The Case Against the Trinity

[Wrangler]

You lack understanding of who Jesus is! Deut.18:18 is part of the story.

Not part of the story but the fulfillment of the story.

I know who Jesus is and I know who he ain’t. Jesus ain’t God. Jesus prayed to God for strength. Kind of weird if God incarnate did that.

The obvious proof that Jesus is not God is that Jesus died. The story continues because God, in his unitarian nature, raised the lifeless corpse of Jesus. Jesus did not raise himself from the dead.

The resurrected Jesus told Mary he had not yet gone to his God. Jesus has a God. Jesus’ God is my God. He alone is the only God.

Jesus alone is our only mediator to God.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You cannot quantify man's sin, then try to make an argument for the necessity of an omnipotent God to eradicate them.

I can't but there must be trillions for all time. Yes, only God can know allbsins of mankind, and btw, you seemnto miss a very basic concept, Jesus forgives sins, only God can do that and do that for all sins if all time - otherwise, just forgiving past sins would'nt do. He died for sins if people that weren't even born yet. How could He not be Got.

Countless sins have been committed after the crucifixion, clearly no one is counting, nor does Christ's passion have any efficacy over them.

All yours are counted. Have they been washed by His Blood almost 2000 years ago or not?

It's nonsense to say that Christ paid our price which was eternal death, not temporal death for 3 days.

This is one mystery of many thay we will have to find out in eternity. We know in part, but cannot possibly know or understand another spiritual dimension, blind to us. I struggled with that one and let it go.

It makes no sense to understand these expressions by Paul to mean that Christ both created all things, and that he created them for himself - neither for the Father or Holy Spirit. What kind of co-equality is that?
'By him' means 'via him', with him in mind, for him as God's precedential creation.

See, this verse doesn't work with your theology, so of course you must re-interpret it.
The Father gives His Son the glory to do all these things, simply because it pleases Him.
Trying to figure out how and why God operates beyond what is given us is like speculating about what He was doing before He created the universe. Some things are above our ability to conceive. He gives us enough to know. Individually we each are given as much as we can handle. Einstein or Hawkings couldn't figure out how the universe came into existence, they were only given so much information to a point that they were confounded.

God is spirit, no one can see Him, Jesus obviously meant something different, obviously.

Once again, it just doesn't work with your theology, so it must mean something else.

All Christians are exhorted to become one with Jesus and God, in the exact same manner that Jesus is one with God - elementary spiritualism - David & Jonathon were one, man & wife become one, the 3 Musketeers were one.

We are to have a relationship with God, in Christ and share/inherit all that He offers but at no time can I claim that I and the Father are one, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father! Billy Grahamnorbthe Pope would not make that claim.
Could you claim that you are the exact radiance of Gods glory or can anyone else claim they are the exact representation of God's being or can you sustain all things by YOUR powerful words?
Most of us hope to resemble Christ occasionally and strive to be like Him and at moments are but could never claim that we are the radiance of God's glory.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Are you really unaware of the Good News of Jesus Christ, that like him, we are the adopted, chosen elect children of God, who Jesus called us his brothers and sisters?!

Oh my.

Jesus is not adopted. He is the eternal son of God.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

This happened at the juncture of Luke 23:46.

That Jesus was raised bodily from the dead is evident in John 2:19-21.



See 2 Corinthians 5:4 for my take on this. The mortality of Jesus' physical body was swallowed up by life. Jesus did not become unclothed; but He became further clothed. This means that He added His resurrection body to his former physical body when He rose from the dead.

Jesus became a life giving spirit when he was resurrected. This didn't happen at Luke 23:46 this is when Jesus was sacrificed, put to death. What was going on here at Luke 23:46 is that Jesus trusted that his father and God would remember him and resurrect him. There's nothing in the scripture of Luke 23:46 that this is when Jesus became a life giving spirit.[/QUOTE]

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The temple is a habitation of God through the Spirit, Ephesians 2:21-22.

This still isn't saying that Jesus is the cornerstone of the True God.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus became a life giving spirit when he was resurrected. This didn't happen at Luke 23:46 this is when Jesus was sacrificed, put to death. What was going on here at Luke 23:46 is that Jesus trusted that his father and God would remember him and resurrect him. There's nothing in the scripture of Luke 23:46 that this is when Jesus became a life giving spirit.

Jesus did indeed become a life-giving Spirit when His Spirit left His body in Luke 23:46.

Because it should be clear that His body did not become a life-giving Spirit.

In John 2:19-21 (read it), there is the doctrine that Jesus rose bodily from the dead.

This still isn't saying that Jesus is the cornerstone of the True God.

Actually, it does.

Take it or leave it; Jesus is the chief cornerstone of Elohim.

 

[DNB]

The Word was with THE God ( aperson) and the Word was GOD (nature, essence) this is not a poetic form of writing sorry. but that is error.

But this makes no sense according to your interpretation. According to trinitarian theology, God collectively is three, thus the Word is a person of the whole. To say that the Word was with God, a part was with the whole, is absurd language.

God does not have multiple definitions like hang does.

But Word does, clearly. Word can mean the will of God, it can mean the main object of His Word/will (Jesus), it can mean the depiction of who God is (God is His Laws and ordinances, God is love).

And if one does not dissect a sentence etymologically, they hve no way of understanding what is said. we all do ti either on paper or in our minds.

But we don't. Not too often do wee use a dictionary, we understand the majority of things that we read or hear by the context. Even when we don't understand a particular word, or missed something, the context elucidates the meaning of what is being expressed.
Now, I agree, under such enigmatic situations, like the prologue of John, other tools can be necessary to make sure that we don't divert from the author's intent, or come to radical conclusions. But, claiming that the transcendent, invisible God, who lives in unapproachable light, came to earth to be slew by His own creation, is beyond radical. There are just not enough didactic and explicit supporting texts to corroborate such an interpretation, ...which no dogma should be established without.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I know who Jesus is and I know who he ain’t. Jesus ain’t God. Jesus prayed to God for strength. Kind of weird if God incarnate did that.

The obvious proof that Jesus is not God is that Jesus died. The story continues because God, in his unitarian nature, raised the lifeless corpse of Jesus. Jesus did not raise himself from the dead.

GOD is spirit. God became man and so had a duel nature. The man died and rise from The dead. His Spirit did not die.
Now just before Jesus died, He turned tinthe thief next to Him and said today, we will be in Paradise.

The resurrected Jesus told Mary he had not yet gone to his God.

Jesus did not regard His equality with God as something that Wrangler would grasp - that is why he told the Holy Spirit to avoid you and to this day you are disassociated from the Triune God.
Do liberally want to end up like Casper the friendly ghost, floating around without any purpose?
Jesus was one with his Father in Spirit, but as a man, a humble servant, obedient and going about His Father's business. He relinquished His glory and power temporarily and became a man, lower than the angels, het when He was born the angels worshipped Him.

 

[DNB]

Yes He did call Himself Yahweh.

When He declared "Before Abrahma was---Yahweh"
" I and the Father are one"
"Those who see me, have seen the Father"
John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

And even Yahweh called Him Yahweh in Isaiah 44.

And you confuse the fact that when Jesus came to earth, His Father was still in heaven. God the Father is God of God the Son. that is position, but Jesus is equally divine as His Father is! Jesus is not th eFather and the Father is not Jesus but both are equally divine, though have a separate position of exaltation.

And courts will rule in my favor based on what the Word of God says!

Phil. 2:
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Too bad you don't do etymology- for if you did, you would realize this verse says Jesus existed as God with God, Just like John 1:1

Ronald, I cannot say this enough, stop your desperate etymological exegesis, try and apply wisdom, and read the passage in context.
I already explained the meaning of becoming one in the spiritual sense, which is exactly how Christ meant it, as he explained (John 17:21).
Those who have seen me, has NOT seen the Father, for according to trinitarian dogma, the son is never the Father - Jesus meant this in a righteous manner, and a purpose extent.

The Carmen Christi cannot whatsoever apply to man, clearly. The pericope begins with, 'let this be in the mind of you...'
How can any human relate to such a divesting of one's ontology???

Not to mention, what does it mean '...God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God..'? Obviously!
And then why does it lead into ' ...humbled himself amongst other men...', as if this was some noble and costly endeavor? God cannot die, therefore irrespective of what occurs on earth, God has the almighty power to reverse it, or make it all good. There was absolutely no humility on God's part, nor a sacrifice, to do what He did. This is a meaningless request to humans to follow such an example.

The entirety of the pericope are all a bunch of stupid remarks when apparently, the three persons of the Godhead convened to orchestrate such a dynamic. Why would such a contemplation run through the mind of Christ if he was one of the architects of the Atonement?

These are clearly the sentiments of a 1st century man, who's parents explained his birth and who read the Scriptures, and knew that he had a pre-eminence ordained by God. But, to this he did not seek to gain equality with God as a deluded creature, but inextricably finding himself as a man, he humbly remained in the constitution and stature that God gave him, and fulfilled his mission as such.

 

[justbyfaith]

Those who have seen me, has NOT seen the Father,

The Bible actually teaches the opposite (John 14:7-11).

 

[DNB]

Jesus forgives sins, only God can do that and do that for all sins if all time

A sin is only a sin, if God says it is, and these even changed depending on the dispensation. Point is, God can eradicate sin simply because He decides to. So that, if God has allowed a creature, one who loved God with all his heart, mind and soul i.e. perfect, to be judge and ruler over his brothers who couldn't, where is the divine qualification for that?
You're theorizing where it's not required, nor justified.

We are to have a relationship with God, in Christ and share/inherit all that He offers but at no time can I claim that I and the Father are one, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father!

Having seen Christ is tantamount to seeing the purpose of God, - He who accepts me, accepts the one who sent me. The works that he did undeniably reflected the power and glory of the Father, just like every other prophet or miracle worker that lived before him.
Again, we all know what becoming one with another means....

Why are you lacking this spiritual discernment?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

At 1 Corinthians 15 the Apostle Paul is talking about the resurrection. When Jesus walked the earth before his sacrifice, he had a fleshly body. But when he was resurrected, he “became a life-giving spirit” and returned to heaven. Likewise, anointed Christians would be resurrected to spirit life. Paul explained: “Just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.”—1 Cor. 15:45-49.

The Apostle Paul said, "so it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption.” Of course, upon dying, the human body decays and returns to the dust. (Gen. 3:19) So how can it be that a body is “raised up in incorruption”? It looks to me Paul was not speaking of a human who is resurrected to life on earth, such as those raised by Elijah, Elisha, and Jesus. Paul was referring to a person who is resurrected with a heavenly body, that is, “a spiritual one.”—1 Cor. 15:42-44.

At John 2:19-21 I don't believe that it was literally that mortal corruptible body that Jesus was talking about when he said John 2:19-21? These scriptures show he was talking about the temple of his body. Just as the literal temple was not made up of one stone but many, so “the temple of his body” consists of many living stones, with Jesus as the foundation cornerstone, the scriptures say, "you yourselves also as living stones are being built up a spiritual house for the purpose of a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” (1 Pet. 2:4-7) The point is when the True God resurrected Jesus he resurrected him to become the chief cornerstone of the temple of
living stones then under preparation. He immediately appeared to his disciples and lifted them up out of their despondency, built them up spiritually so that they could “offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God”. That this building of “the temple of his body” started then and continued through the years that followed is shown by Peter’s use of the present tense when years afterward he said Christ’s followers “are being built up a spiritual house”. So when Jesus said, "in three days I will raise it up.” I can see how he did start giving attention to the building up of the temple of living stones after his resurrection on the third day of his death.
So I'll leave it Justbyfaith, because Jesus isn't the chief cornerstone of the True God.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus forgives sins, only God can do that

Not according to the Bible. In the Bible, the Apostles could also forgive sins. Why are you not claiming the Apostles are also God?

 

[Wrangler]

The Bible actually teaches the opposite (John 14:7-11).

Like many trinitarians, you lack discernment between literal and figurative speech. For instance, when God said Adam and Eve will die if they eat the forbidden fruit, they lived about ~9 more centuries. Certainly, this is not the normal meaning one conveys, like eating poison.

And when Jesus talked about rebuilding the temple in 3 days, the hearers understood the temple took 70 years to build. Obviously, it is absurd to suppose what took 70 years can be duplicated in 3 days.

Getting back to the point of sight. No one can literally see God because God is literally Spirit. Like the wind, you can see its effects but not see the wind itself.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Like many trinitarians, you lack discernment between literal and figurative speech. For instance, when God said Adam and Eve will die if they eat the forbidden fruit, they lived about ~9 more centuries. Certainly, this is not the normal meaning one conveys, like eating poison.

And when Jesus talked about rebuilding the temple in 3 days, the hearers understood the temple took 70 years to build. Obviously, it is absurd to suppose what took 70 years can be duplicated in 3 days.

Getting back to the point of sight. No one can literally see God because God is literally Spirit. Like the wind, you can see its effects but not see the wind itself.

They did die (spiritually). They died physically 900 years later

that’s why we all must be born again

so times you have to determine in context what is said,

the temple Jesus spoke of also was his body,

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is not adopted. He is the eternal son of God.

What does, "You are my son. Today, I have become your father" mean if not adoption? You do not know the Good News of Jesus, Anointed by God. It saddens me how ignorant Christians are of their own faith, not grasping what Paul wrote about our inheritance. Thank You, Father, as You have made us eligible to receive our portion of the inheritance given to all those set apart by the light. Colossians 1:12 (Voice)

You are not denying that Jesus is included in 'all,' set apart by the light of God, the Father, are you? We believers are all adopted by God. And the saints are all eternal. Jesus is no longer the only son of God. Like all first borns, Jesus was the only (adopted) son.


32 We are here to bring you the good news of God’s promise to our ancestors, 33 which He has now fulfilled for our children by raising Jesus. Consider the promises fulfilled in Jesus. The psalmist says, “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father."
Acts 13:32-33 (Voice)

18 God was at work in all this, fulfilling what He had predicted through all the prophets—that the Anointed One would suffer. 19 So now you need to rethink everything and turn to God so your sins will be forgiven and a new day can dawn, days of refreshing times flowing from the Lord. 20 Then God may send Jesus the Anointed, whom God has chosen for you. 21 He is in heaven now and must remain there until the day of universal restoration comes—the restoration which in ancient times God announced through the holy prophets. 22 Moses, for example, said, “The Eternal One your God will raise up from among your people a prophet who will be like me. You must listen to Him."
Acts 3:18-22 (Voice)

Peter, an emissary of Jesus the Anointed One, to God’s chosen people
1 Peter 1:1 (Voice)

 

[Wrangler]

They did die (spiritually).

They did die but what you put in parentheses is not in the text. It is so typical of trinitarians to read what is not there. I honestly believe they do not even realize it. What you put in parentheses is what makes the text figurative. Isn't that what we are talking about here, literal versus figurative language?

so times you have to determine in context what is said

Again, sometimes what is said in context is figurative. Trinitarians take it out of context and assert it has literal meaning. When someone says, 'they are so hungry, the could eat a horse,' is that figurative or literal?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

They did die but what you put in parentheses is not in the text. It is so typical of trinitarians to read what is not there. I honestly believe they do not even realize it. What you put in parentheses is what makes the text figurative. Isn't that what we are talking about here, literal versus figurative language?

It does not have to be in the text, unless God lied, and he did not die, he literally died the moment he ate of the tree, we can discern that since he did not die physically, he did die spiritually. Add this to the fact we must be born again because we are all born dead, ad we have a spiritual truth. Not a made up trith

Again, sometimes what is said in context is figurative. Trinitarians take it out of context and assert it has literal meaning. When someone says, 'they are so hungry, the could eat a horse,' is that figurative or literal?

Adam died spiritually, that is a fact, not. Figurative speach

when the God of Israel told Israel to come close and listen, that he did not hold back from the beginning, and how the father and spirit sent him,(Isaiah 48) is this figurative speach? I do not think so.

 

[Wrangler]

Adam died spiritually, that is a fact, not. Figurative speach

Is English your first language?

Can you admit there are any figurative expressions in the Bible?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Is English your first language?

Can you admit there are any figurative expressions in the Bible?

Yes, he never denied this

we are talking about if Adam died or not

can you admit the Moment he ate if the tree he died spiritually and it was not figurative language?