The Case Against the Trinity

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Wrangler

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can you admit the Moment he ate if the tree he died spiritually and it was not figurative language?

No. Your complex question has an implied premise which I reject. It was figurative language (and an example of God lying among many examples. See 1 Kings 22:20-23.)

When I tell my teenager to be home by 11 PM and she inserts an adjective, claiming she did by coming home at 11 PM - PST instead of EST, we got some word games going on in a pathetic attempt to skirt the truth! When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, the simple truth is that they did not die as God said in plain language they would.

Regarding the desperate attempt to pretend God did not lie, by inserting the word "spiritual" before death, it defies the plain language of the text. It is like there is no reading comprehension, general expressions cannot later to taken to be specific only. Death means and includes all death, and most significantly physical death. "I'll be faithful in marriage" is taken primarily to be physically faithful. A philandering husband won't get much empathy from his wife by claiming he meant spiritually faithful only, and therefore, did not violate his vows.

It is pure speculation that they spiritually died. Furthermore, where do you get the idea that these 1st 2 humans were ever spiritually alive to begin with? Adam and Eve were never born, let alone born again, born of the spirit. It is revealing that before the fall of man, God's perfect creation was not all good. See Genesis 1:18.

If you want to get all technical or sophisticated about it, you could say God withheld immortality due to their disobedience. However, this is a punishment, not a natural result of eating nonpoisonous fruit.

Don’t add anything to what I command you, and don’t take away anything from it
Deuteronomy 4:2 (Voice)

And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition.
Mark 7:13 (NLT)

 

Eternally Grateful

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No. Your complex question has an implied premise which I reject. It was figurative language (and an example of God lying among many examples. See 1 Kings 22:20-23.)

When I tell my teenager to be home by 11 PM and she inserts an adjective, claiming she did by coming home at 11 PM - PST instead of EST, we got some word games going on in a pathetic attempt to skirt the truth! When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, the simple truth is that they did not die as God said in plain language they would.

Regarding the desperate attempt to pretend God did not lie, by inserting the word "spiritual" before death, it defies the plain language of the text. It is like there is no reading comprehension, general expressions cannot later to taken to be specific only. Death means and includes all death, and most significantly physical death. "I'll be faithful in marriage" is taken primarily to be physically faithful. A philandering husband won't get much empathy from his wife by claiming he meant spiritually faithful only, and therefore, did not violate his vows.

It is pure speculation that they spiritually died. Furthermore, where do you get the idea that these 1st 2 humans were ever spiritually alive to begin with? Adam and Eve were never born, let alone born again, born of the spirit. It is revealing that before the fall of man, God's perfect creation was not all good. See Genesis 1:18.

If you want to get all technical or sophisticated about it, you could say God withheld immortality due to their disobedience. However, this is a punishment, not a natural result of eating nonpoisonous fruit.

Don’t add anything to what I command you, and don’t take away anything from it
Deuteronomy 4:2 (Voice)

And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition.
Mark 7:13 (NLT)
Then we can not agree

if Adam did not die God is a liar.

Good day sir
 

Ronald Nolette

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What does, "You are my son. Today, I have become your father" mean if not adoption? You do not know the Good News of Jesus, Anointed by God. It saddens me how ignorant Christians are of their own faith, not grasping what Paul wrote about our inheritance. Thank You, Father, as You have made us eligible to receive our portion of the inheritance given to all those set apart by the light. Colossians 1:12 (Voice)

And it saddens me how arrogant my brethren can be because I don't wish to walk in lock step with their exact way of saying things! Yes I do know the Good news of Jesus.

In case you forgeot- Jesus was conceived in Mary's Womb by God so He is is only natural son. Jesus left heaven and emptied himself to become the hypostatic God/man. So sorry we are adopted into teh family- Jesus is the heir apparent!


You are not denying that Jesus is included in 'all,' set apart by the light of God, the Father, are you? We believers are all adopted by God. And the saints are all eternal. Jesus is no longer the only son of God. Like all first borns, Jesus was the only (adopted) son.

Sorry but gods Word says Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son. the rest are adopted!

The rest of your posted paraphrased verses, I have no clue as to why you post them.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Not according to the Bible. In the Bible, the Apostles could also forgive sins. Why are you not claiming the Apostles are also God?
People can forgive someone who sinned against them but that is not the same as what Christ did by His blood.
 
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justbyfaith

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At 1 Corinthians 15 the Apostle Paul is talking about the resurrection. When Jesus walked the earth before his sacrifice, he had a fleshly body. But when he was resurrected, he “became a life-giving spirit” and returned to heaven.

John 2:19-21 indicates that Jesus rose bodily from the dead three days after He died.

The church was not born until the day of Pentecost, that was 53 days after the death of Christ.

At John 2:19-21 I don't believe that it was literally that mortal corruptible body that Jesus was talking about when he said John 2:19-21? These scriptures show he was talking about the temple of his body. Just as the literal temple was not made up of one stone but many, so “the temple of his body” consists of many living stones, with Jesus as the foundation cornerstone, the scriptures say, "you yourselves also as living stones are being built up a spiritual house for the purpose of a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” (1 Pet. 2:4-7)

In John 2:19-21 the temple that Jesus is speaking of, in context, is His physical, human body that He was dwelling in that moment; that singular human body that was Jesus' flesh and bones.

And when Jesus talked about rebuilding the temple in 3 days, the hearers understood the temple took 70 years to build. Obviously, it is absurd to suppose what took 70 years can be duplicated in 3 days.

He was speaking of the temple of His singular, physical, human body.

Sorry but gods Word says Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son. the rest are adopted!

Actually, we are also begotten (1 Peter 1:3).
 

Ronald David Bruno

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A sin is only a sin, if God says it is, and these even changed depending on the dispensation. Point is, God can eradicate sin simply because He decides to. So that, if God has allowed a creature, one who loved God with all his heart, mind and soul i.e. perfect, to be judge and ruler over his brothers who couldn't, where is the divine qualification for that?
You're theorizing where it's not required, nor justified.


Having seen Christ is tantamount to seeing the purpose of God, - He who accepts me, accepts the one who sent me. The works that he did undeniably reflected the power and glory of the Father, just like every other prophet or miracle worker that lived before him.
Again, we all know what becoming one with another means....

Why are you lacking this spiritual discernment?
Sometimes, but I have the Holy Spirit dwelling in me to set me straight when I do get off track.
This is why we need to be born again, baptized in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit! ;)
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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John 2:19-21 indicates that Jesus rose bodily from the dead three days after He died.

The church was not born until the day of Pentecost, that was 53 days after the death of Christ.



In John 2:19-21 the temple that Jesus is speaking of, in context, is His physical, human body that He was dwelling in that moment; that singular human body that was Jesus' flesh and bones.



He was speaking of the temple of His singular, physical, human body.



Actually, we are also begotten (1 Peter 1:3).

Well I don't agree with those who take things out of context just to prove what they believe. In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul is speaking about the resurrection. You want to take a chapter out of context to prove what you believe, go ahead. I'm not going to agree with taking scripture out of context to prove a belief.
 

justbyfaith

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Well I don't agree with those who take things out of context just to prove what they believe. In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul is speaking about the resurrection. You want to take a chapter out of context to prove what you believe, go ahead. I'm not going to agree with taking scripture out of context to prove a belief.
I have been taking those scriptures in context; you have been taking them out of context.

In context, John 2:19-21 indicates that Jesus rose bodily from the dead; and that is the bottom line.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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True monotheists believe the same, ...but in a more accurate sense!
I think DNB stands for DID NOT get BAPTIZED in the name of the Father and in the name of the Son and in the name of the Holy Spirit!
I do not believe you have spiritual discernment. You remind me of those college educated members of the Jesus Seminar, who anaylize the Bible as if it is just another literary book that one diciphers by mere textual critism, hermeneutics and leaning on your own intellect. How can you have the Holy Spirit if you do not believe HE is GOD, A person? And did you ask for Him? Not believing that Jesus is God is a disgrace to Him, putting Him on a lower level, (not really God, just a man who served a purpose and got promoted). Promoted to having all authority in heaven and on earth? Only God can handle that. You are either blind or in denial of His true nature and glory and therefore how could you worship Him in His true LIGHT - in a prideful struggle, warring against what you think is a massive error committed by billions for almost 2000 years. All His qualities are exactly the same His Father's. His radiance/light is the radiance/light of God, not a reflection. We are reflections, that is not the exact representation of God. Some scholars have claimed Jesus is on every page of the Bible. Now why would God the Father glorify a man this way? The Bible would read much differently, it would not focus on Jesus but all in His Father.
But you go ahead and spend your life trying to convince 95% of the Body of Christ that they got it wrong. It is an exercise in futility.
 
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Wrangler

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Sorry but gods Word says Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son. the rest are adopted!

Aren't the rest of us ALSO begotten of God's Spirit? Isn't that what it means to be born again?

Jesus calls us brothers, not some lower rank than he, but brothers. God calls us his children. It's so funny that trinitarians suppose there is equality of God and Jesus, when Jesus, Himself, says there is not but that God is greater than he, then deny equality between us and Jesus, when Jesus, Himself, says we are equally sons, equally his brother.


Anyone who obeys my Father in heaven is my brother or sister or mother.
Matthew 12:50 (CEV)

Consider the kind of extravagant love the Father has lavished on us—He calls us children of God! It’s true; we are His beloved children. And in the same way the world didn’t recognize Him, the world does not recognize us either.
1 John 3:1 (Voice)
 

DNB

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I think DNB stands for DID NOT get BAPTIZED in the name of the Father and in the name of the Son and in the name of the Holy Spirit!
I do not believe you have spiritual discernment. You remind me of those college educated members of the Jesus Seminar, who anaylize the Bible as if it is just another literary book that one diciphers by mere textual critism, hermeneutics and leaning on your own intellect. How can you have the Holy Spirit if you do not believe HE is GOD, A person? And did you ask for Him? Not believing that Jesus is God is a disgrace to Him, putting Him on a lower level, (not really God, just a man who served a purpose and got promoted). Promoted to having all authority in heaven and on earth? Only God can handle that. You are either blind or in denial of His true nature and glory and therefore how could you worship Him in His true LIGHT - in a prideful struggle, warring against what you think is a massive error committed by billions for almost 2000 years. All His qualities are exactly the same His Father's. His radiance/light is the radiance/light of God, not a reflection. We are reflections, that is not the exact representation of God. Some scholars have claimed Jesus is on every page of the Bible. Now why would God the Father glorify a man this way? The Bible would read much differently, it would not focus on Jesus but all in His Father.
But you go ahead and spend your life trying to convince 95% of the Body of Christ that they got it wrong. It is an exercise in futility.
THere is no glory in the trinity.
Three all powerful persons, in one being, is the epitome of redundancy, when it only requires one to create and maintain the universe, and answer all the prayers of mankind.
Having the almighty, transcendent God, who resides in unapproachable light, come to earth to be abused and killed by His own creation, in order to obey His own law, so that He can propitiate Himself, is the epitome of blasphemy, and utterly devilish wisdom and jurisprudence.
Claiming that belief in the trinity is requisite for salvation, when not one single definitional terminology appears in the Bible (trinity, triune, incarnate, hypostatic union, god-man, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, three-in-one, two natures, ...) , is definitively, misguided and corrupt eisegesis.
Not to mention that not one of your leading proponents have ever been able to explain, what you all just concluded. Diabolical nonsense.

One cannot be saved as a trinitarian, Ronald!
 

Eternally Grateful

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THere is no glory in the trinity.
Three all powerful persons, in one being, is the epitome of redundancy, when it only requires one to create and maintain the universe, and answer all the prayers of mankind.
Having the almighty, transcendent God, who resides in unapproachable light, come to earth to be abused and killed by His own creation, in order to obey His own law, so that He can propitiate Himself, is the epitome of blasphemy, and utterly devilish wisdom and jurisprudence.
Claiming that belief in the trinity is requisite for salvation, when not one single definitional terminology appears in the Bible (trinity, triune, incarnate, hypostatic union, god-man, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, three-in-one, two natures, ...) , is definitively, misguided and corrupt eisegesis.
Not to mention that not one of your leading proponents have ever been able to explain, what you all just concluded. Diabolical nonsense.

One cannot be saved as a trinitarian, Ronald!
One can not study scripture and come to this conclusion that there is no trinity, the trinity or at least two members have been seen since creation, when God said let US creat man in OUR Image

while believing it is not a prerequisite, neither is the opposite,
 
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