Who founded your church?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,673
3,593
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oh, for crying out loud, how many circles are we going to do?
It was in the capacity of Ex Cathedra that these monkeys made their heretical proclamations, which still stand today as dogma.
Tetzel's indulgences (Papal approved and endorsed), purgatory, all mariology, the office of Pope (Paul rebuked and corrected Peter - who's infallible?), crusades (papal ratified), inquisition (papal established and practiced), ...how many starving kids can be fed with the wealth at the Vatican - the leftovers off the pope's plate - maybe lobster is too rich for a child's empty stomach.
This post is so full of manure - it's difficult to know just where to begin . . .

Let's start with Paul's rebuke of Peter's BEHAVIOR. this has NOTHING to do with an ex cathedra statment being challenged. Paul had every right and responsibility to rebuke Peter's awful behavior. Papal Infallibility doesn't come into play here, so do your homework.

As for Johan Tetzel - his selling of Indildengces was NOT sanctioned by the Pope - and I DEFY you to show me the official document that promulgated this abuse. Neither were the Crusades a matter of Papal Infallibility. Papal Infallibility pertains to official teaching in matters of faith and morals - in other words Magesterial matters.

As for the "r
EVERY
day, the Catholic Church feeds, clothes, shelters and educates more people than any organization in the world – even MORE than many countries. Charities run by the Church include:

- 5,305 hospitals including 1694 in the Americas and 1,150 in Africa.
- 18,179 clinics including 5,762 in the Americas and 5,312 in Africa 3,884 in Asia.
- 17,223 homes for old people, the terminally ill and the handicapped – most of them (8,021) in Europe and the Americas (5,650).
- 9,882 orphanages – a third of them in Asia.
- Countless homeless shelters and food banks.


Indeed, most countries around the world don’t even come CLOSE to the charitable contributions of the Church.

Best to stick to things you know about and leave history and facts about the Church to HONEST people . . .
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,673
3,593
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why do you prefer to be so simple? Understand the enmity between the flesh and the spirit.
Paul was referring to allowing the sprit to override the desires of the flesh, not to inflict pain or discomfort in order to attain spiritual awareness. He has disciplined his fleshly impulses to desires only based on necessity, not to abuse his body with negligence and deprivation.

You see, again, when one has achieved a transcendence of the flesh, they are not cognizant of it anymore, thus their clothing and sleeping conditions are incidental to their growth. John did not intentionally deprive himself of comfort for the sake of causing irritation, but rather because they were not necessary to him, they had no appeal - he wasn't trying to be a martyr of the flesh.

The Catholic's advocation and establishment of ascetics, monks, monasteries, nuns, convents and celibacy, are antithetical to Biblical teachings. Man is not to live in isolation, nor to attract discomfort to himself - the world will bring that on its own, we are not to invite it. Christians are the light of the world, and a candle is not meant to be hid nor kept in a solitary place. Wearing clothes made out of burlap or sleeping on wooden floors, or residing in isolation in the desert and sleeping in trees or caves, are for fools who do not understand true spiritual edification
WRONG again.

The Holy Spirit, speaking through Paul stated that he DISCIPLINES his body. Discipline is just that - causing discomfort for yourself, whether it is mental, emotional or physical to achieve a greater good. In Paul's case - it was PHYSICAL because he mortified his FLESH - and the same is true for John the Baptist.

And your statement above in RED is as idiotic as it is Scripturally-bankrupt. As I stated TWICE already - John the Baptist was the poster boy for asceticism - and Jesus said mong those born of women there is NONE GREATER than John.

I guess you're gong to tell me now that Jesus is wrong.
Do your homework, dude . . . . . .
 

DNB

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2019
4,199
1,371
113
Toronto
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
WRONG again.

The Holy Spirit, speaking through Paul stated that he DISCIPLINES his body. Discipline is just that - causing discomfort for yourself, whether it is mental, emotional or physical to achieve a greater good. In Paul's case - it was PHYSICAL because he mortified his FLESH - and the same is true for John the Baptist.

And your statement above in RED is as idiotic as it is Scripturally-bankrupt. As I stated TWICE already - John the Baptist was the poster boy for asceticism - and Jesus said mong those born of women there is NONE GREATER than John.

I guess you're gong to tell me now that Jesus is wrong.
Do your homework, dude . . . . . .
No dude, Jesus is never wrong, but you are constantly.
If, as you say, John is the paradigm for asceticism, that is a development only within the unholy Catholic church.
Honestly, your lack of understanding of Paul's self-discipline is verging on humorous, let alone adolescent.
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,673
3,593
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No dude, Jesus is never wrong, but you are constantly.
If, as you say, John is the paradigm for asceticism, that is a development only within the unholy Catholic church.
Honestly, your lack of understanding of Paul's self-discipline is verging on humorous, let alone adolescent.
And what YOU keep refusing to understand because yoi are weak is that self-discipline rquires a level of SUFFERING for Christ that YOU are unwilling to go through.

1 Cor. 9:27
“But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified”.

Rom. 8:13
"If you live after the flesh, you shall die, but if through the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live."

1 Pet. 2:21
To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

Col. 3:5
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

Rom. 8:16-17
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Gal. 5:24
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
 

DNB

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2019
4,199
1,371
113
Toronto
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
And what YOU keep refusing to understand because yoi are weak is that self-discipline rquires a level of SUFFERING for Christ that YOU are unwilling to go through.

1 Cor. 9:27
“But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified”.

Rom. 8:13
"If you live after the flesh, you shall die, but if through the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live."

1 Pet. 2:21
To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

Col. 3:5
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.

Rom. 8:16-17
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Gal. 5:24
And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
No, not at all, your view is very backwards. The suffering for Christ is not physical, we are not fighting flesh, but spiritual wickedness in high & low places. That is another fight altogether. Again, self-control is something different, but, the same in that wisdom is what causes a person to desist sin. In other words, refraining from gluttony is one thing, but not having the desire is another. Therefore, training the body is to no avail, it is the mind that needs refurbishing. This is what Paul meant about submitting and controlling the body - using spiritual approaches, not corporeal punishment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Brakelite

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,961
1,796
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I was refuting the argument which Catholics always use, that their Church was developed by Apostolic succession, whereas Protestant denominations, are the mere product of the imaginations of men. In other words, the controversy is not about one's humanity, but about one's inspiration and authority behind their Church and creeds.

Not one of the Catholic councils, bulls, treatises or dogma, has the mark of a first century apostle. Meaning, their proclamations are not only extraneous to Scripture, but in defiance of it.
Thank you that helps clear things up a bit for me I appreciate it. I understand your stance on Catholic councils, bulls, treatises and dogma even though I don't agree with them. Do you believe any Protestant denominations dogma's are in defiance of Scripture?

Mary
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
21,673
3,593
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, not at all, your view is very backwards. The suffering for Christ is not physical, we are not fighting flesh, but spiritual wickedness in high & low places. That is another fight altogether. Again, self-control is something different, but, the same in that wisdom is what causes a person to desist sin. In other words, refraining from gluttony is one thing, but not having the desire is another. Therefore, training the body is to no avail, it is the mind that needs refurbishing. This is what Paul meant about submitting and controlling the body - using spiritual approaches, not corporeal punishment.
We are fighting ourselves. THAT is what our struggle is.
It is a spiritual and PHYSICAL battle. What do you think fasting is??

Paul talked about discipplining his BODY - because that is where sin is manifested. Nobody is talking about self-flagellation or walking on glass. YOU object to mortification of the flesh because of your weakness - AND your affinity for Dan Brown novels . . .
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As a teenager I had fell in with my generation and that was where my care lay...

Attention
Appreciation
Acceptance

I moved in with my grandmother and ended up away from my former cares. I would end up farming and attending revivals at the local Pentecostal Holiness church. At the end of that summer we had a good revival in which the Lord seemed there in a mighty way. On reading the book, Run Baby Run, by Nikki Cruise, I felt a voice telling me to put the book down. I paused, and then continued again to read. The voice said again, Put the book down. I slept in my Grandmothers living room on an old fold away cot by the open living room door. The Katydids seemed to be singing very loud that night. There in my Grandmothers clean linens I heard the Spirit speak again, "Where is all the stress, worry and hatred?" In which, upon examining my heart, there was nothing there but pure beauty. I thought to myself. "Oh my! I got exactly what those people got!"

I knew nothing of the word ‘tradition’ but only knew that I had run into the divine nature. But I know after study that the Catholics would hate people to the point of burning them at the stake, which tradition I would never be interested in.

typical fundamentalist misinformation and spiritual blindness
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Baptism by water doesn't save.
When we were saved by grace through faith in the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, we were positioned in Him and identified with Him. We were clothed with Christ.. placed into the body of Christ and made one with Him.. and Paul calls this being 'baptised into Christ'. By faith we became One with Christ and identified with Him, such that His righteousness became our righteousness,

Spiritual baptism and salvation are one and the same.

really?

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark none were saved, outside the church none are saved)
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (baptism)
 

Renniks

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2020
4,308
1,392
113
57
Pennsylvania
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
really?

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark none were saved, outside the church none are saved)
You only quoted half the verse...21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

What saves? Not the water, but the pledge to follow God.
 

Renniks

Well-Known Member
Feb 3, 2020
4,308
1,392
113
57
Pennsylvania
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (baptism)
Another verse making it clear that the water doesn't save.

He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

In fact baptism is not even mentioned. We are justified by grace, not by a symbol.
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You only quoted half the verse...21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

What saves? Not the water, but the pledge to follow God.
Another verse making it clear that the water doesn't save.

He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

In fact baptism is not even mentioned. We are justified by grace, not by a symbol.
Another verse making it clear that the water doesn't save.

He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

In fact baptism is not even mentioned. We are justified by grace, not by a symbol.

It’s only necessary for salvation

mark 16:16
He who believes and is baptized shall be saved

Acts 8 Philip preached Jesus how does the eunuch know about baptism?


Baptism!

Old Testament pre-figures of baptism.

Psalm 36:9
For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.

Song of Solomon 4:15
A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.

Isaiah 41:18
I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put withi n you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

New Testament

Matt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

( Disciples by baptism not faith alone)

Mk 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mark 16:16
he who believes and is baptized shall be saved!

Jn 1: 11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (Baptism)

John 1:26
John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6
And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)

John3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:4
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Act 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.(Baptism)

Acts 8:36
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Philip preached Jesus and the result is justification by baptism!

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:5 
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Gal 4:19
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (baptism)

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: see Ez 36

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (baptism rom 6:3-4)

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptism!
 

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Becoming a Disciple by baptism!

Matt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
 

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,961
1,796
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Most of Protestants' dogma that are in defiance of scripture are the ones they inherited from Catholicism and haven't yet thrown out.
Interesting.....The further Christians get away from Catholic teaching the closer they are to the Truth (even though all their truths disagree with each other)....Fascinating.....Thank you!
 
  • Like
Reactions: BreadOfLife

theefaith

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2020
20,070
1,355
113
64
Dallas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Interesting.....The further Christians get away from Catholic teaching the closer they are to the Truth (even though all their truths disagree with each other)....Fascinating.....Thank you!
You cannot violate the law of non-contradiction
Other wise your like the guy in fiddler on the roof who said, “he is right and he is right, they can’t both be right” you know something you also are right! Well put!
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,808
4,086
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
You cannot violate the law of non-contradiction
Other wise your like the guy in fiddler on the roof who said, “he is right and he is right, they can’t both be right” you know something you also are right! Well put!

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

apparently men are more right than God Himself.