HELP, I'M A UNIVERSALIST - CAN SOMEONE BRING ME INTO THE FRESH WATERS OF 'ETERNAL DAMNATIONISM'?

[Zadok]

For me God not willing anyone should perish is a desire which will not come to fruition. In the Lord's prayer Jesus prays "your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Implying his will is not always done on earth.

I understand this is possible because God does not force submission to his will. Those who remain in heaven, submit to his will and are in agreement.

There is also a measure of authority, delegated to man to subdue the earth. This authority was delegated to Satan when Adam and Eve believed him over God and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Christ restored that authority to himself by his obedience to the Father, and none will remain that oppose him in time.

"God works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS WILL" - Eph 1:11 -
"It's NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH or him that runneth, BUT GOD that shows mercy" - Roman 9:16

The Creator of the Universe is kinda creative in that way - he gets His will done.

Try using scripture to back up your assertions.

I Timothy 2
4:Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(Does not say he wills them to be saved, it says WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED).

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(Be patient, in due time, God will show his ransom for all).

 

[Renniks]

The Creator of the Universe is kinda creative in that way - he gets His will done.

Try using scripture to back up your assertions.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
- Matthew 23:37
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
- Daniel 12:2

Woe to them, for they have strayed from me! Destruction to them, for they have rebelled against me! I would redeem them, but they speak lies against me.
- Hosea 7:13

The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.
- Genesis 6:5-6
But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
- Romans 2:5

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
- John 3:36

 

[Zadok]

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
- Matthew 23:37
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
- Daniel 12:2

Woe to them, for they have strayed from me! Destruction to them, for they have rebelled against me! I would redeem them, but they speak lies against me.
- Hosea 7:13

The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.
- Genesis 6:5-6
But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
- Romans 2:5

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
- John 3:36

"Everlasting" in Daniel is the hebrew word, Olam, which does not mean eternal.
Kinda like the greek word Aionious that was falsely translated "Eternal".

GOD SHALL BE ALL IN ALL -
I Cor 15:28

 

[Renniks]

"God works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS WILL" - Eph 1:11 -
"It's NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH or him that runneth, BUT GOD that shows mercy" - Roman 9:16

The Creator of the Universe is kinda creative in that way - he gets His will done.

Try using scripture to back up your assertions.

I Timothy 2
4:Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(Does not say he wills them to be saved, it says WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED).

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(Be patient, in due time, God will show his ransom for all).

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Is God going to force obedience? Where's that in Scripture?

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Is God going to force obedience? Where's that in Scripture?

The Lord does not force us to Love, but grants us the ability to do so. At least, this is my experience as well as that of Paul as he wrote 1 Tim 1:14 . . .

"Oh, how generous and gracious our Lord was! He filled me with the faith and love that come from Christ Jesus."

One element that helps me to understand this, to assist in putting it together (for me), is knowing what the Human Nature is. The Human Nature is defined (by many) as Servant. Adam and Eve were Servants. They weren't internally led by either Satan or the Spirit . . . yet. Instead, they were mere servants, willing to do whatever they're told to do, which is what happened with Adam and Eve.

When the Curse was applied and the Devil became our Father, the Human Nature was ready and willing to serve that Father. And my goodness did I ever serve! When Jesus removes the Sin Nature and replaces it with the Divine Nature, the Human Nature begins to willingly serve that Nature just as it served the Evil, Sinful Nature.

So, if we stripped away our Spiritual Father, be it the Spirit or the Devil, we become mere Servants, ready to perform any task given. But when that Curse is lifted by Christ, and when it is replaced by the Sweet, Holy, Divine Nature . . . boy does it sure feel good to finally understand how to Truly Forgive. Finally, it feels so good to know what it's like to Truly Love my enemies. Amazing it is, to know what it Truly means to have the Love within to Feed my enemies, and to consider others as more important than myself (and that means those who are not saved). Incredibly it is that I can finally come to a forum and no longer engage in emotional banter that involves berating and belittling. I may not be perfect, but when I make this mistake, I will clean it up . . . and did I mention how good it feels to finally become responsible for my errors and wrongful ways?

It seems clear that when God gives us that Divine Nature, the Human Nature once again has something to serve . . . and it gladly serves the Spirit of God more than it wants to serve the Spirit of Satan. This is why Paul taught that when he sinned, that it was not he that doeth, but sin (Nature) living within him. And then after Paul wrote about the Sin Nature that once lived within him in his life as Saul (Romans 7), he later wrote Colossians 2:9-15, where he plainly writes that True Circumcision really is of the Heart, and that this operation conducted by the Spiritual Hands of Christ must take place in order for Salvation to be granted.

2 Peter 1:4 NLT - "And because of his glory and excellence, he has given us great and precious promises. These are the promises that enable you to share his divine nature and escape the world's corruption caused by human desires."

It is a wonderful and amazing thing to be enabled to Love others. I wish that more knew what it actually felt like to Love their enemies. If they did, they'd stop coming here and belittling others. Know what I mean?

 

[Renniks]

is a wonderful and amazing thing to be enabled to Love others. I wish that more knew what it actually felt like to Love their enemies. If they did, they'd stop coming here and belittling others. Know what I mean?

Does loving your enemy's mean agreeing with them? Of course, other believers are not our enemies, wherever they are in their walk. However this is a forum for discussing theology, so there's going to be disagreement.
I disagree that God always gets his way for example. That's not scriptural.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Does loving your enemy's mean agreeing with them? Of course, other believers are not our enemies, wherever they are in their walk. However this is a forum for discussing theology, so there's going to be disagreement.
I disagree that God always gets his way for example. That's not scriptural.

How can one be in agreement with their enemy? Of course, you don't agree, but I am talking about a Holy Love that is implanted into the Hearts of True Jews and Christians. As much as we hurt, with the pain brought on by enemies, our Hearts still burn for them, for they do not know what they are doing. Forgiveness is simple when the Curse has been removed.

 

[Truther]

"God works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS WILL" - Eph 1:11 -
"It's NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH or him that runneth, BUT GOD that shows mercy" - Roman 9:16

The Creator of the Universe is kinda creative in that way - he gets His will done.

Try using scripture to back up your assertions.

I Timothy 2
4:Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(Does not say he wills them to be saved, it says WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED).

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(Be patient, in due time, God will show his ransom for all).

All men have come to the knowledge of the truth, or...

It is the will of God for it.

Men tell God, "not thy will, but MINE be done".

 

[soul man]

He may have bailed or got banned, hasn't been here in a minute. I'm not for sure I would spend much time debating unless you feel it. That's me talking because I don't have that kind of energy haha

 

[Renniks]

How can one be in agreement with their enemy? Of course, you don't agree, but I am talking about a Holy Love that is implanted into the Hearts of True Jews and Christians. As much as we hurt, with the pain brought on by enemies, our Hearts still burn for them, for they do not know what they are doing. Forgiveness is simple when the Curse has been removed.

Oh, of course I love the lost. I don't want to see anyone go into outer darkness for eternity.

 

[Zadok]

All men have come to the knowledge of the truth, or...

It is the will of God for it.

Men tell God, "not thy will, but MINE be done".

Something to ponder upon, isn't it.
You left Ephesians 1:11 out of the mix though - "Who works all things after the counsel of his own will" -
Quite a mystery. Is it possible the Creator of the Universe doesn't live in the box people want to put him in?

 

[Truther]

Something to ponder upon, isn't it.
You left Ephesians 1:11 out of the mix though - "Who works all things after the counsel of his own will" -
Quite a mystery. Is it possible the Creator of the Universe doesn't live in the box people want to put him in?

The Creator is living in a box called "His word".

God's mantra is perfect truth.

He is the architect of perfect truth, so He is boxed in by it.

If He tells a single lie, we all die and God implodes.

The universe is based on truth and perfection, which would implode too.

 

[Zadok]

The Creator is living in a box called "His word".

God's mantra is perfect truth.

He is the architect of perfect truth, so He is boxed in by it.

If He tells a single lie, we all die and God implodes.

The universe is based on truth and perfection, which would implode too.

Profound.
As stated, in the context of this post, God does not live in the box people place him in, thinking they can unravel his mystery for the liberation of creation:
Romans 8:21 The creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;
Wow!! Sounds universalist to me.

BTW, being new here, has Kreisel been convinced of the fresh, cool waters of Eternal Damnationism by anyone yet?

 

[Truther]

Profound.
As stated, in the context of this post, God does not live in the box people place him in, thinking they can unravel his mystery for the liberation of creation:
Romans 8:21 The creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;
Wow!! Sounds universalist to me.

BTW, being new here, has Kreisel has been convinced of the fresh, cool waters of Eternal Damnationism by anyone yet?

Only God can judge.

The problem for us is, if we deem God a liar.

We may find ourselves at the angry end of God's personal thoughts.

You do realize there is an angry side to this perfect God, right?

As a matter of fact, God can hate with a perfect hatred, and love with a perfect love simultaneously.

He is definitely not human.

 

[Renniks]

Profound.
As stated, in the context of this post, God does not live in the box people place him in, thinking they can unravel his mystery for the liberation of creation:
Romans 8:21 The creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;
Wow!! Sounds universalist to me.

BTW, being new here, has Kreisel been convinced of the fresh, cool waters of Eternal Damnationism by anyone yet?

How does this verse confirm universalism? Look at how the chapter begins: "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, "
Who is Paul talking about here? Not every human that ever lived but: "the children of God"

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Yes, the creation will be freed from corruption when those who aren't children of God are cast out. I don't understand where you are getting universalism here?

 

[Zadok]

How does this verse confirm universalism? Look at how the chapter begins: "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, "
Who is Paul talking about here? Not every human that ever lived but: "the children of God"

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Yes, the creation will be freed from corruption when those who aren't children of God are cast out. I don't understand where you are getting universalism here?

First, you need to quote all of Romans 8:1, not just the first portion of it.

Amazing how you add to scripture.

I'm sure Romans 8:21 in its purity, without your commentary, throws you for a loop.

 

[Zadok]

Only God can judge.

The problem for us is, if we deem God a liar.

We may find ourselves at the angry end of God's personal thoughts.

You do realize there is an angry side to this perfect God, right?

As a matter of fact, God can hate with a perfect hatred, and love with a perfect love simultaneously.

He is definitely not human.

No problem for me, as could be inferred by the unsuspecting.
Most within christianity do call God a liar by denying glaringly obvious verses like:
I Timothy 2
4:Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(Does not say he wills them to be saved, it says WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED).

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(Be patient, in due time, God will show his ransom for all).

 

[Truther]

No problem for me, as could be inferred by the unsuspecting.
Most within christianity do call God a liar by denying glaringly obvious verses like:
I Timothy 2
4:Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
(Does not say he wills them to be saved, it says WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED).

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
(Be patient, in due time, God will show his ransom for all).

Another one..."died for the sin of the world".

This means sin ceased or is covered for the Vegas shooter etc??

 

[Zadok]

Another one..."died for the sin of the world".

This means sin ceased or is covered for the Vegas shooter etc??

Hmm, let's see what the Bible says, shall we?
This is a christian forum, right?
II Cor 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Yup, the Vegas shooter too!
Imagine that, Jesus, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.

I John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

These verses just eat the Devil alive, he burns inside.

 

[Truther]

Hmm, let's see what the Bible says, shall we?
This is a christian forum, right?
II Cor 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Yup, the Vegas shooter too!
Imagine that, Jesus, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.

I John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

These verses just eat the Devil alive, he burns inside.

I see, no judgement for the demonic Vegas shooter as he blew the brains out, and ripped the flesh apart of hundreds of innocent concert goers, then blew his own wretched head off. No judgement for the Conneticut shooter that blew the brains out of 5 year olds for his enjoyment.