Who founded your church?

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Ronald David Bruno

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Hey Ronald,

In context here is that interaction between Jesus and Peter that you are referring to: “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Furthermore Jesus said to Peter, "You shall be called Cephas”. The name Cephas is an anglicized form of the Aramaic Kepha, which means simply “rock.”

Soooooo Jesus renamed Simon to a name that means "rock" but your theory is that Jesus was referring to himself as the rock when he said "YOU" seven times to a person he just called a "rock"???

Also I get your gist of your "Jesus is the rock that all churches are built on - not Peter". What do you make of 1 Peter 2:6 that refers to Jesus as the cornerstone? And Ephesians 2 that says the household of God; having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone?

Curious Mary
Did Jesus say to Peter, YOU will build My Church? No, He said I will build My church. He had to start somewhere and why not with a guy that constantly put his foot in his mouth and denied Jesus three times. We can do nothing without God. It's interesting you bring up the other scriptures that refer to Jesus as the cornerstone. The spiritual is manifest in the physical through us. Peter was the first to receive the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. It is very possible that since he gathered no moss, he must have been the first Rolling Stone.
 

Philip James

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that’s why he says Peter and why he gave Peter the keys of heavenly authority



he named Peter gave the keys of heaven to Peter, the church built by Christ Matt 16:18 on the apostles eph 2:20
Peter head day of the church on earth!

Matt 10:2
First apostle Peter:

Matt 17:27
Jesus and Peter are one:
Jesus even works a miracle to make this point. 27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:

Lk 22:32
Peter commanded to confirm his breathren:

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

Matt 10:2
Peter is the prince of the apostles, head of the universal church on earth!

Jn 20:21-23
Peter and the apostles receive the Holy Spirit and the power to forgive sins:

Acts 1:15 1:17 1:26
Peter declares Judas office of apostle valid and vacant and chooses a successor:

Acts 2:14
Peter preaches the first sermon on Pentecost:

Acts 2:38
Peter requires baptism as the outward sign and initiation into the new covenant!

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Acts 5 authority of the apostles verified by them being stricken dead by God verifying Matt 16:18 matt 18:18 whatsoever you bind on earth is bound in heaven and the apostles have the light of the Holy Spirit!

Don't forget Jesus teaching the crowd from Simon's boat:

Luke 5:3

Getting into one of the boats, the one belonging to Simon, he asked him to put out a short distance from the shore. Then he sat down and taught the crowds from the boat.


Peace be with you!
 

theefaith

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Coming up out of the water sounds like immersion to me. Does it matter? Probably not because the water doesn't save anyway. But I think you're grasping at straws, trying to get sprinkling from scripture.

the didache teaching of the apostles
Coming up out of the water sounds like immersion to me. Does it matter? Probably not because the water doesn't save anyway. But I think you're grasping at straws, trying to get sprinkling from scripture.

Didache teaching of the apostles

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptizeinto the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19in living water. (immersion) But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptismlet the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

only immersion in the example of Jesus is like saying you must also be baptized by a John the Baptist in the Jordan river? Go figure
 

mjrhealth

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I don't need to ask Him....you already told me and you are clearly his mouthpiece here on earth.
Why are you afraid of the truth, He is the truth and in Him there is no lie. You know that bit, suffer not the little children to come unto me, why do you so insist on keeping His children from Him, and why do you refuse Him, your husband to be.
 

Renniks

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However, I personally do believe that immersion was PROBABLY the preferred method.
I'm not a baptism fanatic, so I'm not going to argue about the method. I've been to churches that overemphasize it. Over emphasizing any act as contributing to salvation is dangerous and wrong. My own father was baptized late in life by sprinkling, the wesleyan methodist church allows that. I don't believe that has anything to do with his salvation, it's only an outward sign to others of his commitment.
 

Marymog

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Probably not because the water doesn't save anyway. .
1 Peter 2:21 disagrees with you: baptism (which is done with water) doth also now save us

The Apostles taught us what Jesus taught them and to reject them is to reject Him (Luke 10:16) . Since it is necessary to obey Him to be saved it is necessary to be baptized (Matthew 28:19). You can't be baptized without water sooooo water is necessary!! Did you know baptism is necessary and saves has been taught for 2,000 years? It wasn't until about 500 years ago your teaching became popular.



Bible study Mary
 

Renniks

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Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptizeinto the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19in living water. (immersion) But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptismlet the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.
What are you quoting from?
 

Marymog

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I'm not a baptism fanatic, so I'm not going to argue about the method. I've been to churches that overemphasize it. Over emphasizing any act as contributing to salvation is dangerous and wrong. My own father was baptized late in life by sprinkling, the wesleyan methodist church allows that. I don't believe that has anything to do with his salvation, it's only an outward sign to others of his commitment.
Sooooo you "don't believe that has anything to do with his salvation" even though Scripture says ""baptism now saves you" and it washes away your sins??? Interesting...

Thanks for your time!
 

Philip James

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When One priesthood fails, God raises up a new priesthood out of the remnant of the old that did not get corrupted, this is the true church history, as well as what happened in Israel.

Hunh? The priesthood of Israel retained its authority in the line of aaron and the levites throughout its history...

It was Christ Himself who took their authority away and gave it to the apostles and their successors.... Did He come again and change it? If He did not, then by what authority can just anyone start a community and call it the Church?

Jesus' Church does not fail and get replanted, fail and get replanted...etc... The enemy is the one who sows division and faction amongst the brethren...

So yes, Babylon is a state, but the woman riding the beast is a religious system

Repeatedly asserting this does not make it so... Are you willing to let go of the presuppositions taught to you by men? If you are, then perhaps you'll hear His voice..

If today you hear His voice, harden not your heart

because this is what the Holy Ghost has shown me,

The Holy Ghost calls us to union with one another, He does not cause division.

The Eucharist is both the sign and the instrument of that unity:

The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?


Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.


Peace!
 

Renniks

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1 Peter 2:21 disagrees with you: baptism (which is done with water) doth also now save us

The Apostles taught us what Jesus taught them and to reject them is to reject Him (Luke 10:16) . Since it is necessary to obey Him to be saved it is necessary to be baptized (Matthew 28:19). You can't be baptized without water sooooo water is necessary!! Did you know baptism is necessary and saves has been taught for 2,000 years? It wasn't until about 500 years ago your teaching became popular.



Bible study Mary
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age. Amen "(Matthew 28:19-20). We have here a command of Christ that we should make disciples of all nations, and instrumental in that task is the act of baptizing converts. In other words, baptism is part of making disciples. However, it does not say here that baptism is necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. If we are to assume that baptism is essential to salvation, then by consistent interpretation of the context, we should say that absolute obedience to all of Christ's commands is also necessary for salvation.

But this, of course, is contrary to the teaching of Scripture. Scripture tells us that no Christian is without sin (I John 1:7-2:2). If, then, we are to say that believers who do not obey all of Christ's commands may be saved, then we must, unless some other text teaches otherwise, say that believers who are not baptized may also be saved.
 

Philip James

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From the remnant of the apostolic church he raised up the church of Smyrna,

St. Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna. He commends Ignatius:

The letters of Ignatius which were sent to us by him, and others as
many as we had by us, we send unto you, according as ye gave charge;
the which are subjoined to this letter; from which ye will be able to
gain great advantage. For they comprise faith and endurance and every
kind of edification, which pertaineth unto our Lord.

Polycarp to the Philippians (Lightfoot translation)

Peace!
 

Renniks

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Sooooo you "don't believe that has anything to do with his salvation" even though Scripture says ""baptism now saves you" and it washes away your sins??? Interesting...

Thanks for your time!
You are " cherry picking" parts of verses, carving up the Word to make your doctrine work.
Quote the whole verses, not a few words of them... That's what cults do.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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that’s why he says Peter and why he gave Peter the keys of heavenly authority
I think all the Apostles had the keys to heaven - which means what exactly? The power of the Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts.

First apostle Peter:
Yes. But Peter wrote two epistles. Paul wrote thirteen. Paul actually rebuked Peter a couple times for appeasing Judaizers, hypocrisy, clinging to the Old Covenant ways.
"But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews? Gal. 2:11-14
 

Renniks

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Sooooo you "don't believe that has anything to do with his salvation" even though Scripture says ""baptism now saves you" and it washes away your sins??? Interesting...

Thanks for your time!
The fact is, my Dad was a believer long before he was ever baptized. I believe what God shows me personally above man made doctrine.
 

Marymog

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The fact is, my Dad was a believer long before he was ever baptized. I believe what God shows me personally above man made doctrine.
You believe what God shows YOU (a man) above what God shows any other man.....Interesting. I guess we can only know and believe what we know and believe.

Thanks for your time!
 

Marymog

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You are " cherry picking" parts of verses, carving up the Word to make your doctrine work.
Quote the whole verses, not a few words of them... That's what cults do.
For the sake of brevity I did "cherry pick parts of verses". But when Scripture flat out says "baptism saves you" and you deny that fact....it concerns me.

I know it wouldn't matter to you if I wrote a 500 word dissertation about how scripture and 2,000 years of Christianity history teaches the necessity of baptism and it's saving graces sooooo why waste our time?

You have your cult leaders teaching you (or are you self taught?)...I have my cult leaders teaching me....your sad attempt to belittle me and The Church doesn't bother me.
 

Renniks

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For the sake of brevity I did "cherry pick parts of verses". But when Scripture flat out says "baptism saves you" and you deny that fact....it concerns me.

I know it wouldn't matter to you if I wrote a 500 word dissertation about how scripture and 2,000 years of Christianity history teaches the necessity of baptism and it's saving graces sooooo why waste our time?

You have your cult leaders teaching you (or are you self taught?)...I have my cult leaders teaching me....your sad attempt to belittle me and The Church doesn't bother me.
So we are all in a cult? I don't think so. And I never said the Catholic Church was a cult, I said cults do that.
 

Renniks

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You believe what God shows YOU (a man) above what God shows any other man.....Interesting. I guess we can only know and believe what we know and believe.

Thanks for your time!
Of course. We all believe what we are personally shown, don't we? If God speaks to me personally about something, that's way more convincing than someone on the internet telling me such and such.
 

David H.

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Hunh? The priesthood of Israel retained its authority in the line of aaron and the levites throughout its history...

It was Christ Himself who took their authority away and gave it to the apostles and their successors.... Did He come again and change it? If He did not, then by what authority can just anyone start a community and call it the Church?

Jesus' Church does not fail and get replanted, fail and get replanted...etc... The enemy is the one who sows division and faction amongst the brethren...

You obviously do not know Old testament History, Here is a video to help you understand:
A Remnant Priesthood (David Wilkerson) - YouTube

The Holy Ghost calls us to union with one another, He does not cause division.
Yes, Union, among believers, but not with the world and the kingdoms of this world as the RCC has done.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. ( 2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

Can you have union with a believer who believes in Christ Jesus, and holds to the Apostolic creed the same as you do, but does not believe in the Vatican and the Papacy as the one church, and sees it as a corrupt institution?
 

David H.

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St. Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna. He commends Ignatius:

The letters of Ignatius which were sent to us by him, and others as
many as we had by us, we send unto you, according as ye gave charge;
the which are subjoined to this letter; from which ye will be able to
gain great advantage. For they comprise faith and endurance and every
kind of edification, which pertaineth unto our Lord.

One of my favorite early church writings, I have read it many times. He was a disciple of John. the Apostolic church was largely a Hebrew church, after the destruction of the temple the apostolic church became the church of Ephesus, headed by John, and which in turn became the church of Smyrna the persecuted church which lasted and thrived till Constantine. I Believe in the church ages as the progressive revelation to the church, one builds upon the next. We are now living in the Laodicean age. Rome has a big part in that as do the reformation and Wesleyan fundamentalism and Pentecostalism. I do not discredit any of them, but see flaws in all of them, that lead to the next step in the growth of the church. That is where Unity comes from, not from concord with Belial, but with the unity of the Spirit. I consider myself a Laodicean, and we all who are believers in this day and age are.