One taken to heaven and the other left to face the Tribulation...

[Truther]

They were asking about *both* the destruction of the temple and the 2nd Coming--not just about the destruction of the temple only! You need to correct this if you're going to make any arguments following.



This is a declarative statement, and not an argument. Are we to believe these are "general signs of the 2nd Coming" simply because you interpret it as such, or is this actually being said?

In my view, Jesus was dealing with their focus upon the destruction of the temple, which was his initial statement and the major concern of his disciples. They couldn't understand how Israel could achieve final salvation, as promised in the Prophets, if Israel was to be destroyed yet again?

So Jesus explained that indeed Israel was to be destroyed again, and yet still saved after another long period of tribulation for the nation. The sign of this impending destruction was the gathering of a Roman Army like eagles to its prey.

Israel's sins would be exposed by their persecution of Jesus' followers. Their hatred would become apparent. And God's judgment would be seen to be approaching.

These were the initial signs--the "birth pains"--of this coming destruction in 70 AD. Jesus' Disciples were to be looking for it, because *this judgment was not for them!* They could escape when the time came, assuming they were spiritually prepared, and listening to the word of God to their hearts.



Yes, Jesus was asked about the problem of conflating the Salvation of Israel with his declaration that Israel would be judged once again. And so, Jesus separated these two events, by a long duration called the "great tribulation."

It was to begin in their generation (70 AD) and continue all through the age, as long as the Gentiles were given to oppress them. But one day Christ would return to save the Jewish nation, and all Gentile oppression of that nation would be ended.

There was, however, a correlation that Jesus drew between his 2nd Coming and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. In both instances Jesus showed that he was coming to bring salvation to the repentant and destruction to the rebellious.

In 70 AD Jesus brought the judgment he had prepared for by his 1st Coming--those who refused to repent in Israel were destroyed in 70 AD. In the same way, his 2nd Coming will bring salvation to those who have repented, and judgment to those who don't.

The 2nd Coming will finalize both salvation and judgment on earth, much as he did at his 1st Coming. Only at his 1st Coming Jesus initiated this process with Israel, and began to expand the same process with all nations on earth. The 2nd Coming will bring an end to this process of dealing with rebellion in the world against Christ's Kingdom. All nations, including Israel, would be judged at the 2nd Coming.

Have you noticed I explained the chapter with about 6 sentences and you use paragraphs?

This is a salesman speaking, Randy.

 

[Truther]

The rapture was of those that died under the age of Law.

We now live in the age of Grace. When this body dies we go right on to be with God.

We don't get new bodies when we die.

We are spirits made perfect per Hebrews 12 until then.

 

[n2thelight]

Did you know that the rapture verse Paul was speaking of in 1 Thes 4 was actually a quote of Jesus' words in Matt 24 (one taken the other left)?

The one's taken are taken by satan ,out of season ,whom become whores ,the virgins wait on Christ's return to this earth, when His feet shall touch the Mount of Olives ,

Only a Christian can be deceived, the rest already are. We (Christians)are told to hang out till the end, and I promise you the end ain't no rapture

 

[n2thelight]

We don't get new bodies when we die.

We are spirits made perfect per Hebrews 12 until then.

Thank you, as Paul said it so clear ,we have a flesh body that our true person(spirit)lives inside at death the flesh is no more ,at the 2nd death if not in Christ your spirit will be no more!!!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Have you noticed I explained the chapter with about 6 sentences and you use paragraphs?

This is a salesman speaking, Randy.

I'm not a salesman, brother. If paragraphs bother you, it seems you don't like the message. The format is incidental.

 

[Truther]

The one's taken are taken by satan ,out of season ,whom become whores ,the virgins wait on Christ's return to this earth, when His feet shall touch the Mount of Olives ,

Only a Christian can be deceived, the rest already are. We (Christians)are told to hang out till the end, and I promise you the end ain't no rapture

You just debunked Jesus and Paul.

 

[Truther]

Thank you, as Paul said it so clear ,we have a flesh body that our true person(spirit)lives inside at death the flesh is no more ,at the 2nd death if not in Christ your spirit will be no more!!!

Whether we are alive or already dead at the rapture, we will automatically get new bodies when being caught up together. We need our new bodies to return with Jesus per Rev 19 and reign with him on earth.
God will not pre-kill us to give us our new bodies.

 

[Truther]

I'm not a salesman, brother. If paragraphs bother you, it seems you don't like the message. The format is incidental.

Just go back and look how I presented it, compared to your explanation.

I just guided to passage and you overhauled it.

Now, would you like to see how I also do that with Matt 24?

 

[Truther]

Matthew 24
King James Version (KJV)
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?...3 QUESTIONS HERE



4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
This is the worldwide, end of age part.





9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. This is the dispersion of Jews(also Christians) part. ad70 on...



11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. This is a warning to end time Israel, before the Tribulation.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This is during the tribulation and its ending.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. This is a warning to be watching, particularly Israel and the saints of God in the last days of the Last days events to precede the rapture and tribulation.





NOW HERE IS HIS DISCOURSE OF THE RAPTURE...
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



That is how ALL 3 questions are answered by the Lord.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Just go back and look how I presented it, compared to your explanation.

I just guided to passage and you overhauled it.

Now, would you like to see how I also do that with Matt 24?

Again, format is incidental to the points we're making. How we design and craft our responses is personal, and my business--not yours. You argue against things that are away from the subject. Are you trying to avoid the arguments? I thought you were skilled at this? I thought you were downright "dangerous" to those who opposed your view?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Now, would you like to see how I also do that with Matt 24?

What you're doing is ignoring the points I've been making in order to espouse your own position. That's what you're doing now. One at a time, you're treating different passages, and *completely ignoring* the differences that we're arguing over! Brother, I memorized Matt 24 back in the 1970s! I don't need you to tell me what's in it. It's been a very confusing passage for me for many years. But God has helped me to finally work it out for the most part. At least, I think I have it right now.

This isn't a contest about who can beat each other up more. Rather, we're seeking the same God and the same truth. If I can serve to help you see things better, as God has helped me, I'd love to do that. But if you think of this as a contest, then we're wasting time.

 

[Truther]

Again, format is incidental to the points we're making. How we design and craft our responses is personal, and my business--not yours. You argue against things that are away from the subject. Are you trying to avoid the arguments? I thought you were skilled at this? I thought you were downright "dangerous" to those who opposed your view?

This skill is not how much we use to explain it, but how little.

Our job is to help the reader make sense of the verse on their own, without bombing them with 70ad, 70, ad,70ad...

Our job is to let the reader know they will be included in this, as much as the 1st century church was.

Our job is to let the modern saint know THEY have to "look up, for your redemption draweth near"...

 

[Truther]

What you're doing is ignoring the points I've been making in order to espouse your own position. That's what you're doing now. One at a time, you're treating different passages, and *completely ignoring* the differences that we're arguing over! Brother, I memorized Matt 24 back in the 1970s! I don't need you to tell me what's in it. It's been a very confusing passage for me for many years. But God has helped me to finally work it out for the most part. At least, I think I have it right now.

This isn't a contest about who can beat each other up more. Rather, we're seeking the same God and the same truth. If I can serve to help you see things better, as God has helped me, I'd love to do that. But if you think of this as a contest, then we're wasting time.

You see what I did with Matt 24.

Now, post Matt 24 and narrate it like I did, and we can compare the 2 ideas.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Matthew 24
...3 QUESTIONS HERE

So tell me something less obvious! What's your point?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
This is the worldwide, end of age part.

These are signs *in Jesus' generation* that the fall of Jerusalem was about to take place. That is said in verse 1-2:

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

I've already said that Jesus addressed not just one, but two, matters--the 2nd Coming and the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. So obviously, some of the signs Jesus' disciples saw, and some of the things that generation would see, would include a continuing time of "great distress" upon Israel, as they are taken captive into all nations. Jesus, in Luke 21, indicated this Great Tribulation would continue for the Jews until the end of the age.

Luke 21.23 There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

But these initial "birth pains" all took place in Jesus' generation, just as he said. There were wars taking place in that time, including military maneuvers and battles engaged in by the Romans. They were signs of an imposing, imminent threat to Israel, who was, according to Jesus, under judgment. These Roman maneuvers were "clouds on the horizon," warning the Jews to repent before it's too late.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. This is the dispersion of Jews part. ad70

Actually, this took place in Jesus' generation, and happened to his disciples at that time. Obviously, it continues with Christians in other nations, after the Gospel had brought salvation to other parts of the world.

Nations would be converted, and yet, detractors from the faith would begin an uprising against those who held to that faith. What happened to Israel's Christians in the 1st generation became a pattern for future generations in other nations, which would become Christian nations. Those nations would aposticize, and begin to persecute the Christians in their countries. This is happening today.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. This is a warning to end time Israel, before the Tribulation.

No, as I said, this happened in 70 AD, in accordance with Daniel's prophecy in 9.26-27. This is also how the Church Fathers interpreted it. Futurists want as much Bible Prophecy to be about the endtimes as possible, because they tend towards sensationalism.

Indeed, some prophecy is very much Futurist. However, this prophecy of the Abomination of Desolation was placed in the time of Messiah's 1st Coming. That's what we see in Dan 9.26-27, and that's how Jesus depicts it here, as something his own disciples were to look out for in their own generation. This was an imminent judgment coming upon the nation Israel, which had apostacized from their mission.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
This is during the tribulation and its ending.

The Olivet Discourse nowhere identifies the "Great Tribulation" as the endtimes, or at the end of the age. On the contrary, every synoptic version identifies it as an age-long punishment of the Jewish People that only *began* in 70 AD.

Obviously, some of this has to do with the endtime, specifically the part about the Coming of the Son of Man. This originates from Dan 7, where the Son of Man descends from heaven, with divine authorization, to establish God's Kingdom on the earth.

But Jesus is warning his own generation about this because in the same way the Kingdom comes in judgment it is also to come suddenly upon unsuspecting, unrepentant Jews. This happened in 70 AD, and this is explicitly what Jesus was warning about.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. This is a warning to be watching, particularly Israel and the saints of God in the last days of the Last days events to precede the rapture and tribulation.

I've already addressed this, and you obviously have chosen to present your view without any interest in addressing our differences. You hardly present the issues to be resolved, because you're only presenting your own views, without addressing my stated concerns about this.

Jesus came to bring "Spring time" to the Jewish People. He was their Messiah. But the "fig tree" failed to bear fruit, for which God decided to judge the nation.

He destroyed it in 70 AD, and Jesus was explicitly warning about this. He was speaking of the present generation, which is precisely what Jesus said here--in "this generation."

NOW HERE IS HIS DISCOURSE OF THE RAPTURE...
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

The principle of sudden, comprehensive judgment, such as happened in the Flood of Noah and in the destruction of Sodom, present the matter of human preparation for God's judgment in all times, and not just at the 2nd Coming. Jesus told his followers to be prepared *now,* and not just in the last days!

Jesus' generation was to be on guard against God's judgment against Israel in their own generation, with all of the wickedness that was around them. So also will it be in the last days, when Jesus comes back to destroy the wicked on earth who seek to restrain and oppose the Kingdom of God.

Jesus was speaking of his 2nd Coming as a warning *to his own generation,* as well as to future generations. He specifically indicated he had no interest in dating prophecies or in crystal ball reading. What was coming at the 2nd Coming was applicable to his own day, because God's judgment always hangs over the wicked. We have to be aware of this in our own time, which is the whole point of the prophecy.

That is how ALL 3 questions are answered by the Lord.

Jesus was asked when the destruction of the temple would take place. It would take place in "this generation," ie in 70 AD.
He was asked when his coming would take place. It would not be something anybody could prepare for except through repentance. The wicked will not see or believe.

If all you want to do to present your beliefs, without addressing my counter-arguments, then I'm not interested. It's a sermon, and not a discussion.

 

[Truther]

So tell me something less obvious! What's your point?



These are signs *in Jesus' generation* that the fall of Jerusalem was about to take place. That is said in verse 1-2:

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

I've already said that Jesus addressed not just one, but two, matters--the 2nd Coming and the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. So obviously, some of the signs Jesus' disciples saw, and some of the things that generation would see, would include a continuing time of "great distress" upon Israel, as they are taken captive into all nations. Jesus, in Luke 21, indicated this Great Tribulation would continue for the Jews until the end of the age.

Luke 21.23 There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

But these initial "birth pains" all took place in Jesus' generations, just as he said. There were wars taking place in that time, including military maneuvers and battles engaged in by the Romans. They were signs of an imposing, imminent threat to Israel, who was, according to Jesus, under judgment. These Roman maneuvers were "clouds on the horizon," warning the Jews to repent before it's too late.



Actually, this took place in Jesus' generation, and happened to his disciples at that time. Obviously, it continues with Christians in other nations, after the Gospel had brought salvation to other parts of the world.

Nations would be converted, and yet, detractors from the faith would begin an uprising against those who held to that faith. What happened to Israel's Christians in the 1st generation became a pattern for future generations in other nations, which would become Christian nations. Those nations would aposticize, and begin to persecute the Christians in their countries. This is happening today.



No, as I said, this happened in 70 AD, in accordance with Daniel's prophecy in 9.26-27. This is also how the Church Fathers interpreted it. Futurists want as much Bible Prophecy to be about the endtimes as possible, because they tend towards sensationalism.

Indeed, some prophecy is very much Futurist. However, this prophecy of the Abomination of Desolation was placed in the time of Messiah's 1st Coming. That's what we see in Dan 9.26-27, and that's how Jesus depicts it here, as something his own disciples were to look out for in their own generation. This was an imminent judgment coming upon the nation Israel, which had apostacized from their mission.



The Olivet Discourse nowhere identifies the "Great Tribulation" as the endtimes, or at the end of the age. On the contrary, every synoptic version identifies it as an age-long punishment of the Jewish People that only *began* in 70 AD.

Obviously, some of this has to do with the endtime, specifically the part about the Coming of the Son of Man. This originates from Dan 7, where the Son of Man descends from heaven, with divine authorization, to establish God's Kingdom on the earth.

But Jesus is warning his own generation about this because in the same way the Kingdom comes in judgment it is also to come suddenly upon unsuspecting, unrepentant Jews. This happened in 70 AD, and this is explicitly what Jesus was warning about.



I've already addressed this, and you obviously have chosen to present your view without any interest in addressing our differences. You hardly present the issues to be resolved, because you're only presenting your own views, without addressing my stated concerns about this.

Jesus came to bring "Spring time" to the Jewish People. He was their Messiah. But the "fig tree" failed to bear fruit, for which God decided to judge the nation.

He destroyed it in 70 AD, and Jesus was explicitly warning about this. He was speaking of the present generation, which is precisely what Jesus said here--in "this generation."



The principle of sudden, comprehensive judgment, such as happened in the Flood of Noah and in the destruction of Sodom, present the matter of human preparation for God's judgment in all times, and not just at the 2nd Coming. Jesus told his followers to be prepared *now,* and not just in the last days!

Jesus' generation was to be on guard against God's judgment against Israel in their own generation, with all of the wickedness that was around them. So also will it be in the last days, when Jesus comes back to destroy the wicked on earth who seek to restrain and oppose the Kingdom of God.

Jesus was speaking of his 2nd Coming as a warning *to his own generation,* as well as to future generations. He specifically indicated he had no interest in dating prophecies or in crystal ball reading. What was coming at the 2nd Coming was applicable to his own day, because God's judgment always hangs over the wicked. We have to be aware of this in our own time, which is the whole point of the prophecy.



Jesus was asked when the destruction of the temple would take place. It would take place in "this generation," ie in 70 AD.
He was asked when his coming would take place. It would not be something anybody could prepare for except through repentance. The wicked will not see or believe.

If all you want to do to present your beliefs, without addressing my counter-arguments, then I'm not interested. It's a sermon, and not a discussion.

I think that you see the entire chapter as only 1st century speak.

So, let's take it one step at a time.

When did this happen in history?...

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[Davy]

You just debunked Jesus and Paul.

Actually, he did not debunk Lord Jesus nor Apostle Paul. He's simply saying the Left-Behind theory that Christ's Church is raptured prior to the tribulation while everyone else is left-behind is just an idea from men's doctrines. It is not written in God's Word.

Pre-trib's, and your interpretation of the end of Luke 17 is false. The first one taken is taken as a dead corpse to where the fowls will be gathered together. What do fowls do with a dead corpse? Lord Jesus' answer to His disciples there is simple and direct, His using a natural event in nature as a metaphor for a false gathering.

Tim LaHaye's "Left-Behind" series of books and movies are a complete hoax and a joke, even robbery of Christian brethren who spends their money to buy such devilish trash.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This skill is not how much we use to explain it, but how little.

Our job is to help the reader make sense of the verse on their own, without bombing them with 70ad, 70, ad,70ad...

Our job is to let the reader know they will be included in this, as much as the 1st century church was.

Our job is to let the modern saint know THEY have to "look up, for your redemption draweth near"...

You're only speaking for yourself. If we're debating the issue, you sure have a strange way of doing this?

Nothing personal, brother, but you're simply not dealing with this as if in a respectful debate. You're just using this as a platform to espouse your own views, degrading any opposition to your own opinions.

Let me know if you really want to discuss the issues. Otherwise, you're just using me to puff up your own views.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I think that you see the entire chapter as only 1st century speak.
So, let's take it one step at a time.
When did this happen in history?...
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Again, Jesus was addressing 2 questions, and not just 1 question. He was addressing the question of *when* the temple would fall and when he would come again? His answer, as I told you, was that the temple would fall *in this generation,* ie in the then-present generation, the generation of his present disciples. That much is clear enough.

But Jesus was also asked when he was coming to restore Israel, because his claim that Jerusalem would be destroyed seemed to run counter to that promise. And so, Jesus explained that wickedness in Israel, presently, prevented the Kingdom from coming to Israel. There would be an age-long process of punishment towards the Jewish People, while his true disciples would be persecuted by the rebellious in Israel and by the wicked in other nations. This would be an *age-long* process.

Hopefully you can see now that I'm *not* saying this was *only* for Jesus' generation? But it was primarily for that generation, which serves also as an example for Christians in all generations, who go through the same ordeals. That also should be clear to you how I stand on this. If you continue to misrepresent what I believe, I'll have to assume you just don't want to discuss this in a respectable way. Whether or not you agree with me, this is what *I believe!*

The "Great Tribulation" began in 70 AD and *continues* throughout the NT age. Jesus said it would only be cut short at the end of the age, when the Gentiles were finally judged for the way they've treated Israel, when the nations are judged for their opposition to the Kingdom of God and for their wickedness.

Some believe that the Tribulation was only the 70 AD event itself, which was somehow "cut short" so that the invasion ended. But that isn't the real story. The persecution of the Jews never ended there, nor did God end their punishment there. The Jews have remained in exile ever since that time--surely you've heard of the Jewish Diaspora? Even though the nation Israel has been restored, the Jewish Diaspora still continues, and will continue until Christ returns. That's when their Tribulation will be "cut short."

By being "cut short" the expression did not mean to say that the history itself would be short, but that the tragedy would be "cut short" before Israel is completely exterminated. The term's insinuation is that in time there would be an extreme danger of complete extermination of the Jewish People. This attempt at genocide of the Jewish People will be "cut short," before it achieves its objective.

I hope this helps you understand where I stand. You don't have to agree with it. I'm just asking that you *understand* it?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Actually, he did not debunk Lord Jesus nor Apostle Paul. He's simply saying the Left-Behind theory that Christ's Church is raptured prior to the tribulation while everyone else is left-behind is just an idea from men's doctrines. It is not written in God's Word.

Pre-trib's, and your interpretation of the end of Luke 17 is false. The first one taken is taken as a dead corpse to where the fowls will be gathered together. What do fowls do with a dead corpse? Lord Jesus' answer to His disciples there is simple and direct, His using a natural event in nature as a metaphor for a false gathering.

Tim LaHaye's "Left-Behind" series of books and movies are a complete hoax and a joke, even robbery of Christian brethren who spends their money to buy such devilish trash.

I won't go so far as to say LaHaye and others like him are "evil." But yes, I do believe their material is inspired by the wrong spirit, by evil, deceiving spirits. Deceiving the Church with unbiblical deceptions is never a godly thing. You think?

 

[Truther]

Actually, he did not debunk Lord Jesus nor Apostle Paul. He's simply saying the Left-Behind theory that Christ's Church is raptured prior to the tribulation while everyone else is left-behind is just an idea from men's doctrines. It is not written in God's Word.

Pre-trib's, and your interpretation of the end of Luke 17 is false. The first one taken is taken as a dead corpse to where the fowls will be gathered together. What do fowls do with a dead corpse? Lord Jesus' answer to His disciples there is simple and direct, His using a natural event in nature as a metaphor for a false gathering.

Tim LaHaye's "Left-Behind" series of books and movies are a complete hoax and a joke, even robbery of Christian brethren who spends their money to buy such devilish trash.

So, Jesus will kill you to remake you if He returns today and you are alive?

What method will he use to kill you and your loved ones?