The Truth About The Rapture

[religusnut]

I read the above posts for a while chuckling all the time. The truth of the matter is that regardless of where you have studied, and what kind of degrees you have, if the Holy Spirit does not reveal it to you from the Bible you are clueless.


I have studied with numerous people over the years that came from different denominations...... and belief systems than I. They would come to me wanting more than they had. Normally they come, they see something and they go back to those that taught them before to refute, and come then back to argue again.

They agree normally that the dead religion that they are in can't give them the relationship with God that they are hunting but they refuse to accept the truths that somebody else can show them to further that relationship.

One can know all that there is about God from the scriptures, even to the point of remembering the Bible from cover to cover so well that they can recite it, but if they do not know the Holy Spirit of God it is only black words written on white paper. It just becomes something to argue about. Something for those that are ever seeking but never coming to the knowledge of truth.

Education is a good thing. The problem lies in the fact of what one learned. Just because it is accepted as being Orthodoxy does not mean that it is true.

Paul had studied under some of the best that there was. In today's society he would probably have the equivalent of a Doctrine in Theology. Guess what he did not have a clue before his Damascus Road experience.

You can argue and brag about your education systems and your knowledge forever. When it is all said and done and you hear those words, "Depart from me you workers of iniquity I never KNEW you," none of that is going to matter.

 

[Vincent]

But Paul, there are people who have studied scripture for decades, many with a focus on just this topic.
They have Ph.Ds and an absolute heart for God. They meet with others, not to find support for their position but to get to the truth.
Many of these God fearing, spirit filled, Jesus searching people are in disagreement with each other over the topic.

You mention the years you have spend studying scripture. If I said I could match the years you spend studying but disagree with what you found, how then could you say which of us is wrong?
If I have searched the scripture with the same intensity, sincerity and open-mindedness that I believe you have, but we come to a different opinion, how can either of us say the other is wrong? OF COURSE one of us is wrong....but which?

I tend not to believe in the pre-Tribulation Rapture. But there is indeed scripture that supports the idea of a pre-Tribulation Rapture.
I am not the "double minded man" that James speaks of. I am simply studying further to sort through what appears to be almost conflicting information.
Belief in the Rapture is not the "perverting of scripture" or "demonic doctrine" that people on this board rant about. These are God loving people who are seeking and have come to this conclusion. The hope should be that they simply learn the truth.

Again, simply feel that if there is disagreement between people more learned than I who are seeking God with their whole hearts, then an open mind is warranted.

If the scriptures seem to conflict then you obviously haven't got clear understanding. When all the pieces fit together perfectly, then you know you've got the correct interpretation.

 

[Vincent]

Hello all. I'm joining the discussion late but I love this topic. I agree with Xander. The rapture concept is a deception, and Satan is doing all he can to perpetuate it, including using Hollywood. It's ironic to see Christians talking of the "great deception" when it is they themselves who are being deceived.

Now, I'm going to throw a little more fuel on the fire, as I'm sure some of my comments here will be controversial.

As for the resurrections, I think Revelation makes it all quite clear. The first resurrection is only for the martyrs. The 5th seal shows the martyrs waiting for the number of martyrs to be complete. The 6th seal shows all the martyrs being resurrected. The 7th seal is the millennium, time of rest. The trumpets and bowls take place after the millennium, including the harvest of the earth and all that other good stuff.

The second resurrection includes both the righteous and the wicked. That has been made clear in a number of places. It would include any Christians who died without being martyred, and everybody else who doesn't even follow Jesus.

The way I see the millennium is quite simply a time of rest from Satan. Many of us will live on into the millennium and experience the transition. During the millennium babies will be born, people will grow old and people will die.

The martyrs resurrected at the start of the millennium will be our judges. If it was a George Lucas movie it would be called "The Return of The Judges". See there was a time before King Saul and King David, that God's people had no king, only Judges. When the people asked for a king, God was angry and insulted because he was their King but they didn't recognize that. God is going to return us to that arrangement, where he will be King over us and we will have Judges reign on the earth to represent him, during the millennium. That's why it says they are given authority to judge.

That's how I see it.

 

[Martin W.]

Scripture clearly teaches the rapture. It is beyond debate.

It is the timing that is uncertain. Not the rapture itself.

Most people will neither win or lose the rapture debate. It is endless arguing.

Because they do not know what the heck they are talking about in the first place.

If they do not know what the heck they are talking about in the first place ,
they certainly will not know what they are talking about by the end.

If someone says there is no rapture , they are wrong.

If someone wants to debate the timing , that is fair and proper.

Make sure you are debating the right thing folks.

Best wishes in your studies.

Martin.

 

[Vincent]

Actually I think there is lots of room to debate the validity of a rapture.

For example: Jesus said "I pray not that you take them out of this world but that you protect them from the evil one". That alone should cast doubt on the rapture theory.

 

[bud02]

Actually I think there is lots of room to debate the validity of a rapture.

For example: Jesus said "I pray not that you take them out of this world but that you protect them from the evil one". That alone should cast doubt on the rapture theory.

And that my friend is properly dividing the word of God.

 

[Martin W.]

But Paul, there are people who have studied scripture for decades, many with a focus on just this topic.
They have Ph.Ds and an absolute heart for God. They meet with others, not to find support for their position but to get to the truth.
Many of these God fearing, spirit filled, Jesus searching people are in disagreement with each other over the topic.

You mention the years you have spend studying scripture. If I said I could match the years you spend studying but disagree with what you found, how then could you say which of us is wrong?
If I have searched the scripture with the same intensity, sincerity and open-mindedness that I believe you have, but we come to a different opinion, how can either of us say the other is wrong? OF COURSE one of us is wrong....but which?

I tend not to believe in the pre-Tribulation Rapture. But there is indeed scripture that supports the idea of a pre-Tribulation Rapture.
I am not the "double minded man" that James speaks of. I am simply studying further to sort through what appears to be almost conflicting information.
Belief in the Rapture is not the "perverting of scripture" or "demonic doctrine" that people on this board rant about. These are God loving people who are seeking and have come to this conclusion. The hope should be that they simply learn the truth.

Again, simply feel that if there is disagreement between people more learned than I who are seeking God with their whole hearts, then an open mind is warranted.

Foreigner has said it very well. We would be wise to apply his suggestions to ourselves. The exact timing of the rapture is extremely difficult to pinpoint , maybe even impossible for us.

If that is the case , how then can any one of us claim to know the exact timing.

What has always puzzled me is the hatred some folks have toward the possibility that Jesus may remove his followers before he pours out his wrath against those who are not his followers. He makes it clear his wrath will be worldwide.

If he removes us ahead of time it would be good news. He may have a different plan , but whatever it is , I will never bash him for saying he will "keep us from" his wrath. That was his intent all along. That is the essence of Christianity. Always has been.

Certainly Jesus saves us from the wrath of eternal punishment for our sins. Maybe that is what he is referring to.. But I am willing to allow that he may also keep us from the wrath of the great tribulation. Whether we are translated up to meet him in the clouds , or still down here is of secondary importance, not primary. We are told clearly we are on the winning team. Not the objects of wrath.

Non-scholars (and some scholars) make a small but significant error. It regards Israel (and her people) in the end times. They will all be here , and will receive the brunt of the effects of the tribulation. It will be a horrible time for them.

God's chosen people (Israel) are at times referred to as the "elect" and the "saints".

We must not confuse them (Israel) with the "elect" and the "saints" of Christianity.

Remember that when "the full number of gentiles has come in" , God closes a door on the gentile christian church , and then focuses his attention back on his people Israel.

Israel is the main focus in the end times. Not the church Jesus built for 2000 years.


Best regards in your studies. Study carefully.

Thanks

A. Martin M.
Woodside

 

[Martin W.]

Actually I think there is lots of room to debate the validity of a rapture.

For example: Jesus said "I pray not that you take them out of this world but that you protect them from the evil one". That alone should cast doubt on the rapture theory.

With all respect Vincent ( and Bud02 ) you have just exposed a common mistake of the wrong way to read a bible. Not you alone , many people do as well. My comment is not directed at you personally , but is done to point out common errors christians make. Thank you , and best wishes.

The above quote given above in red has absolutely nothing to do with any rapture doctrine whatsoever. Period. It is a mistake to apply it as such.

In John 17:6-19 Jesus is praying for his disciples.

Study carefully folks. Identify context. Then maybe we will achieve the unity Jesus mentioned when he prayed for us in John 17: 20-26

Best regards.

Thanks
Martin.

 

[Martin W.]

I have to run now folks. I just want everybody to know my motive and intent.

The bible reveals an important (and simple) message for us about salvation. It is designed so anyone can understand (the simple) teachings.

If some of us want to learn to a higher level , many additional things are revealed. It can become very absorbing and very interesting. I love it.

To unlock even the most profound truths and teachings is not for the everyday layman quoting random scripture. It requires a scholarly approach and a careful application of context and the meaning of root words. It is like God designed the bible to both reveal a simple message and a complicated cryptic message all at once.

Some gifted scholars spend their whole lives studying scripture .... nothing new there. What we should observe is they are also quick to point out "we do not know the exact answer to that" when it comes to certain doctrine.

Sometimes difficult doctrine (like the rapture) comes down to simply being a "best guess" and good scholars usually present it as such. It reflects an honesty that we should appreciate.

I am not a gifted scholar. But in my early years I did a short (home study) on how to properly read scripture. That quick teaching was extremely helpfull all these years. If I get time I will look up my old books and start a thread with some pointers.

It is very simple and unlocks many truths. I love truth. Wherever it takes me.

Talk later.

Martin

 

[Vincent]

With all respect Vincent ( and Bud02 ) you have just exposed a common mistake of the wrong way to read a bible. Not you alone , many people do as well. My comment is not directed at you personally , but is done to point out common errors christians make. Thank you , and best wishes.

The above quote given above in red has absolutely nothing to do with any rapture doctrine whatsoever. Period. It is a mistake to apply it as such.

In John 17:6-19 Jesus is praying for his disciples.

Study carefully folks. Identify context. Then maybe we will achieve the unity Jesus mentioned when he prayed for us in John 17: 20-26

Best regards.

Thanks
Martin.

We are all his disciples.

 

[Martin W.]

We are all his disciples.

We are not the twelve and you know it.

Do not argue with me. I am not interested in arguing.
When somebody want to argue with me , I put my money on the table and challenge a bet.
I never lose a bet.
I will give you a thousand Canadian dollars if you can find your name or my name on the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven.
If you cannot find your name or my name on the 12 foundations , you owe me a thousand Canadian dollars.
Are you willing? I am.
Stand up for that which you claim.

Not so easy is it ?

=====


By the way everybody else (and Vincent as well) , never hesitate to argue against me or debate me. I learn a lot from it and hope you do too. It can be valuable both ways. Please continue.

But I will not argue about who Jesus was praying for in John 17. It is a waste of valuable Christian time. We do not have time to waste. Everybody read John 17 until you are blue in the face or until you understand who Jesus is praying for , whichever comes first. Thank you.

Once you get that squared away , read the second last chapter in the bible.. It explains the foundations.

When a man chooses to read carefully , The Holy Spirit loves it , because He wrote it carefully.

I pray that every one of us reads carefully , I pray for myself too. Sometimes it works.

Martin

 

[Vincent]

I think you're getting disciples and apostles mixed up.

 

[TexUs]

So what's your views of heaven, then, OP?

We are not vaporized to heaven, so then... the question becomes... are we EVER? Do you believe in Soul Sleep then?
Note I don't disagree with any of these points I'm just curious.

My issue is that while I agree with these points (save for your Matthew 24 usage, I take this as being fulfilled in 70AD), how do you deal with the thief on the cross that will meet Christ in paradise? If we can't follow, how did the thief?
And naturally hand in hand is this, what do you take the picture of "heaven" in Luke to mean?

 

[[email protected]]

Who in this thread has the power and authority to claim the timing of the rapture.

I do not make the claim to know the answer.

If you can make the claim , then stand up and be counted.

Arnie Madsen.

Rapture "timing" is a fall back position.
You cannot argue from logic, therefore you 'fall back' to the notion that 'timing' is the issue.

Ok, I'll bite. Which TIME?

First TIME, second TIME, third TIME? What is it?

Pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, post millenial..................which TIME?

Each of these dogmas definitely proves the others wrong, just as the three or four theories of evolution.
Some laugh at the pseudo-scientific evolutionary theories which prove all the others wrong while embracing Rapture dogma(S).

The true issue here isn't evacuation, its faith.
GOD has NEVER removed His children from situations where faith is necessary to confront sin and rebellion.
In fact, He has often commanded them to march INTO IT.

I submit that the Rapture dogma is ANTI-FAITH and COWARDLY in that it is escapist in nature and devoid of courage.
It is far worse than Star Wars or Avatar movies.
It totally misleads its adherents into abandoning a more healthy respect for scripture and faith in Jesus Christ.

Yes, Jesus is coming back again but He is not coming back, and coming back, and coming back, and coming back, again and again and again.

And when will Christ return?

When men have had a belly full of sin and the leadership of the Beast and when Christians have walked the walk of faith complete.
No sooner, and certainly not after and after and after.

 

[TexUs]

I submit that the Rapture dogma is ANTI-FAITH and COWARDLY in that it is escapist in nature and devoid of courage.

Right on.

I don't think you can prove ANYWHERE in scripture where people will escape the judgement of God, just the wrath of God.

You get arrested for breaking the law. You appear before the judge. You are sentenced (aka, judged). But then a nice person steps in and serves your sentence (the wrath, the penalty).
Such is the way with Christians. I see nowhere we escape judgement. In fact, if God didn't judge, he wouldn't really be a holy and perfect God, would he? There'd certainly be no hell as... With nobody being judged, nobody would be sent there.

The seals and trumpets in Revelation are both judgements, IMO, the seven bowls are the wrath. I support this with Paul's letter:
1 Corinthians 15:51... Believers still on earth until the "last trumpet". When is the last trumpet? The seventh trumpet judgement.

 

[Duckybill]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[242006]

Those that believe in Rapture have taken the mark of the beast!

 

[Rach1370]

Those that believe in Rapture have taken the mark of the beast!

How do you make that connection?

 

[242006]

How do you make that connection?

Short form answer -

1. The number of the beast, 666, is a time frame -- not an engraving or number on a chip. It represents the 6th seal in time [not order listed], the 6th trump, and the 6th vial.

2. The entire purpose of the endtime events is to test Christians. Non-christians get their chance at salvation during the Lord's Day. God has no reason to test non-christians at the endtime.

3. The Antichrist [Satan] is the 'imposter' Christ, coming to deceive the entire world. As the fake Christ, he would not be able to deceive anyone if the true Christ has already returned and raptured the church.

4. The penalty for taking the mark of the beast is missing the first resurrection. Since non-christians have not accepted 'Christ' and will already miss the first resurrection, it would not be a penalty for them to take the mark. They cannot be 'deceived' and, subsequently, cannot possibly take on the mark of the beast. The mark of the beast is reserved for those professing to be Christians.

5. The mark of the beast is received prior to the antichrist's, or the fallen angel's, appearance on the endtime scene. Hence, it is not a physical mark. The mark is a metaphor for one's beliefs. It is an actual mark as far as God is concerned.

6. All forms of rapture theory [pre-, mid -, and post -] claim that there will be a special taking of the 'Church'. The first supernatural entity on the scene, who claims to be Christ here to rapture the Church, will deceive all who think that Christ arrives first and those not taught at all about endtime order of events.

7. Since the mark of the beast is a belief and since Rapturists state that Christ will come get them, it will be easy pickings for Satan when he arrives here first as the false Christ.. Rapture is one form of the mark of the beast.

 

[Rach1370]

Short form answer -

1. The number of the beast, 666, is a time frame -- not an engraving or number on a chip. It represents the 6th seal in time [not order listed], the 6th trump, and the 6th vial.

2. The entire purpose of the endtime events is to test Christians. Non-christians get their chance at salvation during the Lord's Day. God has no reason to test non-christians at the endtime.

3. The Antichrist [Satan] is the 'imposter' Christ, coming to deceive the entire world. As the fake Christ, he would not be able to deceive anyone if the true Christ has already returned and raptured the church.

4. The penalty for taking the mark of the beast is missing the first resurrection. Since non-christians have not accepted 'Christ' and will already miss the first resurrection, it would not be a penalty for them to take the mark. They cannot be 'deceived' and, subsequently, cannot possibly take on the mark of the beast. The mark of the beast is reserved for those professing to be Christians.

5. The mark of the beast is received prior to the antichrist's, or the fallen angel's, appearance on the endtime scene. Hence, it is not a physical mark. The mark is a metaphor for one's beliefs. It is an actual mark as far as God is concerned.

6. All forms of rapture theory [pre-, mid -, and post -] claim that there will be a special taking of the 'Church'. The first supernatural entity on the scene, who claims to be Christ here to rapture the Church, will deceive all who think that Christ arrives first and those not taught at all about endtime order of events.

7. Since the mark of the beast is a belief and since Rapturists state that Christ will come get them, it will be easy pickings for Satan when he arrives here first as the false Christ.. Rapture is one form of the mark of the beast.

Yeah, sorry. I find your whole theory as much a guess as everyone else's 'End Day'. They too have found intricate and deep meaning in some of the more confusing and ambiguous Biblical comments on those escatological things. And since the Bible doesn't state out right and clearly what is going to happen, all of it remains suppostion. Beasts, dragons, temples, antichrists or Antichrist, actual disasters or metaphoric disasters, real one world government, religion and currency or just metaphorical ones? So many thoughts on all these matters, and until it all comes to pass mankind will continue to debate the topic.
Some theories fit better than others, in terms of what we are told in the Bible. I don't actually believe that the Rapture theory is an accurate one myself, but my point is this; you apparently see fit to label some Christians condemned just because they believe in the Rapture.
I know many wonderful, loving, devoted Christians, who truly live for Christ, and they believe in the Rapture. Do I agree with them on this point? No, but I hardly tell them they are damned, and they don't do the same with me.
Rapture, no Rapture...whatever. It's not a salvation issue, and as long as we all believe that one day Jesus will return and complete His Kingdom, and live everyday like we long for this, can we truly justify slinging mud at our brothers and sisters in Christ?