The Case Against the Trinity

[Wrangler]

You stated:

Father. Son. By definition, not the same.

Incorrect. Here is where you erred at the outset. The Son of the Father, is as eternal as the Father is, by scripture itself:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

There is too much wrong in your posts for me to go through point by point. In typical trinitarian fashion, you suppose figurative language - which can mean anything you want it to mean - supersedes explicit and literal expressions, like the son and father, by definition, are not the same.

Regarding your shot gun Scriptural approach, let me simply say the proper interpretation of John 1:1 is through Deuteronomy 18:15-18. Jesus IS the servant God chose to put His words in fulfillment of prophecy. The Word is not Jesus but the words of God the Israeli's were too afraid to hear.

 

[Wrangler]

I dispute your accusations of idolatry and heresy

I know of no more powerful an idol than to disregard the 1C's use of singular pronoun, and suppose the one God is three. (After all, that is what singular pronoun's attest to, singular, not triad, right?)

That would have been the perfect time for God to say, you shall have no other God before us - like He said in Genesis 2), a triune God consisting of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Noteworthy is the fact that this sentiment is stated nowhere in Scripture! Nowhere does Scripture say God is a trinity and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved. Does this not mean anything to you?

BTW, I did not realize there was a better forum for me to put this thread and am glad the moderators moved it. I did not even realize there was an Unorthodox Doctrine Forum. I look forward to interesting exchanges. Shalom.

 

[friend of]

LORD ≠ Lord.

LORD = almighty God. YHWH.

Lord = many whom fidelity is owed. Lord Vader. Lord Sidious. Lord Voldemort. Lord Cornwallis. First Lord of the Admiralty. Lord David. None are God

Nice semantic argument.

 

[Wrangler]

Repeating this does not make it true. Do you grasp that the 'man is God' thesis does not make a trinity? The Bible does not say Jesus raised himself; it says God raised Jesus. Does this mean anything to you?

Indeed if God set Jesus over ...

You do realize focusing on the 'man is God' thesis does not make the case for 3is1ism, right?

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes they are called teh elect from before the foundation of the world. We were marked by god for salvation prior to creation. All it took was time to get to teh place God already decreed us to be.

Of course I reject the whole Calvinist thing....
Whether it be the elect before the foundation of the world which mean no good you do is of your accord.
Or damned before the foundations of the world where you are punished for something that God has taken ownership for.
Simply foolishness. The Great Puppet Master.

 

[Wrangler]

Nice semantic argument.

Just basic reading comprehension my friend. The LORD said to my Lord = 1 being talking to another.

From what I've seen, trinitarians make all kinds of semantic and logical juxtapositions. Does Jesus sit at the right hand of God?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Justbyfaith says:
I think that you have to face the problem your theology presents when we look at John 17:3.[/Quote\]

There's no problem that I see with John 17:3. This scripture is teaching us Jesus is praying to God saying, this means eternal life they taking in knowledge of you the true God and the one you sent Jesus Christ. So taking in knowledge of two persons is how you get eternal life, the God and Father of Jesus Christ and his Only Begotten Son Jesus.
The hebrew word Elohim is used in the Scriptures with reference to the True God Jehovah to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men. The fact that Angels are said to be god or godlike doesn't make them false gods so why would I believe Jesus to be a false god because he is a god. Jesus said that the judges were gods was he saying they were false gods? It's your reasoning I question justbyfaith.

Justbyfaith says:
Please note that in John 17:3, the Greek word for "and" is "kai" and it can be translated as "even".[/Quote\]

I really don't concern myself with how the word kai can be translated as even. The point is it wasn't, so why is that, I wonder? Another point is that Jesus himself said that he has a Father and God that is our Father and God so I don't think that the word kai should be translated as even at John 17:3.

 

[Wrangler]

The case for the Trinity can be found in posts #1-#6 of the following thread:

True Trinity.

I'm glad you pointed this out. The purpose of this thread is to make the case AGAINST as I figured there might be a thread FOR.

I don't know about you but I like to hear arguments for both sides. In civilized society, especially in court rooms, we don't let one side prevent the other side from making their case by introducing WHATABOUTISM at every turn. To many, I have admitted there are verses that seem to be FOR. It's just that in my learned opinion, there are many, MANY more verses and arguments AGAINST.

Although the Bible was compiled by 4th century trinitarians, it was written by unitarians. This is why the trinity is not even in the Bible, not the word and not the idea. That is a compelling argument against the trinity; there is no there, there.

 

[justbyfaith]

LORD ≠ Lord.

Would you agree that LORD applies to the one we call "God the Father" (Philippians 2:11)?

LORD applies to God; it applies to Jesus' Father; I am certain that you can agree with me on this.

Now, concerning Jesus' Father, it should be clear that He is called Lord (as opposed to LORD) in Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21.

So then, if there is one Lord, and He is the Father, then the Lord = the LORD.

It should also be clear that no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Spirit of truth (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)). And, that Jesus is the Lord is evident in holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).

How then is there only one Lord?

For the Father is the Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21) and Jesus is the Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

But that there is only one Lord is clear in holy scripture (see Ephesians 4:5).

It should also be clear that the distinction between the Father and the Son is primarily and only in the fact that the Father is an eternal Spirit inhabiting eternity; while the Son is that very same Spirit come in human flesh.

They are the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

Lord = many whom fidelity is owed. Lord Vader. Lord Sidious. Lord Voldemort. Lord Cornwallis. First Lord of the Admiralty. Lord David. None are God.

These are all referring to lords; and each can individually be referred to as "a lord".

While no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Spirit of truth (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

so why would I believe Jesus to be a false god because he is a god.

Because there is only one true God; and therefore if He is not the true God He is a false god; if He be a god.

so I don't think that the word kai should be translated as even at John 17:3.

I do.

Although the Bible was compiled by 4th century trinitarians, it was written by unitarians. This is why the trinity is not even in the Bible, not the word and not the idea. That is a compelling argument against the trinity; there is no there, there.

I might be considered to be a Unitarian in that I believe that God is more one than He is three.

However, I am Trinitarian in that I do see a distinction between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; and I am also able to define what those distinctions are.

 

[justbyfaith]

In civilized society, especially in court rooms, we don't let one side prevent the other side from making their case by introducing WHATABOUTISM at every turn.

I was very blessed to hear that Trump was acquitted for it was an answer to the prayers of my wife and I.

 

[Base12]

Nowhere does Scripture say God is a trinity...

Hi Wrangler.

Although the word 'Trinity' is not in my favorite translation (KJV), I believe it is there in the word 'Godhead'...

Romans 1:20
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

The above verse is very profound in that it proves that not only is God a 'Trinity', but the Godhead can actually be quantified scientifically.

I have done it many times in many different ways using both the Old Testament and New.

Heaven and Earth are God's Two Witnesses that we can use to verify Scripture. It's rather fun to do it actually.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi Wrangler.

Although the word 'Trinity' is not in my favorite translation (KJV), I believe it is there in the word 'Godhead'...

Romans 1:20
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

The above verse is very profound in that it proves that not only is God a 'Trinity', but the Godhead can actually be quantified scientifically.

I have done it many times in many different ways using both the Old Testament and New.

Heaven and Earth are God's Two Witnesses that we can use to verify Scripture. It's rather fun to do it actually.

The term Godhead is also used in Colossians 2:9 in the kjv.

 

[Base12]

The biggest Key to understanding the difference between God being One, and God being Three, is to understand this verse...

John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

The Word of God is where all three parts of the Godhead...

• Father
• Word
• Holy Ghost

...are unified into a single Entity.

The Word 'was' God (unified), yet at the same time the Word was 'with' God (separate)...

This Unified Word is like a Software Code that serves as the Framework of our reality...

Hebrews 11:3
"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Again, the verse above is describing the Trinity/Godhead as a Unified Field that we cannot see. It is the 'Invisible God' you describe in your posts. It is One.

The Unified Field breaks into three components to form 'things which are seen'.

 

[Base12]

The term Godhead is also used in Colossians 2:9 in the kjv.

Perfect...

Colossians 2:9
"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Most Christians probably do not even realize that the above verse is describing everything in this Universe.

In other words, the Godhead dwells in all Life and all Matter...

Ephesians 4:6
"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

The 'One God' is the invisible Word of God Unified Field that we cannot see.

Again, the Word of God is the Framework behind all Matter in the Universe. Yes, like a Simulation. God was the first to convey that idea, not the Matrix movie.

This Unified Field manifests as Matter. What the Bible calls the Godhead, we call Atoms...

That is what Romans 1:20 is teaching.

I just released a movie describing all of this in great detail...

 

[Base12]

Regarding the word 'LORD' in the Bible...

If it is the Tetragrammaton being translated, then One must understand what the Tetragrammaton means.

Long story short, the YOD-HEY-VAV-HEY is in fact a Prophecy.

It means "The Word Made Flesh".

Now meditate on that. This is the Old Testament we are talking about!

As we learned from the previous verses, the Word is the 'Three-in-One' Unified Godhead/Trinity.

The Word Made Flesh is Jesus.

Thus...

The YOD-HEY-VAV-HEY is describing Three as One. The Trinity is literally embedded into the Holy Name itself!

 

[Wrangler]

Would you agree that LORD applies to the one we call "God the Father" (Philippians 2:11)?

LORD applies to God; it applies to Jesus' Father; I am certain that you can agree with me on this.

Now, concerning Jesus' Father, it should be clear that He is called Lord (as opposed to LORD) in Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21.

So then, if there is one Lord, and He is the Father, then the Lord = the LORD.

Well, just because we have to follow POTUS, does not mean we do not have to follow the orders of mayors or governors. For theological reasons, you want to pretend there is only one Lord when there are, in fact, many lords. Yet, there is only one LORD God.

The Scriptures you referenced were NOT asserting a lord = LORD, although I agree that is the trinitarian interpretation; the scripture points out for Christians, there is one direct lord, which is Jesus and I agree.

 

[Billy Evmur]

No the Word is the Only Begotten Son of God made flesh/human. It was the Only Begotten Son of God who became human.

That is not what the bible says, you are teaching something different to the bible

The bible says the Word was with God and the Word was God.

 

[Wrangler]

The Word Made Flesh is Jesus.

This has been addressed several times already. Jesus is the son of God - but not God. The Word is the word of God - but not literally God. It is understandable why trinitarians want to use figurative language to take on literal meaning. See Deuteronomy 18:15-18.

 

[amadeus]

You do realize focusing on the 'man is God' thesis does not make the case for 3is1ism, right?

You realize that I am not trying to make that case. I have not been even a nominal trinitarian since I left formal Catholicism more than 40 years ago. The only 'case' I hope to make is the one that God appoints me to make...

 

[Truther]

what drew you toward Unitarianism? (not to be answered in a single post ...) Trinitarians are so captured by their idolatry, they cannot consider anyone accepting Jesus as their Savior while holding there is only one God who is one being/person. Indeed, the emotion behind the 'man is God thesis' is so powerful, many trinitarians fail to recognize that any Bible verse that seems to support this 4th century heresy does nothing to advance the cause of 3is1ism as that would still only be 2.

To answer the question; Trinitarianism was always a detestable abomination to my intellect based on the following pathways of thinking.
A. The 1C. It must be important if God put it first and used singular pronoun and I cannot think of who it would especially apply to more than the Son.
B. Rejection of mysticism/dualism. 1 ≠ 2 ≠ 3. Or 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 and 1 = 1 + 1.
C. Definition, logic, & language. Consider the statement, "Jesus (the son) was raised from the dead by God (the father) to be the first fruits and is our only Mediator to God."

1. Father. Son. By definition, not the same. And son is created by the father. No exceptions to this prerequisite arrangement. If this is not their relationship, then words mean nothing.
2. Jesus said God is greater, more knowledgable & more glorious. By definition, these cannot be one and the same.
3. God incarnate is not prophesied in the OT. It's not even implied in the vast majority of the NT text.
4. The trinity is not in the Bible & Jesus never said to worship a triune God.
5. Subject v object of sentence. Jesus has many titles. Many of them are 'of God.' The umbrella of Bob is not Bob. "I drank from the cup" ≠ "I told my servant to drink from the cup and he drank from it."
6. Raised from the dead means Jesus was acted upon, the object of action by the subject, God. By definition, this is not the same as Jesus rose from the dead, doing the action himself.
7. "First" implies a coming series of like. My first girlfriend was like others that followed. She was not fundamentally different from those that followed. We don't count Apples and Oranges as Apples.
8. A mediator acts between 2 parties. A mediator, by definition, is not also one of the 2 parties he is mediating for.

I like magic, superpowers, etc. However, not even God can violate logic. For instance, He cannot be all-knowing and get lost. He cannot be all powerful and actually suffer & die as Jesus did. He cannot be all holy and sinful. The resurrected Jesus would not say he is going to his God if he were God incarnate for the same reason that one cannot sit on their own right side. This is because in reality contradictions do not exist. I hope that answers the question. View attachment 13365


I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
Galileo Galilei

Biblical unitarianism is wrong, but what draws them is Christendom's failure to explain the many verses by Jesus and the Apostles stating that Jesus, right now, has a God.

Unfortunately, Christendom has no answers to it.

The doctrine of the incarnation was rushed into Christendom like Pelosi rushed Obamacare into law..."got to pass it to see what's in it".