The deep danger of politicizing Christianity. It simply reveals our deep need for revival.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2018
16,828
25,504
113
Buffalo, Ny
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't know that I would broad brush people in that way.

As for any particular Christian being unaware of Bible truths, perhaps it is the responsibility of their pastor. Perhaps there isn't a Bible study group available. Perhaps they don't schedule time to study on their own. Perhaps they're a member of a denomination that doesn't teach Bible truth.

I haven't seen any tables that show that to be the case compared to all nations in the world.

Yes, I saw that bumper sticker as well. Only it referred to a car and garage.
/QUOTE]

"Yes, I saw that bumper sticker as well. Only it referred to a car and garage."
:D

Also, if I could give your post 10 "likes" I would. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: WaterSong

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,762
3,786
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
On what grounds do you make this assertion? God has everything to do with the Gentile nations, and at this point in history He desires the salvation of all the Gentiles. Indeed He commands all men EVERYWHERE to repent.

That is individuals, not nations. If a nation turns to Him or seeks Him, He will honor that nation. otherwise, unless God chooses to intervene (usually because evil is out of control) it is far and few in between as far as nations go. but when you look at history, especially OT history- nations are dealt with, in relationship to what God wanted to do for or against Israel!

No gentile nation on earth has any special relation with God. We are either blessed or suffer based on the level of sin a nation tolerates.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,762
3,786
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I don't know that I would broad brush people in that way.

As for any particular Christian being unaware of Bible truths, perhaps it is the responsibility of their pastor. Perhaps there isn't a Bible study group available. Perhaps they don't schedule time to study on their own. Perhaps they're a member of a denomination that doesn't teach Bible truth.

I speak generally. Over 65 million call themselves born again. that is 20% of the population. If we were actively serving god- we should see a difference in this nation!

They allowed all people to live free. Not just Christians.
Pagans, Deists, atheists, agnostics, satanists, etc... are all free to believe and practice, within reason of course, one cannot claim to be a Theistic Satanist and commit to human sacrifice as a religious right.

Yes they kind of did. but more often than not, in their writings when they spoke of religion, they were referring to denominations and not religioni n the generic sense.

I haven't seen any tables that show that to be the case compared to all nations in the world.

I will see if I can find them again.

The SCOTUS found it was a matter of a woman's right to privacy. Personal opinions stop at the womb of another person.
Giving birth doesn't make someone a mother. How many newborn babies enter this world addicted to drugs? Because their womb donor was a junkie who stayed high all nine months of their gestation!

Ever heard a baby coming off of drugs they've been fed for nine months cry? I have. I was a volunteer in a newborn nursery. One patient only delivered her addicted little one because no matter how much heroine she shot up that pesky pain in her stomach wouldn't go away. So finally , she decided to go to the hospital.

That was a candidate for sterilization. And believe me, the nurses I worked with were more than ready to schedule an OR for the procedure.

And what chance does that newborn life have being a junkie drying out before they're a day old in this world?

So you believe it is okay to murder unborn humans. Yes there are numerous tragedies, but the bulk of abortions are convenience slaughtering of the innocents. and adding the reality you intentionally snuffed outa living human being only adds to teh personal tragedy. I don 't care that a SCOTUS ruled- that is no the constitution, but the opinion of one SCOTUS that can be overturned. The Constitution cannot be overturned by SCOTUS.

I'm aware of such sites. That founders were Christian and Deist and even atheist is evidence this country was not intended to be a Christian theocracy.

You are falsely conflating being a Christian nation with being a Christian theocracy. The two are not the same! Even a SCOTUS i the late 1800's declared America to be a Christian nation.

The governments paid to have the bible ALONE printed and given to troops. the government paid for a Christian Chaplain alone for the armed forces and congress.

States and towns paid the Christian churches to educate the children! Many many churches doubled as school houses. Yes we welcomed all, but that does not mean that the founding was anything but Christian.

11 of the 13 colonies in their charters declared the founding to the glory of God

Washington had the church bells ring across America to call people to pray at His inauguration. Then afterwards led the people at his inauguration to a prayer meeting.

"Separation of Church and state" appears in no official document. It was written in a letter to a Danbury Baptist Church. And the emphasis was to protect the church from the sate not the state from the church!

Lots of evidence that Christianity was the favored faith for the American Nation.

When the crown and the church were united in Great Britain, people died horrific deaths for falling short of what the law proclaimed righteous and right living. Hanged, guillotined, burned at the stake, tortured on the rack to confess what the twisted imaginations of the inquisitors wanted to hear that accused heretic admit to. Believing them to have run afoul of God's laws.

And if that poor tortured soul relented and confessed just to make the evil stop? Ah, guilty after all. Just as was thought. And then they were killed. Not set free.

Only that wasn't to purge the land of so called heretics. Who were often times Protestants. No, in some cases it was because that person owned properties the church or some other interest with connections to the church and or crown wanted. And that owner had previously refused to sell.

But, accuse them of heresy, torture and then kill them, and those lands are now property of the church and state. And lookie there, the lands are now affordable.

None are so powerful or perverse as fallen man thinking they have the right to act as God and judge accordingly.

Which is why the 1st Amendment was written it was to protect America from that. But states had their favored religions. tey protected this nation from having a national denomination!

Mass. Congreagational
Rhode Island Baptist
Pennsylvania- Quaker
Virginia, Maryland , Florida- Catholic


That's what I'm trying to tell you. Your vote won't make abortion illegal. That's not how it works. Are you aware there are rules controlling abortion access in America now? State by state? abortion restrictions by state 2020 - Bing

And what of those diagnosis wherein a pregnant woman will die if she carries to term?
Would you permit her the right to live by electing to have an abortion to save her life?
Do you volunteer at abortion alternative clinics? Giving frightened girls and women an alternative to abortion through proper guidance and an open heart?

Wtong it can! If I vote in a man or woman who is a strict constructionalist or originalist- We can end the slaughter of Abortion.

As for women carrying to term and the risk of their life? That is less than .1% but if she can carry long enough now- they can C- Section the baby and she can be a wonderful mom if she chooses.

My wife had an ectopic pregnancy. We were catholics back then about 43 years ago. We went to a Catholic hoispital and the first question we asked was could they move the baby? They said no. We were told the options and we ended the babies life! for is the baby kept growing- both would die.

No I have not ministered at prolife houses. I have given to their work, but that is not a ministry I was ever called to.

You're mistaken.
The laws prosecute the absence of morality, decency and common sense. The laws do not instill them.

No you are mistaken.

Laws are passed to define what a nation to believes to be moral or not. If they have a law against murder- they have legislated murder to be immoral. The opposite is true. If a nation has no law to prosecute murder, then that nation considers murder to be moral.

Those of us who vote do use our voice. Our system of representative government allows us to choose who from among the public domain we wish to represent our wishes and best interests.
How's that working out so far?
Without looking, do you know who your representatives in Congress are? Do you know what voting district your home is in?

Yes I do! to all of the above.

Paul also said this:
Romans 13:1-7
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;read more.

And then there is this.
Submission to Authorities 1 Peter 2:
13 Be subject to every human institution for the Lord’s sake, whether to a king as supreme 14 or to governors as those he commissions to punish wrongdoers and praise those who do good. 15 For God wants you to silence the ignorance of foolish people by doing good. 16 Live as free people, not using your freedom as a pretext for evil, but as God’s slaves. 17 Honor all people, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the king.

Unless they demand us to disobey God! then we are bound to a higher law. Otherwise I agree 100%.

If America outlawed bible believing chruch meetings, I woulsd still meet. and be willing to accept the consequences of obeying God rather than men.

I visited a man in China is a doctor for over 65,000 people. He spent three years in hard labor in the Gobi desert for the crime of being a Bible believing Christian! I was humbled by His godly spirit and devotion to the Lord.
 

WaterSong

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2020
2,245
2,277
113
Kansas City
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I speak generally. Over 65 million call themselves born again. that is 20% of the population. If we were actively serving god- we should see a difference in this nation!
What's happening in this nation is our responsibility?
What about God? All things happen according to his will and for his glory.
Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
Romans 13:2
Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

Yes they kind of did. but more often than not, in their writings when they spoke of religion, they were referring to denominations and not religioni n the generic sense.
And some were writing to insure readers knew that they were not manifesting a declaration that America become a Theocracy.

I will see if I can find them again.
Thank you.



So you believe it is okay to murder unborn humans. Yes there are numerous tragedies, but the bulk of abortions are convenience slaughtering of the innocents. and adding the reality you intentionally snuffed outa living human being only adds to teh personal tragedy. I don 't care that a SCOTUS ruled- that is no the constitution, but the opinion of one SCOTUS that can be overturned. The Constitution cannot be overturned by SCOTUS.
Please don't presume I am pro-abortion. I'm simply telling you how the law works. And why abortion was legalized.
Did you know that at one time in America birth control was illegal?



You are falsely conflating being a Christian nation with being a Christian theocracy. The two are not the same! Even a SCOTUS i the late 1800's declared America to be a Christian nation.
It is the same. Especially when you believe the 1892 SCOTUS case, Holy Trinity Church v. the United States, was the SCOTUS declaration that America is a Christian nation.
That wasn't the what happened.
If America was officially a Christian Nation, our- government would have the authority to insure privilege, promote, endorse, support, and encourage Christianity. And all other belief systems and even the non-religious would be second class citizens.
You're not the first Christian to think that case was a decree. And most who know of it believe it was the writing of justice Brewer that made that decree to be an official SCOTUS opinion that America is a Christian nation. But they're wrong.
Brewer wrote a book not long after that case and in part intended to clarify what had been taken out of proportion in his decision. He intended to set the record straight for those Christians who imagined it was now official; that America's laws are not designed to enforce the primacy of Christianity or its values.

From his book: The United States: A Christian Nation.
[sic]"...But in what sense can [the United States] be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or the people are compelled in any manner to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that 'congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' Neither is it Christian in the sense that all its citizens are either in fact or in name Christians. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within its borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all. [...] (Edited to remove double post of this quote)

The governments paid to have the bible ALONE printed and given to troops. the government paid for a Christian Chaplain alone for the armed forces and congress.
The military chaplains handbook contains information about every religion the enlisted may be a member of. Including that of pagan faiths like Wicca. And they are therein qualified to serve all those who are members of any faith. Even atheists.

States and towns paid the Christian churches to educate the children! Many many churches doubled as school houses. Yes we welcomed all, but that does not mean that the founding was anything but Christian.
The founding of this nation was that of a secular government overseeing all citizens, some of which happened to be Christian.

If we were intended to be a Christian nation our laws would encompass God's laws. And, as we know, God said, thou shalt have no other gods before me. Therefore, the first amendment would not exist as it does today and has from its inception.
Nor would Article 6 of the U.S Constitution "No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”
The U.S Constitution, the Federalist Papers, the Declaration of Independence, all show evidence America was not founded as a Christian nation.

“As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

[John Adams submitted and signed the Treaty of Tripoli, 1797]”


11 of the 13 colonies in their charters declared the founding to the glory of God

Washington had the church bells ring across America to call people to pray at His inauguration. Then afterwards led the people at his inauguration to a prayer meeting.

"Separation of Church and state" appears in no official document. It was written in a letter to a Danbury Baptist Church. And the emphasis was to protect the church from the sate not the state from the church!

Lots of evidence that Christianity was the favored faith for the American Nation.
That's fine. And we find may cities and towns named after places in the scripture. It doesn't mean America was founded as a Christian nation. America's government is secular. Thank God.

Which is why the 1st Amendment was written it was to protect America from that. But states had their favored religions. tey protected this nation from having a national denomination!
The first amendment was drafted to insure America was protected from becoming a Christian theocracy. The separation of church and state should lend evidence of that intention as well.



Yep, another split reply due to a limit in characters length. :D
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

WaterSong

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2020
2,245
2,277
113
Kansas City
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Continued)

Mass. Congreagational
Rhode Island Baptist
Pennsylvania- Quaker
Virginia, Maryland , Florida- Catholic
Yes, Massachusetts Bay colony was founded in 1630 by Puritans from England. And their Governor was John Winthrop.
As I previously mentioned, history records what those Puritans did in prosecuting their faith against their own people whom they suspected of not being Puritans but heretics.
Do you want that repeat in all 50 states now that England is no longer in the picture?

1682 William Penn founded the Pennsylvania colony for all faiths.
William Penn and Religious Freedom - Independence National Historical Park (U.S. National Park Service)

You are able to find the facts about the other colonies if you wish. \

Wtong it can! If I vote in a man or woman who is a strict constructionalist or originalist- We can end the slaughter of Abortion.
You of course are free to believe that. However, America is not a dictatorship. Voting in a man or woman who is a strict constitutionalist or originalist will not make abortion illegal. Especially not when it was the Constitution that was invoked in order to make abortion legal.
In point of fact if you do the research you'll find there is a movement afoot now seeking to petition Congress to make for a national abortion rights law.
And again, in that effort the Constitution is a factor; the commerce clause.

As for women carrying to term and the risk of their life? That is less than .1% but if she can carry long enough now- they can C- Section the baby and she can be a wonderful mom if she chooses.
You might wish to access resources for that information that are not that of extreme pro-life origin.

[sic]"...The United States has got the worst maternal death rate of any developed nation, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. And we’re one of the only industrialized countries in which the number of deaths are on the rise.

According to the CDC, about 700 U.S. women die every year as a result of high-risk pregnancy or delivery complications, while up to 50,000 women nearly die due to severe complications such as heart attacks or hemorrhages during pregnancy or delivery. (That's despite the fact that, according to 2017 research published in The Lancet, the United States spends more money on healthcare than any other country does—around $9,237 a person each year.)

Even scarier: According to the World Health Organization, about half of maternal deaths in the U.S. are preventable, so long as there's increased awareness and pregnant women can get access to quality care." [2017 Women's Health :5 Things You Never Knew About How Dangerous Pregnancy Is In The U.S. Pregnancy-related deaths are on the rise. Here's why.



My wife had an ectopic pregnancy. We were catholics back then about 43 years ago. We went to a Catholic hoispital and the first question we asked was could they move the baby? They said no. We were told the options and we ended the babies life! for is the baby kept growing- both would die.
And if abortion had been totally illegal no matter what back then?

No I have not ministered at prolife houses. I have given to their work, but that is not a ministry I was ever called to.
OK. But you feel led to insist all women must remain pregnant no matter what and under penalty of law that, when that law did exist in America, cost the lives of countless women and their babies. Either because abortion to save the life of the woman was not permitted. Or because a desperate woman sought an illegal abortion and was butchered to death by a quack who cared more about the money than his oath.

No you are mistaken.
I am not. We shall leave it at that.

Laws are passed to define what a nation to believes to be moral or not. If they have a law against murder- they have legislated murder to be immoral. The opposite is true. If a nation has no law to prosecute murder, then that nation considers murder to be moral.
And yet we have states in America wherein the state is permitted to kill people found guilty of murder. Given there are people who have been exonerated from death row because they were innocent of the charges warranting their death, the death penalty is state sanctioned killing, taking of a life. And in the case of taking an innocent life, murder.

The laws of this country do not instill morality, common sense, nor decency. They prosecute the absence thereof when deemed a criminal act.
Yes I do! to all of the above.
OK.

Unless they demand us to disobey God! then we are bound to a higher law. Otherwise I agree 100%.

If America outlawed bible believing chruch meetings, I woulsd still meet. and be willing to accept the consequences of obeying God rather than men.
Good thing you don't reside in California. Or any other state wherein the Covid-19 lock down restrictions prohibit church gatherings.

I visited a man in China is a doctor for over 65,000 people. He spent three years in hard labor in the Gobi desert for the crime of being a Bible believing Christian! I was humbled by His godly spirit and devotion to the Lord.
Well, that's Communist China.
Now imagine Christian America, with laws codified to the structure of God's laws and prosecuted the same. His China would be our America for the non-Christian.

This Christian would never let that happen. Freedom of religion in our laws insures freedom from religion. I.E. A Christian theocratic model taking the place of our free Constitutional Democratic Republic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2018
16,828
25,504
113
Buffalo, Ny
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Continued)

Yes, Massachusetts Bay colony was founded in 1630 by Puritans from England. And their Governor was John Winthrop.
As I previously mentioned, history records what those Puritans did in prosecuting their faith against their own people whom they suspected of not being Puritans but heretics.
Do you want that repeat in all 50 states now that England is no longer in the picture?

1682 William Penn founded the Pennsylvania colony for all faiths.
William Penn and Religious Freedom - Independence National Historical Park (U.S. National Park Service)

You are able to find the facts about the other colonies if you wish. \

You of course are free to believe that. However, America is not a dictatorship. Voting in a man or woman who is a strict constitutionalist or originalist will not make abortion illegal. Especially not when it was the Constitution that was invoked in order to make abortion legal.
In point of fact if you do the research you'll find there is a movement afoot now seeking to petition Congress to make for a national abortion rights law.
And again, in that effort the Constitution is a factor; the commerce clause.

You might wish to access resources for that information that are not that of extreme pro-life origin.

[sic]"...The United States has got the worst maternal death rate of any developed nation, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. And we’re one of the only industrialized countries in which the number of deaths are on the rise.

According to the CDC, about 700 U.S. women die every year as a result of high-risk pregnancy or delivery complications, while up to 50,000 women nearly die due to severe complications such as heart attacks or hemorrhages during pregnancy or delivery. (That's despite the fact that, according to 2017 research published in The Lancet, the United States spends more money on healthcare than any other country does—around $9,237 a person each year.)

Even scarier: According to the World Health Organization, about half of maternal deaths in the U.S. are preventable, so long as there's increased awareness and pregnant women can get access to quality care." [2017 Women's Health :5 Things You Never Knew About How Dangerous Pregnancy Is In The U.S. Pregnancy-related deaths are on the rise. Here's why.



And if abortion had been totally illegal no matter what back then?

OK. But you feel led to insist all women must remain pregnant no matter what and under penalty of law that, when that law did exist in America, cost the lives of countless women and their babies. Either because abortion to save the life of the woman was not permitted. Or because a desperate woman sought an illegal abortion and was butchered to death by a quack who cared more about the money than his oath.

I am not. We shall leave it at that.

And yet we have states in America wherein the state is permitted to kill people found guilty of murder. Given there are people who have been exonerated from death row because they were innocent of the charges warranting their death, the death penalty is state sanctioned killing, taking of a life. And in the case of taking an innocent life, murder.

The laws of this country do not instill morality, common sense, nor decency. They prosecute the absence thereof when deemed a criminal act.
OK.


Good thing you don't reside in California. Or any other state wherein the Covid-19 lock down restrictions prohibit church gatherings.

Well, that's Communist China.
Now imagine Christian America, with laws codified to the structure of God's laws and prosecuted the same. His China would be our America for the non-Christian.

This Christian would never let that happen. Freedom of religion in our laws insures freedom from religion. I.E. A Christian theocratic model taking the place of our free Constitutional Democratic Republic.

Awesome, you speak like someone I used to listen to for years. You put all of that wonderfully, and I could NOT agree more. Everything you posted here, is so very on point and well worded...are you a lawyer?? Lol.


 
  • Like
Reactions: WaterSong

WaterSong

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2020
2,245
2,277
113
Kansas City
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Awesome, you speak like someone I used to listen to for years. You put all of that wonderfully, and I could NOT agree more. Everything you posted here, is so very on point and well worded...are you a lawyer?? Lol.

Aww, thanks. :) No, I'm not a Lawyer. I'm a truck driver. Really.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,762
3,786
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, Massachusetts Bay colony was founded in 1630 by Puritans from England. And their Governor was John Winthrop.
As I previously mentioned, history records what those Puritans did in prosecuting their faith against their own people whom they suspected of not being Puritans but heretics.
Do you want that repeat in all 50 states now that England is no longer in the picture?

red Herring. they dedicated their endeavor to the glory of god. The fact that they had bad doctrine doesn't change that fact. Caatholica killed protestants, protestants killed catholics. Should we no longer allow bible reading?

Please don't presume I am pro-abortion. I'm simply telling you how the law works. And why abortion was legalized.
Did you know that at one time in America birth control was illegal?

So wasn't working on sunday. But that has nothing to do with the slaughter of the unborn. Funny, but there is no federal law on teh books allowing abortion. Just actions as a result of a judicial opinion.

Are you intentionally trying to denigrate the christian faith your avatar says you belong to.

This Christian would never let that happen. Freedom of religion in our laws insures freedom from religion. I.E. A Christian theocratic model taking the place of our free Constitutional Democratic Republic.

true, but that does not mean we strip religion from the public mind. children prayed in schools till the 1960's and the ACLU got Madeline Murray O'hare to go against prayer. McGuffeys Eclectic Primer was a standard reading text and heavily laced with Scripture till the early to mid 20th Century. All the things you say are true, but do not negate the fact that america was founded and governed as a Christian nation. Not a theocracy whixh is a strawman, but a nation heavily influenced by biblical prinicples.

I would take imperfect Christians establishing a government than imperfect secularists establishing a government.


And yet we have states in America wherein the state is permitted to kill people found guilty of murder. Given there are people who have been exonerated from death row because they were innocent of the charges warranting their death, the death penalty is state sanctioned killing, taking of a life. And in the case of taking an innocent life, murder.

The laws of this country do not instill morality, common sense, nor decency. They prosecute the absence thereof when deemed a criminal act.

God commanded for mankind the death penalty for murder. But you don't seem to have a problem with teh legal killing of 55,000,000 children versus teh few who have been killed (all of whom were crominals in some fashion) and were innocent. I will take a few killed by mistake over having over 750,000 children a year wiped out.

We have a law that says thou shalt not commit murder!, Another thou shalt not steal! those are legislating morality like it or not. And we punish those who violate those morals encoded in law. But I agree no law can make a man moreal internally, nor instill common sense or decency. that takes a regenerated heart!

Good thing you don't reside in California. Or any other state wherein the Covid-19 lock down restrictions prohibit church gatherings.

You overreact. Teh lockdowns are across the spectrum, not just churches. If it was just bible believing churches, then believers would find a way to meet. but it is not, so the statement you made is irrelavent.

OK. But you feel led to insist all women must remain pregnant no matter what and under penalty of law that, when that law did exist in America, cost the lives of countless women and their babies. Either because abortion to save the life of the woman was not permitted. Or because a desperate woman sought an illegal abortion and was butchered to death by a quack who cared more about the money than his oath.

spare the theatrics. If the life of the mother is directly threatened by the pregnancy- then yes , she should abort. Better for just one to die instead of both. And talking abu thje past when the gynecological and obstretic practices were far less precise is irrelevant. Countless? I doubt it.

I do not think you will find many cases of women being denied an abortion knowing that carrying the baby would kill here amount to many. show some stats to back your theatrics. My wife had an ectopic pregnancy ended in a Catholic hospital in the 1970's.

And women who wish to murder their babies will find a way no matter what. We shold not condone cold blooded murder just because somebody want s to commit murder.

The first amendment was drafted to insure America was protected from becoming a Christian theocracy. The separation of church and state should lend evidence of that intention as well.



Yep, another split reply due to a limit in characters length

Russia has a law separating church and state. We don't.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,762
3,786
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Part 2 due to length.

It is the same. Especially when you believe the 1892 SCOTUS case, Holy Trinity Church v. the United States, was the SCOTUS declaration that America is a Christian nation.
That wasn't the what happened.
If America was officially a Christian Nation, our- government would have the authority to insure privilege, promote, endorse, support, and encourage Christianity. And all other belief systems and even the non-religious would be second class citizens.

On February 29, 1892, The Supreme Court declared (in Holy Trinity v. United States) that the historical record of America overwhelmingly demonstrated that the United States “… is a Christian nation.” Contrary to this historical and legal record, judges throughout the end of the twentieth and beginning of the twenty-first centuries have repeatedly ruled against the place that Christianity has enjoyed in American life. Rather than render decisions consistent with the legal foundation of America, activist judges have taken it upon themselves to attempt to establish a new foundation for American law—that being the subjective opinions of liberal activist judges. Thousands of pieces of evidence exist that demonstrate that America was founded as a Christian nation, and Holy Trinity v. United States is only one of the many pieces of that mosaic of historical truth.


And our government did support and endorse Christianity above all alse. They paid churches to educate, still pass out bibles, paid chaplains. It is only recently that they went to multi faith chaplains and such.

You of course are free to believe that. However, America is not a dictatorship. Voting in a man or woman who is a strict constitutionalist or originalist will not make abortion illegal. Especially not when it was the Constitution that was invoked in order to make abortion legal.
In point of fact if you do the research you'll find there is a movement afoot now seeking to petition Congress to make for a national abortion rights law.
And again, in that effort the Constitution is a factor; the commerce clause.

No, but they wioll appoint SCOTUS Justices who can overturn the opinion passed down earlier. Once again abortion is legal not by statute, but by opinioon of SCOTUS> as such a future SCOTUS can issue a new opinion. that is why liberals hate conservative presidents. That is why Shumer went nuts over McConnell. He knew the Roe v. Wade could be in target.

Well teh Commerce clause could be used by the butchers, by forcing states trying to restrict abortions to open up for more. Unfair commerce. Like they did in WW 2 when they threatened to jail farmers fro growing their own silage for their cows citing interstate commerce. Right now that law has been so twisted, government can force you to abandon a private little garden in your yard under interstate commerce. That is why I like originalist justices. REad and enforce the law as written and not reinterpreted.

You might wish to access resources for that information that are not that of extreme pro-life origin.

[sic]"...The United States has got the worst maternal death rate of any developed nation, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. And we’re one of the only industrialized countries in which the number of deaths are on the rise.

According to the CDC, about 700 U.S. women die every year as a result of high-risk pregnancy or delivery complications, while up to 50,000 women nearly die due to severe complications such as heart attacks or hemorrhages during pregnancy or delivery. (That's despite the fact that, according to 2017 research published in The Lancet, the United States spends more money on healthcare than any other country does—around $9,237 a person each year.)

Even scarier: According to the World Health Organization, about half of maternal deaths in the U.S. are preventable, so long as there's increased awareness and pregnant women can get access to quality care." [2017 Women's Health :5 Things You Never Knew About How Dangerous Pregnancy Is In The U.S. Pregnancy-related deaths are on the rise. Here's why.

I have accessed.

Your second paragraph is a red herring. Women die every year. They also can abort now if they wish. Or try to carry the baby to term if they wish. Money spent is not going to stop complications from developing. Complications can arise no matter how much care a person receives.

YOur last paragraph is also misleading. Most of those "maternal deaths" are due to women making poor choices during their pregnancies, thus increasing their risks for harm to them or the baby. to paraphrase you " You cannot make a pregnant woman take care of herself."

But the majority of founders and others believing america was Christian:

Justice J. Story:

Now, there will probably be found few persons in this, or any other Christian country, who would deliberately contend, that it was unreasonable, or unjust to foster and encourage the Christian religion generally, as a matter of sound policy, as well as of revealed truth. In fact, every American colony, from its foundation down to the revolution, with the exception of Rhode Island, (if, indeed, that state be an exception,) did openly, by the whole course of its laws and institutions, support and sustain, in some form, the Christian religion; and almost invariably gave a peculiar sanction to some of its fundamental doctrines. And this has continued to be the case in some of the states down to the present period, without the slightest suspicion, that it was against the principles of public law, or republican liberty. Indeed, in a republic, there would seem to be a peculiar propriety in viewing the Christian religion, as the great basis, on which it must rest for its support and permanence, if it be, what it has ever been deemed by its truest friends to be, the religion of liberty. Montesquieu has remarked, that the Christian religion is a stranger to mere despotic power. The mildness so frequently recommended in the gospel is incompatible with the despotic rage, with which a prince punishes his subjects, and exercises himself in cruelty. . . Massachusetts, . . . has promulgated in her BILL OF RIGHTS the importance and necessity of the public support of religion, and the worship of God . . . The language of that bill of rights is remarkable for its pointed affirmation of the duty of government to support Christianity .

Justice J. McClean:

For many years, my hope for the perpetuity of our institutions has rested upon Bible morality and the general dissemination of Christian principles. This is an element which did not exist in the ancient republics. It is a basis on which free governments may be maintained through all time.

It is a truth experienced in all time, that a free government can have no other than a moral basis; and it requires a high degree of intelligence and virtue in the people to maintain it. Free government is not a self-moving machine. It can only act through agencies. And if its aims be low and selfish, if it addresses itself to the morbid feelings of humanity, its tendencies must be corrupt and weaken the great principles on which it is founded.

Our mission of freedom is not carried out by brute force, by canon [church]law, or any other law except the moral law and those Christian principles which are found in the Scriptures.

Chief Justice E. Warren:

I believe no one can read the history of our country without realizing that the Good Book and the spirit of the Saviour have from the beginning been our guiding geniuses . . . Whether we look to the first Charter of Virginia . . . or to the Charter of New England . . . or to the Charter of Massachusetts Bay . . . or to the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut . . . the same objective is present: a Christian land governed by Christian principles . . .

I believe the entire Bill of Rights came into being because of the knowledge our forefathers had of the Bible and their belief in it: freedom of belief, of expression, of assembly, of petition, the dignity of the individual, the sanctity of the home, equal justice under law, and the reservation of powers to the people . . . I like to believe we are living today in the spirit of the Christian religion. I like also to believe that as long as we do so, no great harm can come to our country.[4]

Justice D.J. Brewer writing the majority opinion of the 1892 trinity case:

If we pass beyond these matters to a view of American life, as expressed by its laws, its business, its customs, and its society, we find everywhere a clear recognition of the same truth. Among other matters, note the following: the form of oath universally prevailing, concluding with an appeal to the Almighty; the custom of opening sessions of all deliberative bodies and most conventions with prayer; the prefatory words of all wills, “In the name of God, amen;” the laws respecting the observance of the Sabbath, with the general cessation of all secular business, and the closing of courts, legislatures, and other similar public assemblies on that day; the churches and church organizations which abound in every city, town, and hamlet; the multitude of charitable organizations existing everywhere under Christian auspices; the gigantic missionary associations, with general support, and aiming to establish Christian missions in every quarter of the globe. These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.
 

WaterSong

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2020
2,245
2,277
113
Kansas City
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
red Herring. they dedicated their endeavor to the glory of god. The fact that they had bad doctrine doesn't change that fact. Caatholica killed protestants, protestants killed catholics. Should we no longer allow bible reading?
Are you going to claim red herring each time you find something you don't like to read?




So wasn't working on sunday. But that has nothing to do with the slaughter of the unborn. Funny, but there is no federal law on teh books allowing abortion. Just actions as a result of a judicial opinion.
Abortion.

Abortion Laws by State 2020

Are you intentionally trying to denigrate the christian faith your avatar says you belong to.
My avatar says Joe Biden will never be president. It says nothing about faith.



true, but that does not mean we strip religion from the public mind. children prayed in schools till the 1960's and the ACLU got Madeline Murray O'hare to go against prayer. McGuffeys Eclectic Primer was a standard reading text and heavily laced with Scripture till the early to mid 20th Century. All the things you say are true, but do not negate the fact that america was founded and governed as a Christian nation. Not a theocracy whixh is a strawman, but a nation heavily influenced by biblical prinicples.
O'Hare isn't the reason prayer was removed from school. She played no role at all.
O'Hare simply took advantage of that myth that helped to further her American Atheists group.

Was Madalyn Murray O'Hair to Blame for Taking Prayer Out of Schools?

And make no mistake, no one is able to remove prayer from school. A prayer led by a principal of a school over the PA system is what was made prohibited. Otherwise, students are fully able to pray at any time in school. And do.


I would take imperfect Christians establishing a government than imperfect secularists establishing a government.
As far as the establishment of America you had both. Our founders were religious however they did not establish a Christian government, nor a theocratic form of governance.
Our Constitution is evidence of this.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship… I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.” Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT




God commanded for mankind the death penalty for murder. But you don't seem to have a problem with teh legal killing of 55,000,000 children versus teh few who have been killed (all of whom were crominals in some fashion) and were innocent. I will take a few killed by mistake over having over 750,000 children a year wiped out.
Will you? Then you're not qualified to say you are pro-life. You're simply pro-forced pregnancy by law. There is a difference.
When you'll take a few murders of adults..... you're not pro-life.

We have a law that says thou shalt not commit murder!, Another thou shalt not steal! those are legislating morality like it or not. And we punish those who violate those morals encoded in law. But I agree no law can make a man moreal internally, nor instill common sense or decency. that takes a regenerated heart!
Believe what you wish. The law speaks for itself.



You overreact. Teh lockdowns are across the spectrum, not just churches. If it was just bible believing churches, then believers would find a way to meet. but it is not, so the statement you made is irrelavent.
No overreaction here. Just keeping to the topic you interjected into our discussion and that is not irrelevant.



spare the theatrics. If the life of the mother is directly threatened by the pregnancy- then yes , she should abort. Better for just one to die instead of both. And talking abu thje past when the gynecological and obstretic practices were far less precise is irrelevant. Countless? I doubt it.
Yes, we're done now. You're escalating in your personal insults and I won't have it. You're unable to keep to a civil discussion and that is your burden.
 

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,762
3,786
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
SCOTUS is no longer a legitimate court. So why will they overturn illegitimate laws?

They still are the final arbiter of what is and is not constitutional, whether one deems them legitimate or not.

A thought as to our earlier discussions about legislating morality. Of ocourse we cannot by laws, change a heart but trying to pass laws that promote a "godly" society is never a bad thing.

Proverbs 14:34
Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

So passing laws that encourage right living (by having laws that define and punish bad behavior) is never a wrong thing to do.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,997
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
They still are the final arbiter of what is and is not constitutional, whether one deems them legitimate or not.
SCOTUS is no longer legitimate, since they have trashed the Constitution with their nonsensical decision. So why would they care about what is constitutional any longer? The rule of law has been banished from America (just like in all the Communist countries).
 
  • Like
Reactions: historyb

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,762
3,786
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
SCOTUS is no longer legitimate, since they have trashed the Constitution with their nonsensical decision. So why would they care about what is constitutional any longer? The rule of law has been banished from America (just like in all the Communist countries).


So what is your solution? anarchy? or try to place originalist judges on the bench like Trump has sought to do. Trumps greatest legacy is not Operation Warp Speed, but that He placed close to 300 federal judges who are originalist or constructionists on federal benches.
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

Yan

Active Member
Jun 15, 2020
410
143
43
City of David
the-land-of-hope.blogspot.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Indonesia
War. They started it
This is the true mission of covid, population control & slavery. Eliminate people who believes in God, keep alive all people who worship Mammon (Matthew 16:25). This world is a fake place where the name of God only used for gaining election (lip service) in politic. They who brings religious view in politic is all a LIAR (they worship God on their mouth while their hearts are away from God), the truth is God doesn't have a place on this earth & on the hearts of men. Those people are people in this verse :
Mark 13:14
“But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Matthew 16:25 (NIV)
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: historyb

Ronald Nolette

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2020
12,762
3,786
113
69
South Carolina
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
War. They started it


Okay Simon Zealotes! But I do not think that is the answer Jesus wishes for his people to do. He told Peter to put away his sword, for those who live by the sword also die by the sword!

I am not looking forward to the next administration on a human level. it is going to mean grave and dangerous changes to teh nation the Lord has placed me as an ambassador in. It can also mean persecutions of believers could (that is a maybe) begin here. No one I know longs for pain or hardship. but our god is still on the throne and we can use this as an opportunity to love the brethren more so that the lost can see we are Jesus' disciples and maybe make some of them hunger for what we have!

If we respond like th eword does when things do not go our way- why should they want Jesus if we act like them and get ornery just like them?