Hebrews 10:26-31

[Ferris Bueller]

Of course, in your scenario, the blood of Jesus is too weak to sanctify and cleanse the believer...

It's ironic, isn't it?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If they are the same to you, it is not to me. For me, judging behavior means judging if a certain behavior is good or bad. It is behavior I judge, not the person. Why I do not judge people is, I might be judging wrongly and so sin. I don’t want to be judged wrongly as well. The behavior of a person change. Why a person behaves in a certain way may be because of something which I am not aware of or have no knowledge of.

Not that Paul did that, that it means it could necessarily be done by any Christian or it be made into some doctrine. Paul is an apostle, chosen and hand-picked by the Lord Jesus Himself. He was out establishing the church, specially of the Gentiles. Resting upon him is a great responsibility. That said, it is reasonable to think that he was given not only authority by God, but many gifts, for him to be able to carry out his responsibilities righteously, justly, and truthfully. Another point perhaps is, if Paul was given power to raise the dead and heal the sick, it is not surprising that he could make such judgment over the man with error. But we are not Paul, unless like Paul you were given the authority and ability to judge like so, then you can.

Another reason why I don’t judge and won’t judge any man especially with regards his person, as far as I can resist doing it, is because of this scriptures:

1 Cor.4:3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

Tong
R1713

It's okay to judge people's behavior. It's how individual believers and the church as a whole are to protect themselves against the leaven and influence of fake believers.

9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. 10I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 1 Corinthians 5:9-11

15Beware of false prophets.
20 ...by their fruit you will recognize them. Matthew 7:15-20

15If your brother sins against you,c go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’d 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17​

This is very plain teaching in the Bible. Don't worry about being wrong about if they are really saved or not (they probably are not). You're not passing judgment as to whether they go to heaven or hell at the judgment. That's not your purview. You're only responsible for protecting yourself and the church against the leaven of fake believers and teachers in this life.

 

[justbyfaith]

There are people mentioned in scriptures who are said to be righteous men but does not have the Holy Spirit.

That is an interesting thought. Do you have chapter and verse for that?

(other than Cornelius?)

 

[Ferris Bueller]

So, where do you find yourself? In the nation of sheep or goat who are judged? Or among the brethren of Jesus Christ?

Both.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Again, do you consider yourself among those judged or among the brethren of Jesus Christ in the passage?

Both.

Will there be judgement for the Christian and for which behavior is the criteria?

Yes, for the Christian. The criteria is this.....

8If you really fulfill the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”c you are doing well. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.10Whoever keeps the whole law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”d also said, “Do not murder.”e If you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom. 13For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:8-13​

If you believe so, is that judgement about hell and heaven, or death and eternal life, or what?

It's for whether you go into the kingdom of God, or into the lake of fire.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

As I said, as far as I can, what I judge is behavior, not people.

Whatever you say is your intention that you judge people by their behavior, whether they are saved or not, is your concern, not mine. That’s perhaps how you do it, but not me.

Tong
R1717

It's important that we know who to consider saved, and who not to consider saved so we can distance ourselves from them and their deceitful, destructive influences.....

1Now there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow in their depravity, and because of them the way of truth will be defamed. 3In their greed, these false teachers will exploit you with deceptive words. 2 Peter 2:1-3

18With lofty but empty words, they appeal to the sensual passions of the flesh and entice those who are just escaping from others who live in error. 2 Peter 2:18

...contend earnestly for the faith entrusted once for all to the saints. 4For certain men have crept in among you unnoticed—ungodly ones who were designated long ago for condemnation. They turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality, and they deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Jude 1:3-4

19These are the ones who cause divisions, who are worldly and devoid of the Spirit. Jude 1:19​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The only “ Righteous Deed “ That Abel performed was following God’s orders.....which were to offer Him the Shed Blood Of an Innocent. I recommend that you do the same......

The word 'deeds' in 1 John 3:12 means 'acts' and it is plural (meaning more than one). Cain's actions were evil, while Abel's were righteous. And so Cain was jealous of Abel and hated and murdered him for it. Kind of like what some people do who grow up in churches that teach holy living but can't/don't live that holy life themselves, for whatever reason. And so they then leave that church to then proclaim that they are actually the righteous ones doing right, while the people in the church they left are the evil, self righteous legalists. Using Cain and Able as a metaphor, they are actually unrighteous Cain but think they are righteous Abel.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Yes works do matter. And why they matter depends on each person. Like as for you, they matter because for you, they show whether you are saved or not. And that is not at all wrong. For it gives you comfort.

Not just for me. It is for every believer. This is what the Bible teaches. Comfort and assurance that you are really saved comes from what you do, not what you say you are.

I would guess that you do good works to show yourself that you are saved.

I'm mature enough in the Lord now that righteous works are just a big part of what I do everyday. So I don't have to purposely seek to do righteous works according to the fruit of the Spirit to know if I'm really believing in God for forgiveness and righteousness through Jesus Christ. But, nevertheless, they give me comfort to know that Christ is in my by the Holy Spirit, just as the Bible says they do. The church does not teach this Biblical truth because it has been taught that's a works gospel. And they don't know any better because the vast majority of people in the church are not Berean's.

Others have it differently. While they do good works, they don’t really find nor look to find true comfort in them.

That's because they have not been taught, nor read the word for themselves to know that their works are where the assurance that they have Christ in them by the Holy Spirit comes from.

For their true comfort is in the Lord, in His promises, in His words, in His person.

Yes, even false religions and false believers gain (false) comfort from that, certain that they are really participating in the promises of God simply because they know about them and are blessed by that knowledge. Little knowing that actually living for God is how you know for sure that you possess and are participating in the promises of God.

It is through faith that true comfort comes to them.

But how do you know the 'faith' you are drawing comfort from is genuine saving faith? Works show if you have genuine faith or not. James, John, and Paul all warn the church of this truth.

They consider and see good works and the working of it as the work of God through them.

And so they can derive comfort and assurance that they have genuine faith and are really saved, if in fact they really can see God at work in and through them. For it is the "faith that works through love" that justifies, not dead faith. As it is, many people in the church vehemently defend their dead, disobedient, action-less faith and assert that they know for sure they are saved too, despite their dead faith that testifies to the contrary.

Faith is validated as being genuine and effectual by the footprints it leaves. Abraham, the father of faith, being the example of that. Along with all the other heroes of faith that James and the author of Hebrews use to illustrate and teach us what the steadfast action of genuine faith looks like.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

That is an interesting thought. Do you have chapter and verse for that?

(other than Cornelius?)

Please allow me.....

5In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah, and whose wife Elizabeth was a daughter of Aaron. 6Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and decrees of the Lord. Luke 1:5-6​

 

[Tong2020]

It's okay to judge people's behavior. It's how individual believers and the church as a whole are to protect themselves against the leaven and influence of fake believers.

9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people. 10I was not including the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 1 Corinthians 5:9-11

15Beware of false prophets.
20 ...by their fruit you will recognize them. Matthew 7:15-20

15If your brother sins against you,c go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’d 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17​

This is very plain teaching in the Bible. Don't worry about being wrong about if they are really saved or not (they probably are not). You're not passing judgment as to whether they go to heaven or hell at the judgment. That's not your purview. You're only responsible for protecting yourself and the church against the leaven of fake believers and teachers in this life.

<<>It's okay to judge people's behavior. >>>

That’s why I judge the behavior, not the person.

<<<Don't worry about being wrong about if they are really saved or not >>>

And why would I not when judging wrongly is a sin? Should the Christian not worry about that because he’s doing it with good intention? I don’t have such mind.

<<<You're only responsible for protecting yourself and the church against the leaven of fake believers and teachers in this life.>>>

That sounds justifying and a good intention. However, somebody in me tells me not to do that in a way that is against my faith and against good conscience.

Tong
R1735

 

[justbyfaith]

Please allow me.....

5In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah, and whose wife Elizabeth was a daughter of Aaron. 6Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and decrees of the Lord. Luke 1:5-6​

So, the question is....did the word of God do good or evil to Zechariah and Elizabeth?

I would contend that it did good to them because they were righteous (Micah 2:7).

If indeed they did not have the Holy Spirit, the word of the Lord did good to them even though they did not have the Holy Spirit; the word of the Lord did good to them simply because they were righteous.

: @Tong2020

 

[Tong2020]

That is an interesting thought. Do you have chapter and verse for that?

(other than Cornelius?)

I’ll not mention Cornelius anymore then. But is Cornelius not enough to show that there are people mentioned in scriptures who are said to be righteous men but does not have the Holy Spirit?

@Ferris Bueller mentioned Zechariah and Elizabeth. Thanks FerrisB!

Abel. Noah. Job. I guess that should be enough.

Tong
R1736

 

[Tong2020]

Both.

What both? Kindly please be clear.

That you belong to both sheep nation and goat nation, to both sheep nation and brethren of Jesus Christ, or to both goat nation and brethren of Jesus Christ?

Tong
R1737

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Will there be judgement for the Christian and for which behavior is the criteria?

Yes, for the Christian. The criteria is this.....

8If you really fulfill the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”c you are doing well. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.10Whoever keeps the whole law but stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,”d also said, “Do not murder.”e If you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom. 13For judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. James 2:8-13​

Tong2020 said: ↑
If you believe so, is that judgement about hell and heaven, or death and eternal life, or what?

It's for whether you go into the kingdom of God, or into the lake of fire.

Why do you say and believe that? Don’t you believe these scriptures?

John 5:24“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Tong
R1738

 

[justbyfaith]

Why do you say and believe that? Don’t you believe these scriptures?

John 5:24“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Tong
R1738

John 5:24 in the version that you have it translated in is in contradiction to 2 Corinthians 5:10.

There is no contradiction to other scriptures when you read it in the kjv, however.

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[justbyfaith]

What both? Kindly please be clear.

I believe that he is saying that he will both:

1) be judged to be a sheep or goat; and,

2) be a judge of whether others are sheep or goats, if he is judged to be a sheep.

I am pretty certain that he believes he will be judged as being a sheep rather than a goat.

 

[justbyfaith]

I’ll not mention Cornelius anymore then. But is Cornelius not enough to show that there are people mentioned in scriptures who are said to be righteous men but does not have the Holy Spirit?

@Ferris Bueller mentioned Zechariah and Elizabeth. Thanks FerrisB!

Abel. Noah. Job. I guess that should be enough.

Tong
R1736

Do you think that the word of the Lord did evil to Cornelius, Zechariah, and Elizabeth?

Because apparently they were righteous, but did not have the Holy Spirit.

But they walked uprightly; and therefore I believe that the word of the Lord did good to them.

Are you still going to contend that the word of the Lord would not do good to them because they didn't have the Holy Spirit?

Mic 2:7, O thou that art named the house of Jacob, is the spirit of the LORD straitened? are these his doings? do not my words do good to him that walketh uprightly?

 

[justbyfaith]

Another question: is it even possible to walk uprightly without the Holy Spirit?

It seems to me that even the Old Testament prophets had the Spirit of Christ (1 Peter 1:11).

So, Zechariah and Elizabeth may have been included among the Old Testament prophets in that they may have had the Spirit of Christ.

Obviously, Cornelius gave alms to the poor apart from the Holy Spirit; because his introduction to Peter was because he did alms. And he also received the Holy Spirit as the result of Peter's preaching that day.

So that throws a wrench in the works for me.

In Acts of the Apostles 5:32, do we receive the Holy Spirit because we have obeyed or do we obey because we have received the Holy Ghost?

I had always felt that it was the latter.

But apparently, Cornelius received the Holy Ghost as a result of having obeyed; for if he had not obeyed the Lord in giving alms, the angel would not have appeared and told him to call for Peter.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Yes works do matter. And why they matter depends on each person. Like as for you, they matter because for you, they show whether you are saved or not. And that is not at all wrong. For it gives you comfort.

Not just for me. It is for every believer. This is what the Bible teaches. Comfort and assurance that you are really saved comes from what you do, not what you say you are.

I did not mean to say only for you. Yes, there are some perhaps who are like you. But there are some also who are not like you, who find true comfort, more than anything else, in the Lord, in His promises, in His words, in His person. That to them is much much more than enough.

Tong2020 said: ↑
I would guess that you do good works to show yourself that you are saved.

I'm mature enough in the Lord now that righteous works are just a big part of what I do everyday. So I don't have to purposely seek to do righteous works according to the fruit of the Spirit to know if I'm really believing in God for forgiveness and righteousness through Jesus Christ. But, nevertheless, they give me comfort to know that Christ is in my by the Holy Spirit, just as the Bible says they do. The church does not teach this Biblical truth because it has been taught that's a works gospel. And they don't know any better because the vast majority of people in the church are not Berean's.

Good for you, if that’s the case.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Others have it differently. While they do good works, they don’t really find nor look to find true comfort in them.

That's because they have not been taught, nor read the word for themselves to know that their works are where the assurance that they have Christ in them by the Holy Spirit comes from.

I think they are more like you say you are, mature enough in the Lord. It is natural for them to doing good works. And in their maturity, as they walk closer with the Lord, they find true comfort in Him, more than anything else. They’ve outgrown that already.

Tong2020 said: ↑
For their true comfort is in the Lord, in His promises, in His words, in His person.

Yes, even false religions and false believers gain (false) comfort from that, certain that they are really participating in the promises of God simply because they know about them and are blessed by that knowledge. Little knowing that actually living for God is how you know for sure that you possess and are participating in the promises of God.

No, they don’t. How could false believers and hypocrites find true comfort in Him whom they do not believe or truly believe? If they somehow claim they do, that could be nothing but false comfort, and pretense.

Tong2020 said: ↑
It is through faith that true comfort comes to them.

But how do you know the 'faith' you are drawing comfort from is genuine saving faith? Works show if you have genuine faith or not. James, John, and Paul all warn the church of this truth.

Firstly, the Christian knows his heart, whether he truly have put faith in Christ. Second, as Peter said, they would know if they are growing in the Spirit. And as they grow towards maturity, faith in them increases. And when they come to maturity, at least to the level that doing good works naturally flows out from them, they learn to find true comfort in the Lord, in His promise, in His words, in His person, more than anything else.

Tong2020 said: ↑
They consider and see good works and the working of it as the work of God through them.

And so they can derive comfort and assurance that they have genuine faith and are really saved, if in fact they really can see God at work in and through them. For it is the "faith that works through love" that justifies, not dead faith. As it is, many people in the church vehemently defend their dead, disobedient, action-less faith and assert that they know for sure they are saved too, despite their dead faith that testifies to the contrary.

Faith is validated as being genuine and effectual by the footprints it leaves. Abraham, the father of faith, being the example of that. Along with all the other heroes of faith that James and the author of Hebrews use to illustrate and teach us what the steadfast action of genuine faith looks like.

Perhaps for those still babes in Christ, yes. But for mature ones, I have already explained that they find true comfort in Christ more than anything else.

I understand and get youur concern. But you know, those who are born of the Spirit, born of God, will grow in the Spirit unto maturity in the Lord. That’s where they naturally would grow to be. And for him to grow, after feeding with milk, he must feed on meat.

Faith is tested, but not by us. It is God who tests our faith just like He tested Abraham’s. He tests it not that He don’t know if our faith is genuine or not, strong or weak. Rather it is for our sake that God tests our faith. So we see, faith is tested to be proven genuine and sincere, not really by good works, but by being put in a very difficult situation, similar to the cases of Job, Abraham, the apostles, and many others who went through severe persecutions to the point of death. Their faith was proven genuine and sincere in it endured and persevered until their last dying breath.

What would you choose, if you had to choose, would you want God to test your faith like them, or would you rather strive to grow in the Spirit by feeding on God’s words unto maturity?

Tong
R1739

 

[Tong2020]

So, the question is....did the word of God do good or evil to Zechariah and Elizabeth?

I would contend that it did good to them because they were righteous (Micah 2:7).

If indeed they did not have the Holy Spirit, the word of the Lord did good to them even though they did not have the Holy Spirit; the word of the Lord did good to them simply because they were righteous.

: @Tong2020

We need not guess. We can learn from scriptures that it did them good.

But I think it’s not simply because they were righteous. As far as we know, they were righteous. But we don’t know what else is there to it.

Tong
R1740