The church at a crossroads....

[Earburner]

We are a 'work in progress' God is still working on us and in us. It takes time from being born again to becoming mature Christians. And even when we are mature there is still much to learn.

Yes! Its the difference of knowing that through faith in the Blood of Christ, we are made to be forever sin-less before the Father, but while we are still in this flesh, we are never sin-free. That is the paradox of God's salvation.

 

[Earburner]

Anything less than complete perfection, is always total imperfection.

 

[Truman]

 

[Gideons300]

Yes! Its the difference of knowing that through faith in the Blood of Christ, we are made to be forever sin-less before the Father, but while we are still in this flesh, we are never sin-free. That is the paradox of God's salvation.

Question. Did God see the Laodecians as sinless when He told them He would spew them out of His mouth, lest they repented?

When James told the early saints they were adulterers and adultresses, double minded, as they tried to be friends with the world, were they seen as sinless?

It is only when we put on our new man that we can walk in such rarified air. Our old nature is carnal and is seen for what it is.... filthy rags. God has made a way that we truly can walk without willful sin. Whoever hungers for it will have it.... guaranteed.

Why? Simply because it is not based upon our abilities, our strength, our earnestness, our wisdom, or our knowledge of scripture. It is simply based upon our desire to please Him and be found walking in the light, believing unwaveringly that we ARE light! He will grant us the faith to believe such a thing if we simply ask Him to do as He has promised and cause us to obey Him.

Many cannot yet fathom such a thing, for they see this as making us spiritual 'robots'. But they misunderstand. God instead, working from the inside out, melts our will into His so that we want what He wants for us. Amazing God!

blessings,

Gids

 

[Truman]

Today's word is: exasperation.
Tomorrow's word is: obedience.

 

[Earburner]

Question. Did God see the Laodecians as sinless when He told them He would spew them out of His mouth, lest they repented?

When James told the early saints they were adulterers and adultresses, double minded, as they tried to be friends with the world, were they seen as sinless?

It is only when we put on our new man that we can walk in such rarified air. Our old nature is carnal and is seen for what it is.... filthy rags. God has made a way that we truly can walk without willful sin. Whoever hungers for it will have it.... guaranteed.

Why? Simply because it is not based upon our abilities, our strength, our earnestness, our wisdom, or our knowledge of scripture. It is simply based upon our desire to please Him and be found walking in the light, believing unwaveringly that we ARE light! He will grant us the faith to believe such a thing if we simply ask Him to do as He has promised and cause us to obey Him.

Many cannot yet fathom such a thing, for they see this as making us spiritual 'robots'. But they misunderstand. God instead, working from the inside out, melts our will into His so that we want what He wants for us. Amazing God!

blessings,

Gids

To be cold nor hot, is describing two extremes. Either one has the Spirit of God or they don't. Luke 11:13; Romans 8:8-9.
To be lukewarm, is to appear to have the Spirit of God, but you don't!
That is God's understanding of what a hypocrite is.

 

[Gideons300]

To be cold nor hot, is describing two extremes. Either one has the Spirit of God or they don't. Luke 11:13; Romans 8:8-9.
To be lukewarm, is to appear to have the Spirit of God, but you don't!
That is God's understanding of what a hypocrite is.

If one does not have the Spirit of God, they are not part of the church. Yet the Laodecians were most definitely addressed as His children. Lukewarmness was exemplified by the attitude that they had need of nothing, they were quite satisfied to be forgiven with no desire at all to walk pleasing to God.

Just as with another church addressed in Revelation, they had lost their first love. The sin of Laodecia, however went further. They did not care that this was their state. They were content without godliness. And most definitely, they were not seen by the Lord as sinless.

blessings,

Gids

 

[Enoch111]

Yet the Laodecians were most definitely addressed as His children.

That is not really the case. Verse 17 definitely does not describe the children of God: ...and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

1. God's children cannot be wretched since they have God as their Father.

2. God's children cannot be miserable since they have the Holy Spirit as their Comforter.

3. God's children cannot be poor since they possess all of Christ's riches.

4. God's children cannot be blind, since they have the unction of the Holy Spirit.

5. God's children cannot be naked, since they have the robe of the righteousness of Christ as a robe of fine linen, clean and white.

 

[Truther]

I have been sharing for the last several years that we as His own, each one of us individually, would be entering the valley of decision. A choice will be presented to us. And what exactly is that choice?

Us, or Him in us.

You see, we have been bought with a price. We are not our own. We are His possession. Yet, ever since the last drops of Heaven's early rain fell after the death of Paul, wolves that have crept into our midst have brought with them the mindset that we can be redeemed and still be our own boss. Well, the wolves are wrong.

The Bible is clear.

"Therefore I urge you, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Romans 12:1-2


We are told by Paul in Romans 12:1 that God's will for us.... no, more than that.... His expectation for us is that we present our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto Him and that God sees that as our reasonable service. This standard is not for the 'spiritual' ones, or for pastors only. It is for everyone. It is for me. It is for you.

He counsels us to not be conformed to this world, but rather to be transformed by the Spirit within us into the image of His Son. And yet, if we are honest, most of us will admit we are failing to live up to that expectation. The question on our lips must be 'Why"

Why was this such a common mindset in the early church and yet is now seen as not only optional but actually as radical and more than that, really impossible for us today? Why do we read that and think it is legalism? Why? The wolves have done a good job.

But guys, there is an answer and at the crossroads we now find ourselves in, with everything being shaken in our lives, God is using those shakings to awaken us to the answer we so desperately need.

But something must first happen. We must escape the mentality that we have need of nothing, that somehow, God sees us as perfect, so why sweat it? Bottom line, we must come to the point we HATE our self life. HATE our willful sin. HATE our lack of fruit. Nothing else will do.

More shakings are coming. Like birth pangs, they will increase in intensity. Their purpose is not to destroy us, but rather, to shake us awake to who we are. Spiritual armor has been given to us that allows us to weather the most ferocious temptations satan can throw at us and do it with joy. But spiritual armor does us no good until we put it on.

God wants to make us overcomers, victorious over the world, the flesh and the devil. But that will not happen until we refuse to remain content to live out our lives as OUR lives, forgiven but defeated, healed but only slightly.

Romans 7 is not our birthright. But until we long to be delivered from sin and self-love, even as Paul did, we will continue to be shaken until we awake to what God has for us... new natures.

Oh, we have them, but they must be put on. And therein lies the problem. We cannot put them on til we put off our old ones, and that cannot happen until we hate failing our God with our double mindedness, our carnality, our secret sins and our worldliness.

Our God is awakening His own and will pour out His Spirit upon us. The latter rain approaches. Our God will not leave us tossed to and fro as the earth enters its death spiral. As He has promised, God is going to do a work in our day that if our eyes did not see it, we would not believe it.

But first, we must hunger for it. Desperation is the soil where the seeds of faith will germinate. So.... how desperate are we?

blessings,

Gideon

Excellent post!

 

[Earburner]

If one does not have the Spirit of God, they are not part of the church. Yet the Laodecians were most definitely addressed as His children. Lukewarmness was exemplified by the attitude that they had need of nothing, they were quite satisfied to be forgiven with no desire at all to walk pleasing to God.

Just as with another church addressed in Revelation, they had lost their first love. The sin of Laodecia, however went further. They did not care that this was their state. They were content without godliness. And most definitely, they were not seen by the Lord as sinless.

blessings,

Gids

And my point is, not all who are in the churches, are born again Christians, being aka the wheat and the tares, or the sheep and the goats.
Romans 8:8-9 answers that dilemma.

 

[Earburner]

That is not really the case. Verse 17 definitely does not describe the children of God: ...and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

1. God's children cannot be wretched since they have God as their Father.

2. God's children cannot be miserable since they have the Holy Spirit as their Comforter.

3. God's children cannot be poor since they possess all of Christ's riches.

4. God's children cannot be blind, since they have the unction of the Holy Spirit.

5. God's children cannot be naked, since they have the robe of the righteousness of Christ as a robe of fine linen, clean and white.

Excellent post!

 

[mjrhealth]

So if that be the case, and maturity among the saints is rare today, should we not be found beseeching the Lord to pour out upon us the same infilling of the Holy Spirit? If there was a body of believers that were not taught false doctrines and were actually walking in maturity, would they not be like lights in the darkness, drawing hungry believers into the light and shining forth to a very lost and very needy world?

blessings,

Gideon

Those who believe, and I stipulate believe, not the worship with teh mouth but the give my all ones, are already spirit filled, Does that give a man permission to run and do His own thing, even Jesus Himself would never do anything without consulting the father, "eh works i do are the works My Father gave me to do". men love to be seeing to be doing, unwilling to go out into that desert to learn to trust God where you have no one but Him to see you through, Mose 40 years, Jesus waited 30 year than ended up 40 days in the desert, Joseph thrown in a hole by his brothers, imprisoned for doing the right thing before God used them, but in to days world every one wants a following, wants to be seeing not willing to wait for God to finish His work in them, God forbid you wait on God, you become the enemy of the dooers.

You know that bit about, but we did this and we did that, and He sees begone from me you workers of iniquity. Patients is born of God form long stints in that desert place.

God bless

 

[Gideons300]

That is not really the case. Verse 17 definitely does not describe the children of God: ...and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

1. God's children cannot be wretched since they have God as their Father.

2. God's children cannot be miserable since they have the Holy Spirit as their Comforter.

3. God's children cannot be poor since they possess all of Christ's riches.

4. God's children cannot be blind, since they have the unction of the Holy Spirit.

5. God's children cannot be naked, since they have the robe of the righteousness of Christ as a robe of fine linen, clean and white.

Brother, I mean not to offend. However, what you are saying here is the very attitude Laodecia was corrected for. Is it not saying:

"Not us, Lord. We are your children. There is no way we could be seen in such a light! Yes, we are still found willfully sinning. Yes, we lack evidence of your dwelling in our hearts. Yes, the world looks upon us as hypocrites. Yes, we are unburdened for souls to come to know you. Yes, we do not love you with all of our hearts, and do not love others as we love ourselves. But Lord, we said the sinner's prayer. We go to church. We know your Word. We are your children. Our flaws are covered by your grace. Surely these hard words cannot apply to us!"

The main point of this OP was to point out our need to find the reason why all these characteristics of ours still exist in our midst, so that we can be set free indeed from US. But how many there are who cannot even admit that these things are talking about us. And the irony is, simply put, our response is the classic answer that the Laodecians offered.

Why was the early church on fire for God, filled with love and self sacrifice and we are a religious, divided, bickering and confusing mess? If we possess the same spirit as they, why do we languish in religious debate and meaningless excuses for our lack, when they brought forth shouts from unbelievers of "Behold how they love one another!" What is the reason for the disconnect?

It is simply because we have not understood that even though we possess new natures, they must be put on by faith. And in order to do that, we must first come to hate our failings, our willful sin, our cold prayer lives, our lack of love, our very SELF that will never leave willingly.

Guys, we ARE new! Our great need now is to break before the Lord and cry out for the faith to believe that the old carnal self-driven US actually died when Christ died. Only then, when we hate who we have become, can we reach out in desperation and touch the hem of His garment and be given the faith to believe that we are new creatures. Only then can we stand against the accusations and temptations of the enemy and resist him steadfast in the faith, and joyfully watch him flee from us.

We are a stubborn people. But God knows this and will use the coming shakings to uproot us from our denial and complacency to bring us to where we need to be, broken, contrite and humble. He loves us far too much to let us proceed into the ever-increasing darkness without our spiritual armor on. And I pray we see, our new nature IS our spiritual armor! It is there we find rest. It is there we find safety. It is there we find victory. It is there we can abide in the vine and discover to our amazement and joy that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

The counsel given to the Laodecian church is the counsel to us. The gold tried in the fire we are urged to buy is a call to the faith that believes that the old US is truly dead. Not needing to die. DEAD. The white raiment we are urged to put on is our new nature, for only then will the shame of our nakedness not appear.

Repentance is called for, brokenness for our contentedness without fruit, without godly character. And it is this brokenness, this acknowledgement that we ARE Laodecia, that is the eye salve that will allow us to finally see the full depth of the grace of God, that not only grants us forgiveness, but also causes us to be changed into overcomers, fearing nothing, no matter how dark the coming days are to become.

blessings to all,

Gideon

 

[marks]

Indeed it does! And what is it that allows that deliverance? Is it not our death? Do we not see? Even if we died with Christ, even if we were raised to newness of life, the rule of faith applies to us.

".... but it did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

blessings,

Gideon

It's like you count rebirth, being begotten of God, as if it is nothing.

Being born again, this IS our deliverance. God creates us. We do not create ourselves.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The wolves have done a good job.

The wolves . . . who want us to rely on ourselves, and would rob from us the promises of God.

He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.

In these simple words, we can see, that if you have been born again, you will remain born again. It is God who is working in you, making you who you will be. And this work WILL continue throughout our lives.

No matter what the wolves say, we can know these things are true.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The counsel given to the Laodecian church is the counsel to us.

IF in fact you are deluded about yourself. IF you are poor and blind and naked. So here's the question. Is that how you see yourself?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yet the Laodecians were most definitely addressed as His children.

No they were not.

And when you base your conclusion on an error, they too are likely to be in error.

Much love!

 

[quietthinker]

No they were not.

And when you base your conclusion on an error, they too are likely to be in error.

Much love!

Seven Churches are addressed one of which is Laodecia

 

[marks]

Seven Churches are addressed one of which is Laodecia

Yes, that's right. But not all the people in these churches are God's people.

In Pergamos:

Revelation 2:14-15
14) But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15) So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

In Thyatira:

Revelation 2:20
20) Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Are these the children of God? I wouldn't think so myself.

Much love!

 

[Pearl]

Do you think Christians can be too polite to point out the 'weeds' these days?