Those who deny Eternal Security
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Very thoughtful response, but I must respectfully disagree. I posted in response to a statement that the tares are unbelievers who look like believers. Wheat does not look like tares (to the harvesters, especially). Also, the Bible does not teach that the scope of teaching by parable is limited. Parables have been studied extensively and have been a rich source of instruction. You can find entire books written on single parables. If there is a main thrust of this parable, wouldn't it have to be that there is an inherent danger in human beings (specifically, believers) judging other human beings' spiritual condition and standing with God at any time? This has always been the way I have heard this parable taught.
“He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the children of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy that sowed them is the devil; and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.” [Matt. 13:37-39]
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Let both grow together - They would not spoil the true wheat, and in time of harvest it would be easy to separate them.
Our Saviour teaches us here:
1. That hypocrites and deceived persons must be expected in the church.
2. That this is the work of the enemy of man. They are not the work of Christianity any more than traitors are of patriotism, or counterfeiters are of the proper effect of legislating about money. They belong to the world, and hypocrisy is only one form of sin. The Christian religion never "made" a hypocrite, nor is there a hypocrite on the earth whose principles and practice it does not condemn.
3. That all hope of removing them entirely would be vain.
4. That an "attempt" to remove them altogether would injure real Christianity, by causing excitements, discord, and hard feelings even among Christians.
5. That Christ will himself separate them at the proper time. There is no doubt that it is the duty of the church to keep itself pure, and to cut off gross and manifest offenders, 1 Corinthians 5:4-5; but the Saviour refers here to those who may be "suspected" of hypocrisy, but against whom it cannot be proved; to those who so successfully imitate Christians as to make it difficult or impossible for man to distinguish them.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
Let both grow together—that is, in the visible Church.
until the harvest—till the one have ripened for full salvation, the other for destruction. (See on [1292]Mt 13:39).
and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers—(See on [1293]Mt 13:39).
Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them—"in the fire" (Mt 13:40).
but gather the wheat into my barn—Christ, as the Judge, will separate the two classes (as in Mt 25:32). It will be observed that the tares are burned before the wheat is housed; in the exposition of the parable (Mt 13:41, 43) the same order is observed: and the same in Mt 25:46—as if, in some literal sense, "with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked" (Ps 91:8).
Third and Fourth Parables or Second Pair:
The Mustard Seed and The Leaven (Mt 13:31-33).
The subject of both these parables, as of the first pair, is the same, but under a slight diversity of aspect, namely—
The GROWTH OF THE KINGDOM FROM THE Smallest Beginnings to Ultimate Universality.
The Mustard Seed (Mt 13:31, 32).
Meyer's NT Commentary
The explanation of the parable, which latter is different from that given in Mark 4:26 ff. (in answer to Holtzmann, Weiss), is furnished by Jesus Himself in Matthew 13:37 ff. It is to this effect. The visible church, up till the day of judgment, is to comprise within its pale those who are not members of the invisible church, and who shall have no part in the kingdom that is to be established. The separation is not a thing with which man is competent to deal, but must be left in the hands of the Judge. The matter is to be understood, however, in a broad and general way, so that it cannot be said at all to affect the right of individual excommunication and restoration. In regard to individuals, there remains the possibility (to which, however, the parable makes no reference whatever): “ut qui hodie sunt zizania, eras sint frumentum,” Augustine.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Let both grow together - They would not spoil the true wheat, and in time of harvest it would be easy to separate them.
Our Saviour teaches us here:
1. That hypocrites and deceived persons must be expected in the church.
2. That this is the work of the enemy of man. They are not the work of Christianity any more than traitors are of patriotism, or counterfeiters are of the proper effect of legislating about money. They belong to the world, and hypocrisy is only one form of sin. The Christian religion never "made" a hypocrite, nor is there a hypocrite on the earth whose principles and practice it does not condemn.
3. That all hope of removing them entirely would be vain.
4. That an "attempt" to remove them altogether would injure real Christianity, by causing excitements, discord, and hard feelings even among Christians.
5. That Christ will himself separate them at the proper time. There is no doubt that it is the duty of the church to keep itself pure, and to cut off gross and manifest offenders, 1 Corinthians 5:4-5; but the Saviour refers here to those who may be "suspected" of hypocrisy, but against whom it cannot be proved; to those who so successfully imitate Christians as to make it difficult or impossible for man to distinguish them.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
Let both grow together—that is, in the visible Church.
until the harvest—till the one have ripened for full salvation, the other for destruction. (See on [1292]Mt 13:39).
and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers—(See on [1293]Mt 13:39).
Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them—"in the fire" (Mt 13:40).
but gather the wheat into my barn—Christ, as the Judge, will separate the two classes (as in Mt 25:32). It will be observed that the tares are burned before the wheat is housed; in the exposition of the parable (Mt 13:41, 43) the same order is observed: and the same in Mt 25:46—as if, in some literal sense, "with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked" (Ps 91:8).
Third and Fourth Parables or Second Pair:
The Mustard Seed and The Leaven (Mt 13:31-33).
The subject of both these parables, as of the first pair, is the same, but under a slight diversity of aspect, namely—
The GROWTH OF THE KINGDOM FROM THE Smallest Beginnings to Ultimate Universality.
The Mustard Seed (Mt 13:31, 32).
Meyer's NT Commentary
The explanation of the parable, which latter is different from that given in Mark 4:26 ff. (in answer to Holtzmann, Weiss), is furnished by Jesus Himself in Matthew 13:37 ff. It is to this effect. The visible church, up till the day of judgment, is to comprise within its pale those who are not members of the invisible church, and who shall have no part in the kingdom that is to be established. The separation is not a thing with which man is competent to deal, but must be left in the hands of the Judge. The matter is to be understood, however, in a broad and general way, so that it cannot be said at all to affect the right of individual excommunication and restoration. In regard to individuals, there remains the possibility (to which, however, the parable makes no reference whatever): “ut qui hodie sunt zizania, eras sint frumentum,” Augustine.
TheslightestID
Active Member
Unless Peter dies in on going unrepented sin, I, as some who is not a believer in eternal security, don't see why he would necessarily have not been saved when he died.
Though only God knows for certain if we died in a born again state, we know what God expects of us, so if we are close to someone, we can get a pretty good idea if they were saved when they died. However, there simply were not enough details given in the OP to come even close to knowing if Peter was saved.
Did he repent of his sin, would be a main detail. If he asked forgiveness each time, and got back on the track of acting right, then fine, if not, that could be a problem.
Point being there is no huge problem for non eternal security people here, it's all a matter of logic. We all know what God expects of us, and that he is willing to forgive if we only sincerely try. Did Peter do what was expected? No one knows.
Fact is, we don't even know if some of the other disciples hung in there til the end.
Actually, the names of the twelve (excluding Judas; whether his replacement was Matthias or Paul) are written on the foundations of the holy city (Revelation 21:14). I would think that this means that they will be living there, since they are thusly honoured, don't you think?
TheslightestID
Active Member
TheslightestID
Active Member
Lets just hope he held on till the end, and I have no good reason to believe he didnt.
Jude 24 says that the Lord is 'able to keep'; and has nothing to do with the merits of feeble human effort supposedly hanging on...
TheslightestID
Active Member
TheslightestID
Active Member
I'm refuting that by usung the parable of the sower, so if youd like to see why I think you are wrong, check it out if you like. I mean if it had nothing to do with his merits, he would not have lost his salvation....but he did
My reading is that the one who had no root, never had true salvation in the first place.
TheslightestID
Active Member
You added the part about that having nothing to do with merits, as the scripture you mentioned says nothing about that.
For all we know, I mean if we are making things up and adding to the scripture, the lord is "able to keep" us in a state where we will have the necessary merits.
TheslightestID
Active Member
Read the last two words in that scripture, and tell me what you think he "fell away" from?
There was nothing that he was rooted in, in the first place, because he had 'no root'.
TheslightestID
Active Member
I am drawing your attention to how I see the person's original lack of true life is expressed. Whether or not you accept this, is not my responsibility. Please specify what you say you require of me.
TheslightestID
Active Member
A simple answer the question. But if you'd rather not, that's ok....thanks just the same.
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