If you agree completely then why does it seem that what you believe is not what I believe?
Tong
R1557
Hebrews 10:26-31
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Tong
R1557
I think I know what you mean by "practical righteousness", though that's not Biblical terminology.
Biblical terminology would be to say we have both "Imputed Righteousness", which is to say, we have been made righteous. In the case of the NT Christian, this is a declaration of righteousness, God's assertion that we are righteous, and this is also a rebirth into God's righteousness, specifically, having been recreated in God's pattern, both righteous and holy.
The reason only Jesus is the qualified judge of man is at least twofold, one being that the Father decreed it so, the other that He and not we know what's really in the heart. Each of us are a work in process, He is the One Who knows. He knows those who are His.
Much love!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Are you afraid that is a works gospel? It's not. I already showed you where Paul says there is no boast in trusting God. Trusting God and being justified is in direct opposition to working to be justified. I showed you this in the Bible. Trusting God is not the works gospel. Performing works of the law to earn justification is the works gospel.
Ferris, you would do well to avoid putting words into my mouth.
In what post do I say Paul is wrong?
In what post do I say the Bible is wrong?
Well?
And if not . . . what would be appropriate, do you think?
Much love!
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Maybe this can help others see what all true faith entails .
For example many know that if we DENY HIM HE will deny us . But they dont realize what paul knew , what james knew
about what entails true faith .
SO lets show them what paul wrote to timothy .
Remember how Jesus said we are to take care of the poor . A doer of His words .
Now what did paul tell timothy .
But if any does not provide for his own , specially those of his own household , he has DENIED THE FAITH and is even worse than an infidel ..
OH yes . WE sure do deny the faith when we are not DOERS . James was right , paul was write .
They all were correct in what they had wrote to the churches . Let us feast on those bibles daily .
Any particular reason why you depart from the basic meaning of the word? Given that it actually means more along the lines of making something immovable?
Much love!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
The point I do not agree with you on is your assertion that the genuine believer can not stop believing. It's a moot point since what matters is that you believe to the very end. Whether or not you think that's a given does not change this very important teaching in scripture.
You can win the argument about if you can stop believing or not but still be lost for not believing to the very end. Being satisfied that you know the real answer to the question won't save anybody on the day of wrath. Actually believing to the very end will. Let's focus on our major—continuing to believe to the very end. Not on a minor—wondering if you will automatically believe to the very end or not. Excelling in that minor won't save you on the day of wrath. Your theologies won't save you on the day of wrath.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
You're venturing into territory you and others are not ready to tread on yet. I'm purposely avoiding the complete discussion about 'making your calling and election sure'. You're stumbling into it. Maybe you'll see it and I won't have to bring it up.
You portray the continuance of believing as something you have to do, and if you do, you will remain saved.
Faith is given to you by God. If you've chosen to receive Him, trusting Him, God gives you new birth from which you will never die, for the life you live is God's life within you.
It is trust in Jesus that will overcome the sins in your life. I know it may seem counterintuitive, just the same, turning trusting Jesus into a law you MUST KEEP is what brings in the legalism that will lead you to fall from grace into that which you think you must do for yourself.
Yes, for the umpteenth time, those who don't believe, aren't part of God's family.
The most Major thing I think you can come to understand is what Jesus did for you when He died on the cross, and what this life is which is eternal.
Much love!
Guilty by Association is a fallacy that should be beneath you.
You cite a surface similarity between your opponent's assertion, and something commonly held to a negative view, hoping the stain of the Gnostic - who believes something entirely different - will come off on your opponent.
Seriously, I've been endeavoring to have a decent discussion with you, but if you aren't willing to rise above this, and telling me I'm saying the Bible is wrong, stuff like that, I can only assume a decent discussion is something you aren't as much interested in.
Much love!
Easy out.
Don't worry, there's no requirement for you to elaborate. You can have your own "hidden knowledge" . . .
Much love!
There is a saving faith that does not endure to the end (Luke 8:12-13). It saves from sin (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:14); just not from the final destination of hell; because in time of temptation they fall away.
Here, in 1 Corinthians 13:8 and Revelation 19:6, it appears that we have the concept of Irresistible Grace. Let us assume that it is the case therefore.
With the concept of Irresistible Grace comes 1 of 2 doctrines:
1) Limited Atonement, if God does not desire to save every man.
2) Universalism, if God desires to save every man and Irresistible Grace is the reality.
It is not Limited Atonement because God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9); and because He gave Himself as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6); and because Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2); and because He wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).
It is not Universalism because there is a very real hell that people go to (Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:46, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 25:41).
Therefore Irresistible Grace cannot be the reality.
What then, does the love of God never fail to do?
It never fails to give every man a choice of whether he will walk in righteousness and be saved, or else continue in sin and perish in hell. Jesus is the only way by which a man can enter into and keep righteous living.
It's not a moot point. The fact is, the child of God does not die spiritually. Therefore, what is moot is this false hypothetical that the child of God CAN die spiritually.
You place the importance upon your having faith 'to the end', over being in Christ. Do you realize that many people think that they have faith, and even live pretty good lives, but never knew a real and true relationship with Jesus? Never were born again?
People have examplary lives in many cases, they live for their families, they pay their taxes and are nice to others, they don't speed, don't molest, they are good people! People of faith! Or so they think. But they've never been reborn.
The real deal is to be in Christ, and that doesn't end. And to know whether you are in Christ, look at how you love others. Are you patient? Kind? Gentle? Faithful? You know the other key words!
Much love!
The boasting thing is a Red Herring.
Whether you boast or not, reliance in yourself is exclusive of reliance in Christ. If your reliance to be saved is your ability to continue in belief, then you are relying on yourself.
For me, I understand that when I trusted in Him, God begot me brand new, His righteous child, alive with the eternal life of my Father.
It's in knowing this that we are freed from sin. Actually, we are freed from sin in being reborn, whether we know it or not, and therein lies the problem. So many don't realize this. I speak concerning God's children.
The one who still labors under the delusion that their sin has power over them because it still gets the better of them, being in Christ, they will not die, Jesus has given eternal life. Jesus will not reject them, and they lack the power to go back to what they were. You can't just snap your fingers and change your nature of being.
Much love!
The Holy Spirit draws a man without bringing him all the way into the kingdom.
The Holy Spirit enables that man to make a choice either for or against Christ, in the drawing.
It is the terminology of sound doctrine (see 1 John 3:7), along the lines of, for example, hypostatic union.
It may not be a word that is found in the Bible, but the concept is there.
Is this to say that you have hidden knowledge that you believe makes you an elite Christian?
This is how the gnostics believed in the days of the early church.
What makes you think that you are not one of these people?
It’s clear to me that this is not important to you. But I have to say, for the sake of others here who read this thread, one of the reasons why I assert and believe that the genuine believer cannot stop believing is because this is what is in scriptures:
John 8: 30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him. 31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.”
Tong
R1559
Last edited:
How does John 8:30-31 teach that a genuine believer cannot stop believing?
I find it to be saying that abiding in His word is a condition of being a true disciple.
There are many many passages that teach the same.
One of my favorites is in Hebrews 13, keep yourself from from coveteousness, for He has promised, I will never leave you nor forsake you.
. . . for you have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. And when Christ, who is your life, appears, you also will appear with Him in glory.
He will carry us all the way home!
So much love!
This is how.
If you remain in His word, you ARE a true disciple. So what He is saying here, is true disciples remain.
It's like in Hebrews, I forget the reference, You have become a partaker of Christ if you continue firm in your faith to the end. Same word "firm" there, not certain of your faith, but unmoved in your faith. The part I want to highlight is the Perfect Tense of 'have become', showing this is something that happens and remains done.
You have become a partaker of Christ, a once for all thing, if you continue in your faith. If you do not continue in your faith, then you did not become a partaker of Christ. The "continuance of faith" is not what determines whether you will partake of Christ, rather, it shows whether you did or did not actually become a partaker in Christ.
Much love!
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