Go, And Sin No More?

[BarneyFife]

My understanding of legalism is this. A person is being "legalistic" when he or she believes that those who keep the rules are better than those who don't. The Lord illustrates this principle with a short story example found in Luke chapter 18 "The Pharisee and the Tax Gatherer." Luke 18:9-14 In this example, not only did these men think of themselves as righteous, they also held other people in contempt. The tax gatherer went home justified because he was willing to humble himself. The legalist says to himself and to God, "I am not like other men", and with this attitude he does not go home justified.

Where in the story is it called legalism? Self-righteousness and condescension are attitudes. Legalism is described by Paul in Galations as believing or living like one can earn the favor or justification of men or God by performing the works of the law. It is a belief system, thus, the -ism. Self-righteousness or hypocrisy are symptoms of legalism--the disease.

 

[BarneyFife]

No. Not really. You see, the woman caught in adultery was/is fully capable of avoiding adultery if she so chooses. She can stop committing adultery all on her own; she doesn't need divine aide. She doesn't even need to be born again. All she needs is the will and desire to stop.

If she doesn't want to stop she won't stop. If she wants to stop she will stop.

That having been said, some of us know from experience that it isn't as simple as all that. To illustrate my point, let's look at an example from scripture.

A young boy was demon possessed and his father asked the disciples to cast it out. The disciples were unable to cast it out when Jesus arrives on the scene.

Luke 9:21-24
And He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood. It has often thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, take pity on us and help us!” And Jesus said to him, “‘If You can?’ All things are possible to him who believes.” Immediately the boy’s father cried out and said, “I do believe; help my unbelief.”

The woman caught in adultery might say something similar, "I do want to stop; help my unwillingness to stop." This is the focus of divine aide. In order for a person to "go and sin no more" that person might need help with regard to the will to do the right thing. It takes moral courage to stop sinning; we have conflicting desires, which the Holy Spirit can help us sort out. Sanctification is not only a renewal of the mind; it is a renewal of the will. God's creative power, as you say it, is focused on the will of an individual. The adulteress can stop committing adultery if she wills it; but she might need help with the willing.

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. (Psalms 51:10)

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (John 15:5)

Even unconverted people cannot overcome sin without Christ. He is the Source of every right impulse.

 

[BarneyFife]

I was quoting from the KJV Bible, translated from the Textus Receptus Greek Text.
Concerning Romans 5:10...."we shall be saved by his life".
I shall refer you to Leviticus 17[11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it [blood] to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls:
for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Jesus is God's Gift to the world, that through faith in His Blood, we may have salvation from eternal death.

Most all modern bible versions of today, including the NIV* and the JW New World Translation, are translated from the Westcott & Hort Greek Text.
Therefore, as there are many words available in a language translation, that do describe/explain a word from another language, not all the selections available will say or infer the truth of God's meaning in context.

As pertaining to the word "atonement", its origin was known of, and used in the Hebrew word for "atonement" in Moses' time.
KJV- Exodus 29:33 (Strongs 3722).
כּפר
kâphar
kaw-far'
A primitive root; to cover (specifically with bitumen); figuratively to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel
KJV Usage: appease, make (an) atonement, cleanse, disannul, forgive, be merciful, pacify, pardon, to pitch, purge (away), put off, (make) reconcile (-liation).

Given the fact that MANY of today's Bible versions are translated from two different Greek Texts, I fully understand why you and many others have problems with interpretation and discernment.


*aka, the Nearly Inspired Version bible.

Sorry. Although it is still my favorite, I graduated from the KJV-only-ism school of ignorance many, many years ago (I've read all the books). I suppose you reckon The King James magically got it right.

Funny you didn't acknowledge that Young's Literal (1862), also translated from Textus Receptus (before there even was a Westcott-Hort text), renders the word "reconciliation" as well.

Interesting also that you swerved right into Hebrew to try to explain a Greek word. I don't have the resources at my fingertips, but I would bet that a direct comparison between the TR and WH would reveal absolutely no difference at all in the usage of Greek in the last word in Romans 5:11. Especially since you didn't offer one.

It might or might not interest you to know that there was a tremendous revival of interest in the ancient Hebrew Sanctuary system in the mid-1800s, again, before there was a WH text.

You still haven't addressed the previous verse.

 

[BarneyFife]

If we've only been forgiven for past sins, then we would have to ask forgiveness for every single sin, every moment of everyday;

Why should our accountability be any different after conversion than before? When you were converted did you confess every single sin you'd ever committed in your life up to that point? If not, how can you be sure your salvation is intact? It's a nice effort of rationalization, but the more we try to excuse sin, the deeper hole we dig. Repentance and confession after initial conversion is necessary regardless of your Soteriology.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (1 John 2:1)

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. (Luke 11:4)​

Do we have a new Lord's Prayer to pray after we are born again? A post-conversion Lord's Prayer?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The unconverted speak to the converted often!
They don't understand Romans 8:8-9.

Well, it's understandable, many believe they are saved by faith plus works. Catholics are half the Christian population and even a portion of Protestant Churches teach legalism. Many struggle with the concept OSAS. I grew in a church that taught once you are born again, you have been saved and eternally secure. Christ accomplished no less, He promised no less. Believe in Me and you will be saved! (Acts 16:31; Romans 19:9; Mark 16:16 and many others claim this)

 

[BarneyFife]

Technically speaking, "reconciliation" and "atonement" are the same thing.

Not according to the Bible.

 

[BarneyFife]

I am sure she never committed adultery again.

How could you possibly know such a thing?

Even under the Law, one could not expect anyone not to sin.

O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! (Deuteronomy 5:29)​

Is God Just a dreamer?

We have a dual nature.

Hellenism?

 

[ReChoired]

legalism
[ lee-guh-liz-uhm ]
noun
strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence, to law or prescription, especially to the letter rather than the spirit.
Theology.

1. the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.
2. the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws.

(initial capital letter) (in Chinese philosophy) the principles and practices of a school of political theorists advocating strict legal control over all activities, a system of rewards and punishments uniform for all classes, and an absolute monarchy.

"Sharia" (Islamic law) is one such example of "lee-guh-liz-uhm". Thus the daily salat, the daily wudu, the greater and lesser pilgrimmages (hajj), &c, and women are required moreso than men to conform, or be lost in the fires of "Jahannam" (Islamic 'hell'). The entire system is one great method, or 'way', of work to "Jannah" (Islamic paradise/heaven). It's entire system is false, and even when it seems to teach 'good' things, when studied, lead away from light/truth.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Why should our accountability be any different after conversion than before? When you were converted did you confess every single sin you'd ever committed in your life up to that point? If not, how can you be sure your salvation is intact? It's a nice effort of rationalization, but the more we try to excuse sin, the deeper hole we dig. Repentance and confession after initial conversion is necessary regardless of your Soteriology.

Interesting that you would claim that. Our accountability befire our salvation was completely absent. After we are saved, we willingly got off our thrones and out Christ up there as Lord and so we were totally accountable. It was and impossible to confess every sin in your life as it would be impossible if you thought you had to. If you don't think you have to, then you are somewhat relaxed, secure ... yes? I am secure, if you are not, that is your problem. We are expected to be obedient, and we practice the Christian way. His yoke is easy. This is my favorite scripture: "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matt. 11:28-30

Do we have a new Lord's Prayer to pray after we are born again? A post-conversion Lord's Prayer?

The Lords Prayer is perfect, but is a template. Prayer is talking to God and if that is all you ever prayed, you haven't communicated with God in any kind if detail. That is a good general prayer, but if you had specific needs and God does already know what they are, you simply ask; opening up with giving thanks and praise and then with supplication for guidance, protection, wisdom, healing, disceernment, strengthened faith, courage, spiritual gifts, hope and a while list if specifics concerning others as well. One of the most important prayers just after I became a believer was to ask for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

Context is crucial in understanding this scripture, you can't just pull out one verse and think it applies to everyone.

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:" 1 John 1:6
>Okay, this referring to an unbeliever who has not the truth, then ...
"7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
>Now it is speaking of believers, then ...

"8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
>Now back to unbelievers. Its a comparison, contrasting believers and unbelievers. Then offers to the unbelievers an opportunity:

"9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
>This verse applies to those not yet cleansed - it has to, Christ cleansed us once and for all time when we recei we Him as Lord and Savior.

"10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
>Here again, the unbeliever who does not have the Word on him.

You need to give Andy a call, come in man.

 

[justbyfaith]

For we are justified when we "turn from our wicked ways"

You know, you come SO CLOSE to getting it right sometimes and then you unleash a Bone Head remark like the above.......
Talk about Christianity 101! jUSTIFICATION by FAITH Is the very ESSENCE of the Entire Bible! NOT “ justification by Turning from our wicked ways.....”

Forgiveness and life are in fact promised to those who "turn from their wicked ways" (Ezekiel 33:19, 2 Chronicles 7:14).

 

[BarneyFife]

Interesting that you would claim that. Our accountability befire our salvation was completely absent. After we are saved, we willingly got off our thrones and out Christ up there as Lord and so we were totally accountable. It was and impossible to confess every sin in your life as it would be impossible if you thought you had to. If you don't think you have to, then you are somewhat relaxed, secure ... yes? I am secure, if you are not, that is your problem. We are expected to be obedient, and we practice the Christian way. His yoke is easy. This is my favorite scripture: "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Matt. 11:28-30


The Lords Prayer is perfect, but is a template. Prayer is talking to God and if that is all you ever prayed, you haven't communicated with God in any kind if detail. That is a good general prayer, but if you had specific needs and God does already know what they are, you simply ask; opening up with giving thanks and praise and then with supplication for guidance, protection, wisdom, healing, disceernment, strengthened faith, courage, spiritual gifts, hope and a while list if specifics concerning others as well. One of the most important prayers just after I became a believer was to ask for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.



Context is crucial in understanding this scripture, you can't just pull out one verse and think it applies to everyone.

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:" 1 John 1:6
>Okay, this referring to an unbeliever who has not the truth, then ...
"7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
>Now it is speaking of believers, then ...

"8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
>Now back to unbelievers. Its a comparison, contrasting believers and unbelievers. Then offers to the unbelievers an opportunity:

"9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
>This verse applies to those not yet cleansed - it has to, Christ cleansed us once and for all time when we recei we Him as Lord and Savior.

"10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
>Here again, the unbeliever who does not have the Word on him.

You need to give Andy a call, come in man.

Andy and I are inseparable. Your contrived Systematic Theology is flawed.

 

[Earburner]

Funny you didn't acknowledge that Young's Literal (1862), also translated from Textus Receptus (before there even was a Westcott-Hort text), renders the word "reconciliation" as well.

I didn't need to. I have a Youngs Analytical Concordance. If you will notice, I agreed with you. My only reference of importance for the moment, was to show the word "atonement" in the Hebrew, and that it goes back to Moses. So my thinking is for continuity.
If it was used then with Moses, and it is used in the Epistles, why must it be changed now? This is the diabolical problem of all the newer bibles of today. They are continually making word changes, and thus becoming a manifestation of "the author of confusion".

 

[BarneyFife]

I didn't need to. I have a Youngs Analytical Concordance. If you will notice, I agreed with you. My only reference of importance for the moment, was to show the word "atonement" in the Hebrew, and that it goes back to Moses. So my thinking is for continuity.
If it was used then with Moses, and it is used in the Epistles, why must it be changed now? This is the diabolical problem of all the newer bibles of today. They are continually making word changes, and thus becoming a manifestation of "the author of confusion".

You're free to rationalize your views any way you like.

 

[ReChoired]

If we are speaking about legalism within the confines of the religion found in scripture, Jesus said:

Mat_5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.​

Now, in this saying, Jesus didn't say that the Pharisees were doing right, but used their own definition of "righteousness" in contrast (that which was "of the scribes and Pharisees"). In other words, He said that the true righteousness was superior to theirs, as God's righteousness was to man's. They needed God's provided righteousness and not their own.

Thus their "righteousness" was not better than open sin (transgression of the law), for their own "righteousness" was also transgression of the Law (God's righteousness). It was just that theirs was covert sin. It outwardly looked good, but inward was full of dead men's bones - unclean.

 

[justbyfaith]

Of course, God's righteousness in us (Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6) is a practical righteousness on the same level as the righteousness of Christ (1 John 3:7).

And yes, Jesus' righteousness is greater than that of the scribes and Pharisees.

If we let Jesus live His life in us and through us, the life that is lived by these vessels will be one of perfect righteousness; for as long as we don't take our lives back and try to live them ourselves.

As long as Jesus is living in us and through us, the life that is lived through these vessels will be a holy life free from the committing of sins;

Where sin is defined not as violating some standard of the law but as walking after the flesh rather than the Spirit.

Romans 7:6 is my basis for saying so. If anyone is interested, I can probably expound further on this principle of holy scripture upon asking.

 

[ReChoired]

Where sin is defined not as violating some standard of the law but as walking after the flesh rather than the Spirit.

You misunderstood. The Law didn't die in Romans 7. The old man of sin did.

 

[justbyfaith]

You misunderstood. The Law didn't die in Romans 7. The old man of sin did.

Both the old man of sin, and the law, died in Romans 7.

We died to the law.

 

[justbyfaith]

The works of the flesh, mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21, are all things that if you walk in them you would be violating some law.

And the fruit of the Spirit, mentioned in Galatians 5:22-23, if you walk in them, there is no law that you will truly violate in your behaviour.

You may do something like medical work on the day that God said you are supposed to rest...

But such a thing would actually be in obedience to other aspects of the law...Jesus said that it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days...and I believe that the command to "love thy neighbor as thyself" would definitely be in operation in such a case.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not according to the Bible.

How are they different, according to the Bible?

 

[justbyfaith]

You misunderstood. The Law didn't die in Romans 7. The old man of sin did.

Do you wear tzitzit and tallit and tefilin? Do you blow the trumpet (chofar) every new moon?

If you don't, then you are in violation of the letter of the law.

Romans 7:6 tells us that we are delivered from the law in order that we might begin to walk in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

It means that we are no longer bound by the letter of the law but that we are now governed by the law of faith; or, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. This law is the principle that the love of the Lord is shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Ghost (Romans 5:5) and this love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, Galatians 5:14, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6, Romans 8:4).

So now, if we walk in the Spirit, we are not under the law (of Moses) (Galatians 5:18).