Hebrews 10:26-31

[Tong2020]

That's what I'm saying. It's a false comfort. But a comfort nonetheless. Unbelievers and fake believers major in this kind of (false) comfort because they go by feelings and thoughts. I have rarely encountered an unsaved person or hypocrite in the church who did not have some kind of comfort that they were 'okay' with God in salvation. They would not be able to derive that sense of (false) comfort if they knew that genuine assurance of salvation comes from a changed life, not from what you feel or think.

<<<But a comfort nonetheless. >>>

What? And you are talking of false believers and hypocrites? Again, how could they find any comfort, much more true comfort, in Him whom they do not believe or truly believe? They got to be not just hypocrites but crazy as well.

Tong
R1752

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Witness of the Holy Spirit in how we act? Can’t quite get that. But here’s what I found in scriptures.

Nobody can see the Holy Spirit. We can only 'see' him in what we do. And so it is in that way that we have the witness of the Holy Spirit in how we act.

24Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him. And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us. 1 John 3:24​

And that witness shows we abide in God, and God in us.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

I'm not discounting the inner witness of the Spirit with our spirit. But as I explained, even many unbelievers and hypocrites say they have this witness inside of them telling them they're 'okay' with God in salvation. Ask any Mormon about that. And, as I also explained, genuine saved believers can cancel the witness of the Spirit in their hearts through guilt feelings, even though they are 110% saved children of God. You have to have more than just knowledge, or the inner witness of the Spirit to have unbiased, genuine assurance of salvation. Your changed life is what gives that.

 

[Tong2020]

But as I showed in a post before this, John talks about the Christian who's heart is condemning them. So, no, not all Christians know if they truly have put faith in Christ. John says the truly saved person overcomes that condemnation of heart by the testimony of their righteous life. Feelings just aren't a good measure of whether or not one is really saved. The evidence of a changed life is the irrefutable assurance that you are really saved, despite what your feelings and thoughts may or may not be assuring you about your salvation.

And I have showed you in my post that salvation is not the context there.

Tong
R1753

 

[Ferris Bueller]

As for me, while I continue in active love, I find true comfort and assurance from Jesus Christ, in His promises, in His words, in His love, in His faithfulness, and as a whole, in His person.

But that's the question we're discussing. How do you know you really have Jesus Christ and his promises? Inner witness is not enough. It can be deceiving as I've pointed out. The whole book of 1 John is devoted to this very topic. He wants this body of believers he's addressing to not be deceived and know who is genuine and who is not, for the Gnostics with their 'spiritual' Jesus have been among them. So it's a whole lesson on how to know who is abiding in Jesus and the Father and who is not......including yourself.

26 I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 1 John 2:26​

7 Little children,d let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.e 8The one who practices sin is of the devil... 1 John 3:7-8

13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13
​

The church says, oh, you know if you or another person is saved by if they say they believe and say they are saved. John says you know if you or another person is saved by how they live. Do not be deceived! He says.

 

[Tong2020]

Nobody can see the Holy Spirit. We can only 'see' him in what we do. And so it is in that way that we have the witness of the Holy Spirit in how we act.

24Whoever keeps His commandments remains in God, and God in him. And by this we know that He remains in us: by the Spirit He has given us. 1 John 3:24​

And that witness shows we abide in God, and God in us.


I'm not discounting the inner witness of the Spirit with our spirit. But as I explained, even many unbelievers and hypocrites say they have this witness inside of them telling them they're 'okay' with God in salvation. Ask any Mormon about that. And, as I also explained, genuine saved believers can cancel the witness of the Spirit in their hearts through guilt feelings, even though they are 110% saved children of God. You have to have more than just knowledge, or the inner witness of the Spirit to have unbiased, genuine assurance of salvation. Your changed life is what gives that.

<<<Nobody can see the Holy Spirit. We can only 'see' him in what we do>>>

If that is the case with you, that you can only see him in what you do or in what others do, what can I say. That’s you.

And I am sure you already know the natural manifestation of the Holy Spirit in a believer is His power, especially in His work in the heart of the person. It manifest Himself in the person as it grows and matures the person in character. In His transforming work of the Christian, from being rude to being gentle, from being unkind to being kind, from being impatient to being patient, from being easily angered to being meek and mild, from being cold hearted to being warm, from being unforgiving to being forgiving, from being dishonest to being honest, from being disobedient to being obedient, and so much more. If you find that change in you and is growing day by day, but you still are not that comforted and assured, then by all means, you have your good works to fill what is lacking.

Now if you are concerned with what’s happening in the inside of others, you can ask them to tell their story and find out. Whether they are truthful or not, that’s another story. But in my view, the change in a person is not my work. If only man can change himself by himself and change another man to be a good and righteous man, that would be great. But it seems that, it is only God who can change the man. The Christian could only bring him the gospel and testify to the truth and love of the only true God.

<<<Ask any Mormon about that.>>>

Why would I ask about that to them? Before I even think of doing that, I’d rather preach the gospel of Jesus Christ according to the scriptures.

If you think that words lie, so do actions and works. Everything that man can take control of can be faked. The only reliable witness that we are children of God is the Spirit that is within us whom God had sealed us with.

As I said, if you are fully convinced in your heart that good works for you is where you are most assured that you are saved, then it is with you.

Tong
R1754

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Matthew 18:15“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like aheathen and a tax collector.

Context. That is not about judging the person concerning his salvation nor judging his behavior. So, if not, then what is the relevance of the passage to what we are talking about?

It’s about church discipline for a sinning brethren who refuses to be corrected.


Tong
R1749

Matthew 18:15-17 definitely is about judging a person who sins against you (vs.15). It is indeed about behavior—unrepentant behavior. And it has everything to do with considering that person to be an unsaved unbeliever (some translations do use the word 'consider' if I'm not mistaken). That's exactly what Jesus tells us to do with such a person. Whether they ultimately really are not is not the essential point (protection from them is), though John makes it very clear that you can in fact without reservation judge a person who lives in unrepentant sin to be an unbeliever. That's just plain scripture.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Look at what you just said, and try to see the heresy..

Here is what you said.......i'll paraphrase.....>"if i do something, i keep myself saved".

"if i hold unto the promise".. then i keep myself saved.

Do you see that you have shifted you faith from Christ, into "self saving by holding unto".
Thats WORKS.

See that?
That is not faith in Christ.
THat is = "as long as i hold on, i keep myself out of hell".

Thats "falling from Grace".

Then I'm in good company. If I am fallen from grace for saying that you are saved if we hold onto the gospel then so is Paul.

1 Corinthians 15:2
2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you.​

Move over Paul! Make room for a fellow heretic, lol!

 

[justbyfaith]

Then let’s go to the translated Greek text:

krisis: a decision, judgment

That is the Greek word used in that verse

But even with your preferred version, it does not change the truth that those who genuinely believe in Jesus Christ will no longer be judged unto condemnation unto death. For they have passed from death to life.

Tong
R1741

The fact remains that they will be placed into judgment; for we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10).

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Wow....So far ( end of 1st half), this Super Bowl is LAME!

Having said that......” Religious” people “Change”. Christians are “ Transformed”......transformed because they , like Abraham, simply BELIEVE a Promise Of God....Thats What Faith is.....that is what Saves...
Anybody can “ change”.....only God can “ TRANSFORM”, and the Onus for all of that Transformation is in God’ s Lap .....” I will FINISH the Work that I STARTED”....
Every ounce of “ Comfort” that I have obtained in this life( and I am talking a life of 100% comfort) comes from simply Believing that God keeps His Word....call me a Lost Fool, But I think God is really gonna be pleased with my approach.....
Yep, when Jesus said that all of those that “Trust in Him ALREADY HAVE Eternal Life and shall NEVER come under Condemnation”....
well——hang me from the highest tree —— I just so happen to Believe Him.....others don’t .

Halftime show? It’s Lame too......lol...

 

[Tong2020]

But that's the question we're discussing. How do you know you really have Jesus Christ and his promises? Inner witness is not enough. It can be deceiving as I've pointed out. The whole book of 1 John is devoted to this very topic. He wants this body of believers he's addressing to not be deceived and know who is genuine and who is not, for the Gnostics with their 'spiritual' Jesus have been among them. So it's a whole lesson on how to know who is abiding in Jesus and the Father and who is not......including yourself.

26 I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 1 John 2:26​

7 Little children,d let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous.e 8The one who practices sin is of the devil... 1 John 3:7-8

13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13
​

The church says, oh, you know if you or another person is saved by if they say they believe and say they are saved. John says you know if you or another person is saved by how they live. Do not be deceived! He says.

Well no matter how I will explain to you. As I already have, I think you will never understand.

<<<How do you know you really have Jesus Christ and his promises?>>>

Faith. If you can’t understand that, I don’t think I can make you understand. For apparently no matter how I have explained it to you, you still don’t get it. If you believe in an unseen and invisible God, and understand why you do, perhaps you will understand when I say, faith is what makes me know that I have Jesus Christ and His promises. That is , if you we have the same understanding of what the writer of Hebrews said of faith, that faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen.

<<<Inner witness is not enough.>>>

If the Holy Spirit is not enough witness for you, and good works fills what is lacking in the Holy Spirit’s witness, I won’t argue on that.

<<<It can be deceiving as I've pointed out.>>>

With the same line of reasoning, so is works. But as for me, what’s on the outside is easily faked, but not what’s in the inside, who is the Holy Spirit.

I understand what John was saying in 1 John. I do see the benefit of looking at the testimony of the external which somehow allows the Christian to have an idea of what is in the inside of another, whether there is falsehood in a person or not. However, I don’t think John was really looking at determining whether another is saved or not with that, but at determining who the false teacher, the false prophet, the hypocrite, the wolf in sheep’s clothing that is working to deceive the church, for whatever evil intent and purpose they have.

But this is how it goes for me. Of course, I do not know if one is a false teacher or a false prophet. So, whenever I come across one who teach and preach, the first thing I do, as it now becomes natural with me, I would examine what they say, teach and preach, if it is the truth or not, by comparing it with scriptures, before looking at anything else. If what they say, teach and preach is not the truth of the gospel of Christ and truth about God, and glorifies self or man and not God or put God and Christ second or on the side, or does not promote or it go against goodness, righteousness, love, faith, hope, and all others that comes from the Holy Spirit, then I have every reason to think of him as a false teacher or a false prophet. His external appearance, his works, for me, comes second.

I find wisdom in what Paul said in verse 18.

Phil.1:18What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.

So, that for as long as Christ is preached, whether some do it in pretense, I rejoice with Paul. But of course, Paul is one who is mature in Christ, and in those early days of the gospel, many are yet babes in Christ, like little children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine. John knows that and being aware also that there are antichrists, even disguised as brethren, out to deceive the church, he told them what they need to know, that they may use such, to fight off deception.

Tong
R1755

 

[Tong2020]

Matthew 18:15-17 definitely is about judging a person who sins against you (vs.15). It is indeed about behavior—unrepentant behavior. And it has everything to do with considering that person to be an unsaved unbeliever (some translations do use the word 'consider' if I'm not mistaken). That's exactly what Jesus tells us to do with such a person. Whether they ultimately really are not is not the essential point (protection from them is), though John makes it very clear that you can in fact without reservation judge a person who lives in unrepentant sin to be an unbeliever. That's just plain scripture.

What is there to judge when you already know that he sinned against you? For me, it is not about judging a person, but about correcting a sinning brother and help him come to repentance.

Tong
R1756

 

[Tong2020]

The fact remains that they will be placed into judgment; for we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10).

If there is any judgment that the child of God will face, and with the truth that the child has passed from death to life, such judgment isn’t one concerning death and life.

Tong
R1757

 

[justbyfaith]

If there is any judgment that the child of God will face, and with the truth that the child has passed from death to life, such judgment isn’t one concerning death and life.

Tong
R1757

Correct. The judgment of God's children has to do with wood, hay, and stubble being consumed by the fire and gold, silver, and precious gems enduring through the fire to become a reward for the believer.

Even in John 5:24 (kjv), the one who is judged shall not come into condemnation.

But that we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to be judged according to what we did in the body, whether good or bad; indicates to me that if we have evil works that we have done that have not been covered or washed away by the blood of Jesus, that we will even be punished for such sins and will go to hell.

Because obviously, the only reason why anyone escapes hell and goes to heaven is because all of their sins have been covered and/or washed away.

If they have been truly "washed away" then there is a sense in which, once they have been washed away, they will not be committed any more by the person in whom those sins have been washed away.

Therefore, 2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv) certainly has a bearing on things as we determine who has been redeemed/forgiven and who has not been redeemed/forgiven.

It should be clear that if anyone has truly been forgiven of their sins, that they have become a new creature in Christ; old things have passed away: behold, all things have become new!...

The old things is the old sinful lifestyle that we used to walk in before we came to the saving knowledge of our Lord and Saviour; the new things is the pure and holy life that we will be living as the result of having been regenerated and renewed on the inside by the Holy Ghost.

In the born again believer, it is not only the outside of the cup and platter that is made clean...in all actuality, the inside of the cup and platter is made clean and the outside is cleansed because the inside is cleansed.

There must be a decision in the heart of the person who has set before them the opportunity to receive salvation. He must decide to relinquish his right to a sinful lifestyle and offer his sins to Jesus Christ so that He can take them away.

He must become willing for the Lord to do the work of entire sanctification within him.

He must turn over his whole life to Jesus in surrender.

He must receive Jesus, not only as Saviour, but as Lord.

It is only when a person receives Jesus as Lord as well as Saviour that he will find himself truly born again.

For in receiving Jesus as Lord and as Saviour, he receives Jesus as the Saviour from his sins (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:14) because he has relinquished his sins to Jesus and the Lord will be faithful to truly wash them away as the man makes the decision to obey the Lord and not commit sins any longer.

Because the man has surrendered his life to Christ's Lordship, Christ is then able to rule over him and he will find that his life is truly being changed through that obedience.

The blood of Jesus washes away his sins and also sanctifies (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29) and cleanses him from all sin (1 John 1:7); as the man falls in love with Jesus because He loved him first (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5).

He becomes filled with the Holy Ghost and as he walks not after the flesh but after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in him (Romans 8:4).

It is a righteousness apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets that it is righteousness indeed (Romans 3:21).

Because the Spirit has come to dwell in him through faith (Galatians 3:14) and as he bears the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that will condemn his behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23): he will find that he is now a law-abiding citizen of the kingdom of heaven through bearing the fruit of the Spirit.

But this comes partially because he has relinquished his right to commit the works of the flesh (in Galatians 5:19-21).

For it is most certainly true that if anyone walks after the Spirit, he will not fulfill the desire of the flesh (Galatians 5:16).

Therefore, in making a commitment to walk after the Spirit, whom the Lord gives to every believer upon conversion, he turns away from walking after the flesh.

This, of course, is what we call repentance in the Bible.

 

[justbyfaith]

It appears to me that @Blood Bought 1953, and a few others here, do deny the true grace of God; calling it a FALSE and PERVERTED gospel.

What is the true grace of God according to scripture?

1Pe 5:10, But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
1Pe 5:11, To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1Pe 5:12, By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.

go to The true grace of God.

 

[Tong2020]

Correct. The judgment of God's children has to do with wood, hay, and stubble being consumed by the fire and gold, silver, and precious gems enduring through the fire to become a reward for the believer.

That’s right. And that’s my point with regards passage you quoted. Our argument is about judgment concerning death and life. So why quote a passage that is about judgment not concerning death and life?

Even in John 5:24 (kjv), the one who is judged shall not come into condemnation.

And again that’s the point why I quoted John 5:24, to show that the Christian will not be under a judgment concerning condemnation to death. I was by that trying to lead you and FerrisB to reconsider the judgment spoken of in Mt.25, because of the truth spoken of in John 5:24.

But that we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to be judged according to what we did in the body, whether good or bad; indicates to me that if we have evil works that we have done that have not been covered or washed away by the blood of Jesus, that we will even be punished for such sins and will go to hell.

Because obviously, the only reason why anyone escapes hell and goes to heaven is because all of their sins have been covered and/or washed away.

If they have been truly "washed away" then there is a sense in which, once they have been washed away, they will not be committed any more by the person in whom those sins have been washed away.

Therefore, 2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv) certainly has a bearing on things as we determine who has been redeemed/forgiven and who has not been redeemed/forgiven.

It should be clear that if anyone has truly been forgiven of their sins, that they have become a new creature in Christ; old things have passed away: behold, all things have become new!...

The old things is the old sinful lifestyle that we used to walk in before we came to the saving knowledge of our Lord and Saviour; the new things is the pure and holy life that we will be living as the result of having been regenerated and renewed on the inside by the Holy Ghost.

In the born again believer, it is not only the outside of the cup and platter that is made clean...in all actuality, the inside of the cup and platter is made clean and the outside is cleansed because the inside is cleansed.

There must be a decision in the heart of the person who has set before them the opportunity to receive salvation. He must decide to relinquish his right to a sinful lifestyle and offer his sins to Jesus Christ so that He can take them away.

He must become willing for the Lord to do the work of entire sanctification within him.

He must turn over his whole life to Jesus in surrender.

He must receive Jesus, not only as Saviour, but as Lord.

It is only when a person receives Jesus as Lord as well as Saviour that he will find himself truly born again.

For in receiving Jesus as Lord and as Saviour, he receives Jesus as the Saviour from his sins (Matthew 1:21, Titus 2:14) because he has relinquished his sins to Jesus and the Lord will be faithful to truly wash them away as the man makes the decision to obey the Lord and not commit sins any longer.

Because the man has surrendered his life to Christ's Lordship, Christ is then able to rule over him and he will find that his life is truly being changed through that obedience.

The blood of Jesus washes away his sins and also sanctifies (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29) and cleanses him from all sin (1 John 1:7); as the man falls in love with Jesus because He loved him first (Luke 7:36-50, 1 John 4:19, Romans 5:5).

He becomes filled with the Holy Ghost and as he walks not after the flesh but after the Spirit, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in him (Romans 8:4).

It is a righteousness apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets that it is righteousness indeed (Romans 3:21).

Because the Spirit has come to dwell in him through faith (Galatians 3:14) and as he bears the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that will condemn his behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23): he will find that he is now a law-abiding citizen of the kingdom of heaven through bearing the fruit of the Spirit.

But this comes partially because he has relinquished his right to commit the works of the flesh (in Galatians 5:19-21).

For it is most certainly true that if anyone walks after the Spirit, he will not fulfill the desire of the flesh (Galatians 5:16).

Therefore, in making a commitment to walk after the Spirit, whom the Lord gives to every believer upon conversion, he turns away from walking after the flesh.

This, of course, is what we call repentance in the Bible.

And what is your point in all of that? What is the relevance of that to our discussion about Mt.25 judgment?

Tong
R1763

 

[justbyfaith]

Now of course, judgment is not the same as condemnation; and it should be readily known that we, as believers, shall come into judgment; but we shall not come into condemnation.

That is the point that I am making.

That John 5:24 is more accurate in the kjv than in some of these versions where it is translated "judgment"...because in those translations it brings John 5:24 into contradiction to 2 Corinthians 5:10 and a few other verses; which tell us that as believers we shall indeed come into judgment.

It is therefore more accurate (as in John 5:24 (kjv)), to say that we "shall not come into condemnation".

For to say that we "shall not come into judgment" is not an entirely biblical statement; although some translations do say it that way. Because there are verses in the Bible that contradict that statement in those Bibles that translate it thusly.

 

[justbyfaith]

And what is your point in all of that? What is the relevance of that to our discussion about Mt.25 judgment?

No point in particular except what you might read in my statements.

I just started talking and didn't want to stop until I was finished with what was on my heart.

Some of what I wrote may be in response to what has been written in some other posts in this thread.

 

[justbyfaith]

Firstly, that is clearly a judgment of nations, not individuals.

Judgment of the nations is ultimately a judgment of the individuals who reside in those nations.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Tong2020,

I believe that the following thread addresses something that you said recently in this thread about Jesus words being only a part of the Old Covenant.

Jesus, a minister to the circumcision (to you).

 

[Tong2020]

Judgment of the nations is ultimately a judgment of the individuals who reside in those nations.

And is it not that the judgment in Mt.25 is about death and life? (Mt.25:46). And is it not that concerning the Christians, that there is no more condemnation to death?

So, who are those of the sheep nation in Mt.25?

@Ferris Bueller

Tong
R1766