Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
It's ironic, isn't it?Of course, in your scenario, the blood of Jesus is too weak to sanctify and cleanse the believer...
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It's ironic, isn't it?Of course, in your scenario, the blood of Jesus is too weak to sanctify and cleanse the believer...
It's okay to judge people's behavior. It's how individual believers and the church as a whole are to protect themselves against the leaven and influence of fake believers.If they are the same to you, it is not to me. For me, judging behavior means judging if a certain behavior is good or bad. It is behavior I judge, not the person. Why I do not judge people is, I might be judging wrongly and so sin. I don’t want to be judged wrongly as well. The behavior of a person change. Why a person behaves in a certain way may be because of something which I am not aware of or have no knowledge of.
Not that Paul did that, that it means it could necessarily be done by any Christian or it be made into some doctrine. Paul is an apostle, chosen and hand-picked by the Lord Jesus Himself. He was out establishing the church, specially of the Gentiles. Resting upon him is a great responsibility. That said, it is reasonable to think that he was given not only authority by God, but many gifts, for him to be able to carry out his responsibilities righteously, justly, and truthfully. Another point perhaps is, if Paul was given power to raise the dead and heal the sick, it is not surprising that he could make such judgment over the man with error. But we are not Paul, unless like Paul you were given the authority and ability to judge like so, then you can.
Another reason why I don’t judge and won’t judge any man especially with regards his person, as far as I can resist doing it, is because of this scriptures:
1 Cor.4:3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.
Tong
R1713
There are people mentioned in scriptures who are said to be righteous men but does not have the Holy Spirit.
Both.So, where do you find yourself? In the nation of sheep or goat who are judged? Or among the brethren of Jesus Christ?
Both.Again, do you consider yourself among those judged or among the brethren of Jesus Christ in the passage?
Yes, for the Christian. The criteria is this.....Will there be judgement for the Christian and for which behavior is the criteria?
It's for whether you go into the kingdom of God, or into the lake of fire.If you believe so, is that judgement about hell and heaven, or death and eternal life, or what?
It's important that we know who to consider saved, and who not to consider saved so we can distance ourselves from them and their deceitful, destructive influences.....As I said, as far as I can, what I judge is behavior, not people.
Whatever you say is your intention that you judge people by their behavior, whether they are saved or not, is your concern, not mine. That’s perhaps how you do it, but not me.
Tong
R1717
The word 'deeds' in 1 John 3:12 means 'acts' and it is plural (meaning more than one). Cain's actions were evil, while Abel's were righteous. And so Cain was jealous of Abel and hated and murdered him for it. Kind of like what some people do who grow up in churches that teach holy living but can't/don't live that holy life themselves, for whatever reason. And so they then leave that church to then proclaim that they are actually the righteous ones doing right, while the people in the church they left are the evil, self righteous legalists. Using Cain and Able as a metaphor, they are actually unrighteous Cain but think they are righteous Abel.The only “ Righteous Deed “ That Abel performed was following God’s orders.....which were to offer Him the Shed Blood Of an Innocent. I recommend that you do the same......
Not just for me. It is for every believer. This is what the Bible teaches. Comfort and assurance that you are really saved comes from what you do, not what you say you are.Yes works do matter. And why they matter depends on each person. Like as for you, they matter because for you, they show whether you are saved or not. And that is not at all wrong. For it gives you comfort.
I'm mature enough in the Lord now that righteous works are just a big part of what I do everyday. So I don't have to purposely seek to do righteous works according to the fruit of the Spirit to know if I'm really believing in God for forgiveness and righteousness through Jesus Christ. But, nevertheless, they give me comfort to know that Christ is in my by the Holy Spirit, just as the Bible says they do. The church does not teach this Biblical truth because it has been taught that's a works gospel. And they don't know any better because the vast majority of people in the church are not Berean's.I would guess that you do good works to show yourself that you are saved.
That's because they have not been taught, nor read the word for themselves to know that their works are where the assurance that they have Christ in them by the Holy Spirit comes from.Others have it differently. While they do good works, they don’t really find nor look to find true comfort in them.
Yes, even false religions and false believers gain (false) comfort from that, certain that they are really participating in the promises of God simply because they know about them and are blessed by that knowledge. Little knowing that actually living for God is how you know for sure that you possess and are participating in the promises of God.For their true comfort is in the Lord, in His promises, in His words, in His person.
But how do you know the 'faith' you are drawing comfort from is genuine saving faith? Works show if you have genuine faith or not. James, John, and Paul all warn the church of this truth.It is through faith that true comfort comes to them.
And so they can derive comfort and assurance that they have genuine faith and are really saved, if in fact they really can see God at work in and through them. For it is the "faith that works through love" that justifies, not dead faith. As it is, many people in the church vehemently defend their dead, disobedient, action-less faith and assert that they know for sure they are saved too, despite their dead faith that testifies to the contrary.They consider and see good works and the working of it as the work of God through them.
Please allow me.....That is an interesting thought. Do you have chapter and verse for that?
(other than Cornelius?)
It's okay to judge people's behavior. It's how individual believers and the church as a whole are to protect themselves against the leaven and influence of fake believers.
9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. 10I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 1 Corinthians 5:9-11
15Beware of false prophets.
20 ...by their fruit you will recognize them. Matthew 7:15-20
15If your brother sins against you,c go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’d 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17
This is very plain teaching in the Bible. Don't worry about being wrong about if they are really saved or not (they probably are not). You're not passing judgment as to whether they go to heaven or hell at the judgment. That's not your purview. You're only responsible for protecting yourself and the church against the leaven of fake believers and teachers in this life.
So, the question is....did the word of God do good or evil to Zechariah and Elizabeth?Please allow me.....
5In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah, and whose wife Elizabeth was a daughter of Aaron. 6Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and decrees of the Lord. Luke 1:5-6
I’ll not mention Cornelius anymore then. But is Cornelius not enough to show that there are people mentioned in scriptures who are said to be righteous men but does not have the Holy Spirit?That is an interesting thought. Do you have chapter and verse for that?
(other than Cornelius?)
What both? Kindly please be clear.Both.
Yes, for the Christian. The criteria is this.....Tong2020 said: ↑
Will there be judgement for the Christian and for which behavior is the criteria?
8If you really fulfill the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”c you are doing well. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.10Whoever keeps the whole law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”d also said, “Do not murder.”e If you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom. 13For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:8-13
It's for whether you go into the kingdom of God, or into the lake of fire.Tong2020 said: ↑
If you believe so, is that judgement about hell and heaven, or death and eternal life, or what?
John 5:24 in the version that you have it translated in is in contradiction to 2 Corinthians 5:10.Why do you say and believe that? Don’t you believe these scriptures?
John 5:24“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Tong
R1738
I believe that he is saying that he will both:What both? Kindly please be clear.
Do you think that the word of the Lord did evil to Cornelius, Zechariah, and Elizabeth?I’ll not mention Cornelius anymore then. But is Cornelius not enough to show that there are people mentioned in scriptures who are said to be righteous men but does not have the Holy Spirit?
@Ferris Bueller mentioned Zechariah and Elizabeth. Thanks FerrisB!
Abel. Noah. Job. I guess that should be enough.
Tong
R1736
I did not mean to say only for you. Yes, there are some perhaps who are like you. But there are some also who are not like you, who find true comfort, more than anything else, in the Lord, in His promises, in His words, in His person. That to them is much much more than enough.Not just for me. It is for every believer. This is what the Bible teaches. Comfort and assurance that you are really saved comes from what you do, not what you say you are.Tong2020 said: ↑
Yes works do matter. And why they matter depends on each person. Like as for you, they matter because for you, they show whether you are saved or not. And that is not at all wrong. For it gives you comfort.
Good for you, if that’s the case.I'm mature enough in the Lord now that righteous works are just a big part of what I do everyday. So I don't have to purposely seek to do righteous works according to the fruit of the Spirit to know if I'm really believing in God for forgiveness and righteousness through Jesus Christ. But, nevertheless, they give me comfort to know that Christ is in my by the Holy Spirit, just as the Bible says they do. The church does not teach this Biblical truth because it has been taught that's a works gospel. And they don't know any better because the vast majority of people in the church are not Berean's.Tong2020 said: ↑
I would guess that you do good works to show yourself that you are saved.
I think they are more like you say you are, mature enough in the Lord. It is natural for them to doing good works. And in their maturity, as they walk closer with the Lord, they find true comfort in Him, more than anything else. They’ve outgrown that already.That's because they have not been taught, nor read the word for themselves to know that their works are where the assurance that they have Christ in them by the Holy Spirit comes from.Tong2020 said: ↑
Others have it differently. While they do good works, they don’t really find nor look to find true comfort in them.
No, they don’t. How could false believers and hypocrites find true comfort in Him whom they do not believe or truly believe? If they somehow claim they do, that could be nothing but false comfort, and pretense.Yes, even false religions and false believers gain (false) comfort from that, certain that they are really participating in the promises of God simply because they know about them and are blessed by that knowledge. Little knowing that actually living for God is how you know for sure that you possess and are participating in the promises of God.Tong2020 said: ↑
For their true comfort is in the Lord, in His promises, in His words, in His person.
Firstly, the Christian knows his heart, whether he truly have put faith in Christ. Second, as Peter said, they would know if they are growing in the Spirit. And as they grow towards maturity, faith in them increases. And when they come to maturity, at least to the level that doing good works naturally flows out from them, they learn to find true comfort in the Lord, in His promise, in His words, in His person, more than anything else.But how do you know the 'faith' you are drawing comfort from is genuine saving faith? Works show if you have genuine faith or not. James, John, and Paul all warn the church of this truth.Tong2020 said: ↑
It is through faith that true comfort comes to them.
Perhaps for those still babes in Christ, yes. But for mature ones, I have already explained that they find true comfort in Christ more than anything else.And so they can derive comfort and assurance that they have genuine faith and are really saved, if in fact they really can see God at work in and through them. For it is the "faith that works through love" that justifies, not dead faith. As it is, many people in the church vehemently defend their dead, disobedient, action-less faith and assert that they know for sure they are saved too, despite their dead faith that testifies to the contrary.Tong2020 said: ↑
They consider and see good works and the working of it as the work of God through them.
Faith is validated as being genuine and effectual by the footprints it leaves. Abraham, the father of faith, being the example of that. Along with all the other heroes of faith that James and the author of Hebrews use to illustrate and teach us what the steadfast action of genuine faith looks like.
We need not guess. We can learn from scriptures that it did them good.So, the question is....did the word of God do good or evil to Zechariah and Elizabeth?
I would contend that it did good to them because they were righteous (Micah 2:7).
If indeed they did not have the Holy Spirit, the word of the Lord did good to them even though they did not have the Holy Spirit; the word of the Lord did good to them simply because they were righteous.
: @Tong2020