One taken to heaven and the other left to face the Tribulation...

[Davy]

Jesus points out that is the reason the angels are here. Paul says the church will leave respectfully. The sheep being separated from the goats, and the harvest of the wheat, involves Angels, and slightly more hands on and physical. That is why no one "sees" the Second Coming correctly. They do not see how Jesus' teachings fit into Revelation. At the Second Coming Jesus, the 144k, and the angels are going over the whole earth gathering the sheep and the wheat as Jesus taught. This is not a battle scene. This is going on during the Trumpets and Thunders. It will take months, even years. Satan nor the FP have even begun. The first thing Satan is allowed is not until the 5th Trumpet. He is allowed to release his own angels from the pit, they have been bound in for thousands of years. The FP is not even revealed until the 7th Trumpet when Satan's angels are once again defeated and once again cast out of heaven.

The Second Coming is not at the end. The Second Coming and rapture happen before the 7th Seal. Then the Trumpets start.

Many Christian brethren, I will even say the MAJORITY of Christian brethren, DO... 'see' the second coming of Christ correctly.

It's easy to understand per God's Word too, because it is written often about in God's Holy Writ. Jesus even gave the event clearly Himself in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 which parallels 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, and even greater detail of it is given in Zechariah 14 and Acts 1 on the 'how'.

The problem with those who can't or won't understand those above Scriptures is because of being brainwashed by the leaven doctrines of men, something Lord Jesus warned His disciples about.

There are many so-called-churches out there which are not real churches at all; they are what was called in the Old Testament 'beth-avens', which means 'houses of vanity'. That is where the false prophets that taught against God's Word dwelt and had their followings.

 

[Davy]

Brethren, don't be deceived by the charlatans who try to claim men's doctrines like the Pre-trib Rapture theory is the most popular idea about the event of Christ's coming. It is not! Compared to the number Christians in the world, the Pre-trib Rapture belief is way down... on the list.

The majority of Christians believe in a Post-tribulational coming of Christ Jesus to gather His Church!

With forums like these, anyone can come here espousing falsehoods and trying to pump up a false belief and yes, even false statistics like a theory is believed by the majority when it is not. They are only trying to use the 'Popularity' trick to get you to believe there's some substance behind the belief when there is not.

 

[Truther]

You claimed to be adept at arguing with your detractors. You haven't shown that ability at all. Line by line commentary is not a discussion--it is just promoting your own views. Enjoy your own commentary, but don't claim to be able to disprove my position--you aren't showing that.

Arguing what happened in history is simply a matter of referring to the records of what happened. We know the 70 AD event happened. We know the Jews went into exile at that time, and following, and that the Jewish Diaspora still continues to the present day.

The history is not in question. What is in question is your failure to interpret the words that specifically address these things. Having quoted what Jesus said in this regard I've successfully shown you the proper interpretation, that Jesus referred to the fall of the temple in his own generation, with an accompanying Jewish punishment that would last all age long.

Luke 21.
5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”...
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”...
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


Until when?

Right, now look what happens after Jerusalem is re-ruled by the Jews after the fulfillment of the times of the gentiles...



25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


.....which(great tribulation and 2nd coming) has not happened yet.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I like to keep it more simple. Those like Time LaHaye and Hal Lindsey are simply deceived by following men's doctrines instead of trusting in God's written Word. But the 'originators' of the Pre-trib Rapture theory are the actual devils.

If you mean devils inspired this doctrine, I agree. All opposition to God's word comes by demons. But people can be deceived, and this doesn't make them devils. Some are, and some aren't--it depends on their attitude.

Do they rebel against God's word the same way the devils do? Only God knows, unless God gives us a clear picture of who these people are.

I don't believe John N. Darby was an "evil man." I don't believe he was a "devil." He was apparently a very godly, dedicated man of God, who was imperfect as we all are. But his beliefs in this area should be exposed, and for that I'm grateful for your willingness to be counted on the issue.

 

[Truther]

We see absolutely *no reference* to a 7 year period in the book of Revelation! Some try to tie 2 periods of 3.5 years together to create a 7 year period, but there is no reference at all to a "7 year period!" If your argument is based on this deception, then your whole claim falls apart. There is no 7 year period, and thus your argument has no basis.

There is reference to a 70th Week in Dan 9, but it is never said to be a full Week, and it took place at Jesus' 1st Coming. He was to be "cut off" in the "midst of the Week." That is, the full Week was never completed.

The 70th Week of Dan 9 bears no relationship to the Reign of Antichrist at the end of history. According to Dan 7, the Reign of Antichrist will last 3.5 years. And then, it seems the world turns against him, and gathers to Armageddon. How long it takes for the Kings of the East to gather to Armageddon we are not told. But we are assured that Antichrist's unbridled and unrivaled power only lasts 1260 days. Beyond that his power will be challenged.



Yes, Jesus said he would not allow Jewish extermination, or a complete genocide of the Jewish People. All through history people of this world have tried to destroy the Jewish People. Since the Jews were called to be God's People, the ungodly world has tried to unseat the place of the Jews in history. They also hate the Christians, and would exterminate us, as well.



I don't just think it--I know it! I know it not because I think it but rather, because Jesus *said it!* I quoted it for you from Luke 21--why don't you believe Jesus, as opposed to your favorite theologians?



When Jesus comes back.

I have an awesome life. I would say the Great Tribulation is GREAT!

Wow, I thought it would look like this....


6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[Truther]

Luke 17:33
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
KJV

Oh, I forgot, Jesus gave the above verse in the following context...

Luke 17:33-37
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV

You aren't answering me.

No, how is Jesus going to kill you and your loved ones at his return if he returns today?

 

[Truther]

Jesus points out that is the reason the angels are here. Paul says the church will leave respectfully. The sheep being separated from the goats, and the harvest of the wheat, involves Angels, and slightly more hands on and physical. That is why no one "sees" the Second Coming correctly. They do not see how Jesus' teachings fit into Revelation. At the Second Coming Jesus, the 144k, and the angels are going over the whole earth gathering the sheep and the wheat as Jesus taught. This is not a battle scene. This is going on during the Trumpets and Thunders. It will take months, even years. Satan nor the FP have even begun. The first thing Satan is allowed is not until the 5th Trumpet. He is allowed to release his own angels from the pit, they have been bound in for thousands of years. The FP is not even revealed until the 7th Trumpet when Satan's angels are once again defeated and once again cast out of heaven.

The Second Coming is not at the end. The Second Coming and rapture happen before the 7th Seal. Then the Trumpets start.

So, Jesus will kill you to remake you if He returns today and you are alive?

What method will he use to kill you and your loved ones?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I have an awesome life. I would say the Great Tribulation is GREAT!

Wow, I thought it would look like this....


6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see....

No, sorry--you have it wrong. Many Christians have it wrong. They think the whole book of Revelation is the "Great Tribulation." That is a gross over-simplification. The book is very much focused on the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist. But that does not mean the whole book is just about that, nor does it mean that the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist is actually called the "Great Tribulation."

I showed you what Jesus identified as the "Great Tribulation," or "Great Distress." It is the historical punishment of the Jewish People, beginning in 70 AD and ending at the return of Christ. Why you cannot acknowledge what *Jesus taught* is beyond me, if you call yourself a Christian?

Don't get me wrong--I'm not questioning your Christianity. I'm just saying that being a Christian we tend to value what Jesus explicitly taught. And you're not acknowledging what he taught in regard to the "Great Tribulation."

 

[Randy Kluth]

...Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Until when?

Right, now look what happens after Jerusalem is re-ruled by the Jews after the fulfillment of the times of the gentiles...

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

.....which(great tribulation and 2nd coming) has not happened yet.

You are completely ignoring what Jesus said, which I just quoted. Jesus identified the "Great Tribulation," or the "Great Distress," as the punishment of the Jews afflicted on them, beginning in 70 AD.

This is how Jesus identified it, and how you should identify it. You should conform your opinions to Jesus' words, brother. I could care less how we might want to arrange his words to fit our theology--it isn't what we want to believe or defend, but what Jesus explicitly says.

You seem to have a strange order for these events. You have a sequence in which a "great tribulation" follows the "fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles." That is impossible, because the "fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles" *follows* the Great Tribulation of the Jewish People in NT history.

The "fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles" is, for Jesus, the end of the age and the completion of God's promise to finally deliver Israel for all time. I call this the "Jewish Hope." It is all through the OT Prophets! The Jewish punishment in history must, therefore, precede it!

 

[Timtofly]

If you are waiting for a rapture, then you are going to be raptured by someone other than Jesus Christ for He is coming to earth to set up His kingdom here. The seventh trump is the exact time when the change takes place, and at no other place.

This is not what Paul nor Jesus describes. John also adds 42 months for Satan and tells us at what point the 1000 year rule starts.

God on the throne and the Lamb appear in the 6th Seal. This is the rapture and the start of the final harvest. Physical death here is just the doorway the soul moves from a tent to a final permanent incorruptible body. It is not spiritual. It is equally physical and spiritual. Paradise is a created place with physical bodies, not from biological Adam, but physical bodies direct from God. Paul is not creating a whole special paradigm of some ghost flesh. He is describing Adam's original created body, before Adam disobeyed. Adam's body was from God and physical. That is the difference, not just being spiritual, but being complete.

The church is changed at the start of this harvest, and do go up to Paradise. That is what Paul claims. Being caught up to Paradise. The church is not going to be harvested one by one like the sheep and the wheat by the angels. The church is described as one body, not individual citizens of an earthly nation. Only in Paradise is the church individual citizens of God. The church is brought together from Paradise and those alive on earth and presented to God as one completed body at the Second Coming. This is prior to the Lamb Himself harvesting the sheep and wheat. The reason being, is that God is removing the sheep and wheat from their physical bodies in preparation for His 1000 year reign on earth. The church is not going to rule ON earth. Paradise will be rule OVER the earth. Two very distinct and different reigns.

The earth is still a physical Kingdom for 1000 years, because John shows us in Revelation 20:4 a bodily resurrection before thrones (the church over the earth), and these from the final harvest will rule on earth from Jerusalem. In fact the sheep and wheat will rebuild the nations on earth for 1000 years. These will go on into the NHNE as well.

That is why no one can get the rapture and Second Coming figured out. They are fixed on the wrong coming at the battle of Armageddon. Christ at Armageddon is going to burn up and destroy the last of Adam's flesh. This is after the harvest, not the harvest. This is the end of the 7th Trumpet not the start of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet started before Satan's 42 months started. Not even the 144k are going to be here during Satan’s 42 months. The church still has authority over the earth, but Satan is given 42 months of direct authority on the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

The 70th Week of Dan 9 bears no relationship to the Reign of Antichrist at the end of history. According to Dan 7, the Reign of Antichrist will last 3.5 years. And then, it seems the world turns against him, and gathers to Armageddon. How long it takes for the Kings of the East to gather to Armageddon we are not told. But we are assured that Antichrist's unbridled and unrivaled power only lasts 1260 days. Beyond that his power will be challenged.

I agree there is no 7 years, but also there is no "reign of antichrist" either.

Satan is given 42 months, and that is not even a complete 3.5 years, depending on days in a month. That is considered the greater tribulation, because Satan will either be the best friend or the worst enemy to those on the earth. Satan does not kill those who refuse the mark, just makes life miserable. Revelation 13, says he can only kill those who refuse to worship him or the FP. Now it happens that those who refuse the mark more than likely refuse to worship as well. There may be some who compromise and take the mark, but still refuse to worship. Those individuals will be killed by Satan and still go to the Lake of Fire. Worshipping Satan comes first, even before the image and mark are introduced.

There is no antichrist "lead up" to the Second Coming. The Second Coming happens and judgments from God. Satan is the lawless one in 2 Thessalonians 2, not a human. One of the judgments let's Satan unlock the pit and free his own fallen angels. Then the FP comes on the scene, and then an image is made. That is the order of the Second Coming, not some Hollywood event or some interpretations that miss the mark completely.

 

[Timtofly]

Just because I don't believe a Pre-trib Rapture theory which started being preached in 1830s Great Britain by John Nelson Darby and Edward Irving doesn't mean I believe in man's theory of Preterism either. The timelines written in God's Word stand independent of men's theories that are obviously not aligned with it. And those two systems of men's doctrines are obviously not aligned with the written Word of God. Nor does it matter how 'popular' men's theories are. If it don't align, then it ain't God's Word; simple as that.

And your short history of Israel rejecting Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ is irrelevant to the Pre-trib Rapture theory subject being discussed here. Pre-tribulationism didn't even start being preached in a Christian Church until the 1830s.

The Second Coming starts the Judgments it does not "swoop in" at the end. The Lamb on earth is going to be present during these worse of times. That is what Jesus teaches us.

 

[Timtofly]

Many Christian brethren, I will even say the MAJORITY of Christian brethren, DO... 'see' the second coming of Christ correctly.

It's easy to understand per God's Word too, because it is written often about in God's Holy Writ. Jesus even gave the event clearly Himself in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 which parallels 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, and even greater detail of it is given in Zechariah 14 and Acts 1 on the 'how'.

The problem with those who can't or won't understand those above Scriptures is because of being brainwashed by the leaven doctrines of men, something Lord Jesus warned His disciples about.

There are many so-called-churches out there which are not real churches at all; they are what was called in the Old Testament 'beth-avens', which means 'houses of vanity'. That is where the false prophets that taught against God's Word dwelt and had their followings.

I have seen a couple who do see the 6th Seal as the Second Coming. Most look at you funny when you say that and walk away.

The 6th Seal is not the 7th Trumpet. A Seal is a Seal, and a Trumpet is a Trumpet, and they are not the same event.

 

[Timtofly]

So, Jesus will kill you to remake you if He returns today and you are alive?

What method will he use to kill you and your loved ones?

The angels come at the Second Coming and those in the 6th Seal can see them. They are the stars that land like fig leaves. Angels are not fast enough for the soul moving from this corruptible body to an incorruptible body for one who is at death's door. You watch way too many movies. The sheep and wheat are transported from both a place and a when to another place and another when, there is no passing through Paradise and receiving a glorified body. They move through time via an angel because that is the angels God given task. Now you may think that is made up, but if one dies prior to Satan's 42 months in the final harvest after the Second Coming, Revelation 20:4 is where and when they end up. The sea of glass is not Paradise, but who wants to have to sit for 42 months watching Satan? That sounds like punishment.

And you thought the Second Coming and rapture was complicated. That is the easiest explanation, because Paul gave it to us twice. The false teaching for this age has been the battle of Armageddon. It is not the 1st Seal as one big circle of Judgment. The first Seal was covid 19, and all the false prophets are saying no way! It took 1 and left 1. It grew and took many and left many. It will not stop until the 5th Seal is opened. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming after the tribulation of those days of covid, and the aftermath of the 4th Seal of war, famine, more covid, and now wild animals killing humans.

 

[Truther]

No, sorry--you have it wrong. Many Christians have it wrong. They think the whole book of Revelation is the "Great Tribulation." That is a gross over-simplification. The book is very much focused on the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist. But that does not mean the whole book is just about that, nor does it mean that the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist is actually called the "Great Tribulation."

I showed you what Jesus identified as the "Great Tribulation," or "Great Distress." It is the historical punishment of the Jewish People, beginning in 70 AD and ending at the return of Christ. Why you cannot acknowledge what *Jesus taught* is beyond me, if you call yourself a Christian?

Don't get me wrong--I'm not questioning your Christianity. I'm just saying that being a Christian we tend to value what Jesus explicitly taught. And you're not acknowledging what he taught in regard to the "Great Tribulation."

So you really believe that Rev 6 happened in the last 2000 years?

Did it finally subside into a world of peace, with few skirmishes worldwide?

Can you find this time of world peace in the book of Rev. as Christ returns to it in it's condition?

 

[Truther]

You are completely ignoring what Jesus said, which I just quoted. Jesus identified the "Great Tribulation," or the "Great Distress," as the punishment of the Jews afflicted on them, beginning in 70 AD.

This is how Jesus identified it, and how you should identify it. You should conform your opinions to Jesus' words, brother. I could care less how we might want to arrange his words to fit our theology--it isn't what we want to believe or defend, but what Jesus explicitly says.

You seem to have a strange order for these events. You have a sequence in which a "great tribulation" follows the "fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles." That is impossible, because the "fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles" *follows* the Great Tribulation of the Jewish People in NT history.

The "fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles" is, for Jesus, the end of the age and the completion of God's promise to finally deliver Israel for all time. I call this the "Jewish Hope." It is all through the OT Prophets! The Jewish punishment in history must, therefore, precede it!

Yes the Jews were dispersed.

Then they have been regathering per the Prophets.

Do the Gentiles or Jews rule the city of Jerusalem now, especially since Trump officially made it the capital of Israel?

So, the times of the gentiles are fulfilled before our eyes, giving way to this....


25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


....Which has not happened in history yet.

 

[Truther]

The angels come at the Second Coming and those in the 6th Seal can see them. They are the stars that land like fig leaves. Angels are not fast enough for the soul moving from this corruptible body to an incorruptible body for one who is at death's door. You watch way too many movies. The sheep and wheat are transported from both a place and a when to another place and another when, there is no passing through Paradise and receiving a glorified body. They move through time via an angel because that is the angels God given task. Now you may think that is made up, but if one dies prior to Satan's 42 months in the final harvest after the Second Coming, Revelation 20:4 is where and when they end up. The sea of glass is not Paradise, but who wants to have to sit for 42 months watching Satan? That sounds like punishment.

And you thought the Second Coming and rapture was complicated. That is the easiest explanation, because Paul gave it to us twice. The false teaching for this age has been the battle of Armageddon. It is not the 1st Seal as one big circle of Judgment. The first Seal was covid 19, and all the false prophets are saying no way! It took 1 and left 1. It grew and took many and left many. It will not stop until the 5th Seal is opened. The 6th Seal is the Second Coming after the tribulation of those days of covid, and the aftermath of the 4th Seal of war, famine, more covid, and now wild animals killing humans.

So is Jesus(via the wrath of God on the earth) or the Antichrist going to kill all of the Christians prior to the 2nd coming....or both?

 

[Timtofly]

So is Jesus(via the wrath of God on the earth) or the Antichrist going to kill all of the Christians prior to the 2nd coming....or both?

Neither.

No one could know if any Christian is alive and remain, could they?

The only fact any will know is the second it happens and we find ourselves changed in midair as Paul claimed.

This is not because someone thinks they are a Christian. This is based on the fact it is a time of apostasy, and claiming to be a Christian and being a Christian are two different things. Some who claim to be a Christian are one in title because they have been deceived. That is what deception is. Some will be Christians, but walking around naked and not clothed in a godly example. Samson killed more in his death, than he could have, in life, because he played with the world too much. Samson was even blind in the end, but God gave him one last insight.

There is no antichrist ruler coming to "save the day".

 

[Truther]

Neither.

No one could know if any Christian is alive and remain, could they?

The only fact any will know is the second it happens and we find ourselves changed in midair as Paul claimed.

This is not because someone thinks they are a Christian. This is based on the fact it is a time of apostasy, and claiming to be a Christian and being a Christian are two different things. Some who claim to be a Christian are one in title because they have been deceived. That is what deception is. Some will be Christians, but walking around naked and not clothed in a godly example. Samson killed more in his death, than he could have, in life, because he played with the world too much. Samson was even blind in the end, but God gave him one last insight.

There is no antichrist ruler coming to "save the day".

So you agree with me that the living saints will be caught up without having to die first?

 

[n2thelight]

If you do not believe in the catching away to heaven of the living, and all must die first, then please tell me how Jesus will kill His saints and loved ones at the last trump?

Beheading?

Heart attacks?

Poisoning?

Strangulation?


Those that do not believe in the rapture and insist all will "sleep" must explain this fact.

Those that teach post trib lean this way also.

Again you not understanding, scripture just gave you all these answers ,let's do this again

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

People have been dying since we were made flesh.

Here's the point of the matter ,all will not have died(sleep) , whichever way death may come, meaning some will still be alive when Christ returns

Those who have died are with Christ at death that's who He brings back with Him at His 2nd coming
Guess I'm still not understanding what you talking about

What do you mean by beheading and the rest of that list?