 מבקשׁיםH1245 ומלאךH4397 הבריתH1285 אשׁרH834 אתםH859 חפציםH2655 הנהH2009 באH935 אמרH559 יהוהH3068 צבאות׃H6635
Mal 3:1 ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ κύριος, ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης, ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει κύριος παντοκράτωρ.
Mal 3:1 ιδουG2400 INJ εγωG1473 P-NS εξαποστελλωG1821 V-PAI-1S τονG3588 T-ASM αγγελονG32 N-ASM μουG1473 P-GS καιG2532 CONJ επιβλεψεταιG1914 V-FMI-3S οδονG3598 N-ASF προG4253 PREP προσωπουG4383 N-GSN μουG1473 P-GS καιG2532 CONJ εξαιφνηςG1810 ADV ηξειG1854 V-FAI-3S ειςG1519 PREP τονG3588 T-ASM ναονG3485 N-ASM εαυτουG1438 D-GSM κυριοςG2962 N-NSM ονG3739 R-ASM υμειςG4771 P-NP ζητειτεG2212 V-PAI-2P καιG2532 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM αγγελοςG32 N-NSM τηςG3588 T-GSF διαθηκηςG1242 N-GSF ονG3739 R-ASM υμειςG4771 P-NP θελετεG2309 V-PAI-2P ιδουG2400 INJ ερχεταιG2064 V-PMI-3S λεγειG3004 V-PAI-3S κυριοςG2962 N-NSM παντοκρατωρG3841 N-NSM
Mal 3:1 Behold,H2009 I will sendH7971 my messenger,H4397 and he shall prepareH6437 the wayH1870 beforeH6440 me: and the Lord,H113 whomH834 yeH859 seek,H1245 shall suddenlyH6597 comeH935 toH413 his temple,H1964 even the messengerH4397 of the covenant,H1285 whomH834 yeH859 delightH2655 in: behold,H2009 he shall come,H935 saithH559 the LORDH3068 of hosts.H6635
Mal 3:1 הנני שׁלח מלאכי ופנה־דרך לפני ופתאם יבוא אל־היכלו האדון אשׁר־אתם מבקשׁים ומלאך הברית אשׁר־אתם חפצים הנה־בא אמר יהוה צבאות׃
Mal 3:1 הנניH2005 שׁלחH7971 מלאכיH4397 ופנהH6437 דרךH1870 לפניH6440 ופתאםH6597 יבואH935 אלH413 היכלוH1964 האדוןH136 אשׁרH834 אתםH859 מבקשׁיםH1245 ומלאךH4397 הבריתH1285 אשׁרH834 אתםH859 חפציםH2655 הנהH2009 באH935 אמרH559 יהוהH3068 צבאות׃H6635
Mal 3:1 ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ κύριος, ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης, ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει κύριος παντοκράτωρ.
Mal 3:1 ιδουG2400 INJ εγωG1473 P-NS εξαποστελλωG1821 V-PAI-1S τονG3588 T-ASM αγγελονG32 N-ASM μουG1473 P-GS καιG2532 CONJ επιβλεψεταιG1914 V-FMI-3S οδονG3598 N-ASF προG4253 PREP προσωπουG4383 N-GSN μουG1473 P-GS καιG2532 CONJ εξαιφνηςG1810 ADV ηξειG1854 V-FAI-3S ειςG1519 PREP τονG3588 T-ASM ναονG3485 N-ASM εαυτουG1438 D-GSM κυριοςG2962 N-NSM ονG3739 R-ASM υμειςG4771 P-NP ζητειτεG2212 V-PAI-2P καιG2532 CONJ οG3588 T-NSM αγγελοςG32 N-NSM τηςG3588 T-GSF διαθηκηςG1242 N-GSF ονG3739 R-ASM υμειςG4771 P-NP θελετεG2309 V-PAI-2P ιδουG2400 INJ ερχεταιG2064 V-PMI-3S λεγειG3004 V-PAI-3S κυριοςG2962 N-NSM παντοκρατωρG3841 N-NSM
Only because you refuse to even look. What are you so afraid of finding? If your position were true, you would have the utmost confidence to show me where I and so many others have erred, from scripture.
It shows me you greatly fear to look.
Time to let Scripture show the ERRORS of your wayward beliefs where the Son is distinguished from the created angles who worship the Son. Angels only worship God. End of story.
Hebrews 1
The Son Superior to Angels
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”?
Or again,
“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7 In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”
8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”
13 To which of the angels did God ever say,
“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”?
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
hope this helps !!!
You are unwilling to discuss Malachi 3:1 and want to discuss Hebrews 1 instead, do I understand you correctly? If so, let me know and I will take you up on your challenge to consider Hebrews 1.
OzSpen
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Paul was literally shipwrecked 3 times and saved each time.He was prevented several times from getting to his final destination. But as we read he kept going on and finally reached his destination. Being shipwrecked does not mean lost. Paul was not lost but shipwrecked. The same with ones faith it can get shipwrecked but that does not mean the person is lost and cannot continue on his path. He has gone off course and delayed temporarily from his final destination.
hope this helps !!!
Chris,
Seems like you can't read the plain English of 1 Tim 1:19 (NIV): "some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith". Isn't that language straight forward?
Oz
OzSpen
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Another in along line who do not understand Hebrews 10..... there is no excuse for that these days...... the “ stiff- necked gonna be “ stiff- necked” I suppose....
Here's a free hint for Newbies that want to obey God and “ Prove themselves to be Good students of the Word That can “ Rightly Divide” the Word Of God —- Lazy, stubborn people who are-not good students will eventually “ stand ashamed “ for their willful ignorance....
Read the Nine Chapters “ BEFORE” Hebrews 10. The ONLY SIN being discussed is the Sin Of UNBELIEF. That’s what is continued to be discussed in chapter 10. A KID could figure it out. Some in here can’t . “ Text Without CONtext is Error!” ........Some never learn that...
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Not only the unbelieving Jews are legalists, but there are tares amongst the wheat in many churches who are.
I believe I answered the question, now whether or not you agree is another story.
Of course; however, if anyone has the Holy Ghost, the vail has been taken away (for they have turned to the Lord).
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
The "Angel of the Lord" is a title given to the pre-incarnate Christ, as the Word in human form. Jesus was also the "burning bush." He was also the fourth person in the furnace with Daniel's three friends. He is actually neither an angel nor a bush. And Michael is an archangel and not to be worshiped, whereas the Angel of the Lord can be.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Some actually call the fourth man in the furnace a Christophany. Thought you'd like that.
I call it a theophany seeing as the Word is God and before God became flesh and dwelt among us.
They are the same since Jesus is God but not the Father which makes it a ChristophanySome actually call the fourth man in the furnace a Christophany. Thought you'd like that.
I call it a theophany seeing as the Word is God and before God became flesh and dwelt among us.
I say that they are the same now that I know what you believe. Make sense ?
They are the same since Jesus is God but not the Father which makes it a Christophany
I say that they are the same now that I know what you believe. Make sense ?
Of course, God is God the Father and Jesus is not 1/3 of God; and neither is He a 2nd God...He is fully God (Colossians 2:9).
And of course, Jesus will be called "the everlasting Father" in the final end of things (Isaiah 9:6-7); and there is no denying that.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Some actually call the fourth man in the furnace a Christophany. Thought you'd like that.
I call it a theophany seeing as the Word is God and before God became flesh and dwelt among us.
Yes.They are the same since Jesus is God but not the Father which makes it a Christophany
I say that they are the same now that I know what you believe. Make sense ?
I've always called Old Testament sightings theophanies, seeing as the Father and Spirit are both invisible, so that leaves the Word which is more tangible. And New Testament sightings of Jesus as the light around Saul of Tarsus a Christophany.
Yes plus Jesus said no man has seen the Father except the Son and that no one has heard His voice nor seen His form. That leaves the Son who was seen and heard in the OT.
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