Where is hell? Where is heaven?

[Truther]

And our God knows more than both of us combined. He is certainly the one to follow!

The only one...

 

[amadeus]

As I tell all my classes of adults,
1 Right living comes from right thinking
2. Right thinking comes from right knowledge
3. right knowledge comes from he word of God!

While that sounds good, don't forget to mention the lead of the Holy Spirit! Without that all of our study as per the II Tim 2:15 verse you posted could end up here:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

 

[Nancy]

While that sounds good, don't forget to mention the lead of the Holy Spirit! Without that all of our study as per the II Tim 2:15 verse you posted could end up here:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

Hi John!
This is why I do not concern myself on "memorization", as...The Holy Spirit will bring ALL things to our mind when need be.

John 14:26
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
God bless brother

 

[Dcopymope]

But then 1948 sounds so good as it is described by many teachers and preachers, does it not? People's ears are tickled. Are our ears, yours and mine and those of everyone on this forum, embracing that which supports us in a own defined comfort zone instead of continuing to seek His face? How many are really as close or closer to God than was Moses when he was not allowed to see the face of God? If we are not, why not?

It just shows how clever Satan is, VERY clever. Jeremiah says God, and God alone restores the health of Zion, the descendants of Jacob, "for whom no one cares" in chapter 30:17. But according to the 1948 fraud, and the so called "Church", everyone cares for Zion. Its easy to see the deception that has occurred, to see what is happening once you know who the true people are, and who the people aren't. And one reason why those imposters in Jerusalem are pushed as true Israel so much by the whole world, is because Satan knows that those who don't acknowledge who the real Hebrew Israelites are and cling to them as a people will get left behind in the second exodus in Revelation 7.

(Isaiah 14:1-3) "For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. {2} And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors. {3} And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,"

This is one of many scriptures about clinging to Israel as a people, not to Jesus. Jesus came to deliver Israel first, and then the gentile from spiritual captivity in sin, but he is only coming for the house of Jacob to rescue them from PHYSICAL captivity, the captivity they have endured the last 400 years among all the nations in which they were taken as slaves. You may or may not be saved through grace, but it doesn't save you from the seven trumpets, as clearly shown in Revelation. Only belief in the true descendants of Jacob, his people, will give you a chance to not have to endure that. And, in case you have to hear it from your own skin folk, there are plenty of white people that believe the people known as "negroes", "African" are the true descendants. A man named Dana Stevens is one, as well as the dude in the video below. I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't important to prophecy concerning the gentile believer, because time is running short. Whether or not this is what God wants me to do with all this new found knowledge isn't even my concern honestly, I'm just doing it.

(Revelation 13:10) "He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

If you don't want to have to reap what your ancestors have sowed, then your only way out is through and by the house of Jacob. Forget everyone else on this website. You're better off leaving them to their confusion, in this caldron of foolishness called the "evangelical, denominational church".

The TRUE Hebrew Israelites defined by Scripture and history:

 

[amadeus]

Hi John!
This is why I do not concern myself on "memorization", as...The Holy Spirit will bring ALL things to our mind when need be.

John 14:26
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."
God bless brother

Amen Sister! When I back slid in the 1990's I forgot most of the scripture I once knew by heart. Today I cannot quote John 3:16 just to be doing it. But... when I am led by the Spirit I know what to say and/or when I need a specific verse of scripture I will know where it is located in the Bible. That is God leading me. That I fail at times reminds that I am still a fallible human. I emphasize a lot Not quenching the Spirit, but it does not take much to distract us to where are doing it again and following our own lead instead of His.

Can you imagine what kind of nation this would be if everyone claiming to be Christian never quenched the Holy Spirit?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

While that sounds good, don't forget to mention the lead of the Holy Spirit! Without that all of our study as per the II Tim 2:15 verse you posted could end up here:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

Those books are extra biblical books, but not the Word of God. As David said it is his meditation day and night!

Well I love
telling people that the Holy Spirit is the founder of GIGO! He will not lead apart from using the Word in teh unique situations of life and He can only use what is in! Garbage In, Garbage out! If we refuse to study to show ourselves approved, then we are servants of limited use in the kingdom. That is our responsibility.

 

[amadeus]

It just shows how clever Satan is, VERY clever. Jeremiah says God, and God alone restores the health of Zion, the descendants of Jacob, "for whom no one cares" in chapter 30:17. But according to the 1948 fraud, and the so called "Church", everyone cares for Zion. Its easy to see the deception that has occurred, to see what is happening once you know who the true people are, and who the people aren't. And one reason why those imposters in Jerusalem are pushed as true Israel so much by the whole world, is because Satan knows that those who don't acknowledge who the real Hebrew Israelites are and cling to them as a people will get left behind in the second exodus in Revelation 7.

I have heard of this before, but not having understood a lot of the details very well I appreciated the video you shared which brought some of it into better focus... Understanding such things as possibilities [I don't know them to be more than that] may help a person gain a better vision of the whole of God's plan. That there are different races or tribes or peoples or nations in the OT shows me some of the types or shadows of the Reality of God and His plan.
Were the natural children of Jacob which includes Jesus dark skinned? Probably, but I don't know that for certain either...

People have often presumed and/or accepted that their own own group [church or denomination or race or tribe or nation] is running out in front of the pack on their way to a Land or Heaven promised to them. Taking hold of that too quickly as an absolute because it pleases them that their own group is the chosen one may stifle or even stop them from continuing to search for His kingdom and His righteousness... from seeking His face. We must all continue to work while it is Day.

Being part of one of those groups rather than another may help the individual along the way, but simply being a member guarantees nothing. A mixed multitude of Jews and others were led out of slavery in Egypt, but of the men only Caleb and Joshua continued all the way into their Promised Land. We are not better than that mixed multitudes because of our DNA line or the color of our skin or the citizenship in the USA or any other place.

People find a satisfaction in their OSAS stand, but to me that undermines or circumvents the purpose of our allotted time here as men subject to temptations. It is not over until our course is finished which for most of us will be when the dirt is shoveled over our faces.

Zion is a 'parched place', a place lacking in water and without water there is death. There are at least two kinds of water and at least two deaths spoken about in scripture. The encounter between Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well shows us the two waters. There is the natural water [H20] in the well essential to carnal or physical life and there the Living Water of which Jesus spoke. Without the former carnal man dies. Without the latter, the Living Water, the new man cannot Live. Jesus brought the Real Life that men had lacked since Adam and Eve were put out of the Garden of Eden. We might consider then an old Zion and a new Zion... the new one filled with the water lacking in the old one.

This is one of many scriptures about clinging to Israel as a people, not to Jesus. Jesus came to deliver Israel first, and then the gentile from spiritual captivity in sin, but he is only coming for the house of Jacob to rescue them from PHYSICAL captivity, the captivity they have endured the last 400 years among all the nations in which they were taken as slaves. You may or may not be saved through grace, but it doesn't save you from the seven trumpets, as clearly shown in Revelation. Only belief in the true descendants of Jacob, his people, will give you a chance to not have to endure that. And, in case you have to hear it from your own skin folk, there are plenty of white people that believe the people known as "negroes", "African" are the true descendants. A man named Dana Stevens is one, as well as the dude in the video below. I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't important to prophecy concerning the gentile believer, because time is running short. Whether or not this is what God wants me to do with all this new found knowledge isn't even my concern honestly, I'm just doing it.

Well I am not a rapture believer and expect to endure whatever comes my way, be it evil or good, until my allotted time has expired. In the physical I would be a gentile, but in the spiritual I hope to be whatever God has for me. How high? That is according to God's judgement, but what I do, with what God provides, does, as I believe it, make the difference for me. The only limit as to 'how high', for me, is me, because for God there is no limit. We all do limit God even as the people in the OT limited Him:

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

If you don't want to have to reap what your ancestors have sowed, then your only way out is through and by the house of Jacob. Forget everyone else on this website. You're better off leaving them to their confusion, in this caldron of foolishness called the "evangelical, denominational church".

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." I Sam 15:2-3

"Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" Matt 18:7

As an individual [being already 77 years old] my final end or judgement may arrive before any Amalekite type of judgement against people who have offended others unnecessarily... such the slave traders and/or owners treatment of enslaved peoples.

Who is innocent or who is guilty? The only one always innocent among men was Jesus. If I am guilty of offenses, as I certainly am, I look only to my Lord for any mercy He may extend to me. In the interim, between now and the end of my course, can I do other than all that I can... and then ask that He provide, if He will, any difference required?

"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." Rom 9:15

Jesus lets us know that we may ask of Him... so long as we do not ask amiss... and receive what we ask:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt 7:7-8

"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." James 4:3

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have heard of this before, but not having understood a lot of the details very well I appreciated the video you shared which brought some of it into better focus... Understanding such things as possibilities [I don't know them to be more than that] may help a person gain a better vision of the whole of God's plan. That there are different races or tribes or peoples or nations in the OT shows me some of the types or shadows of the Reality of God and His plan.
Were the natural children of Jacob which includes Jesus dark skinned? Probably, but I don't know that for certain either...

People have often presumed and/or accepted that their own own group [church or denomination or race or tribe or nation] is running out in front of the pack on their way to a Land or Heaven promised to them. Taking hold of that too quickly as an absolute because it pleases them that their own group is the chosen one may stifle or even stop them from continuing to search for His kingdom and His righteousness... from seeking His face. We must all continue to work while it is Day.

Being part of one of those groups rather than another may help the individual along the way, but simply being a member guarantees nothing. A mixed multitude of Jews and others were led out of slavery in Egypt, but of the men only Caleb and Joshua continued all the way into their Promised Land. We are not better than that mixed multitudes because of our DNA line or the color of our skin or the citizenship in the USA or any other place.

People find a satisfaction in their OSAS stand, but to me that undermines or circumvents the purpose of our allotted time here as men subject to temptations. It is not over until our course is finished which for most of us will be when the dirt is shoveled over our faces.

Zion is a 'parched place', a place lacking in water and without water there is death. There are at least two kinds of water and at least two deaths spoken about in scripture. The encounter between Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well shows us the two waters. There is the natural water [H20] in the well essential to carnal or physical life and there the Living Water of which Jesus spoke. Without the formal carnal man dies. Without latter, the Living Water, the new man cannot Live. Jesus brought the Real Life that men had lacked since Adam and Eve were put out of the Garden of Eden. We might consider then an old Zion and a new Zion... the new one filled with the water lacking in the old one.


Well I am not a rapture believer and expect to endure whatever comes my way, be it evil or good, until my allotted time has expired. In the physical I would be a gentile, but in the spiritual I hope to be whatever God has for me. How high? That is according to God's judgement, but what I do, with what God provides, does, as I believe it, make the difference for me. The only limit as to 'how high', for me, is me, because for God there is no limit. We all do limit God even as the people in the OT limited Him:

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41



"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." I Sam 15:2-3

"Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!" Matt 18:7

As an individual [being already 77 years old] my final end or judgement may arrive before any Amalekite type of judgement against people who have offended others unnecessarily... such the slave traders and/or owners treatment of enslaved peoples.

Who is innocent or who is guilty? The only one always innocent among men was Jesus. If I am guilty of offenses, as I certainly am, I look only to my Lord for any mercy He may extend to me. In the interim, between now and the end of my course, can I do other than all that I can... and then ask that He provide, if He will, any difference required?

"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." Rom 9:15

Jesus lets us know that we may ask of Him... so long as we do not ask amiss... and receive what we ask:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." Matt 7:7-8

"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." James 4:3

YOu sound a truly humble and piopus person. I mean that in sincrity. I would just ask you add to that intense Bible Study to know what God has for you!

OSAS is the way of God. Why? so we no longer need focus onourself, but look unot Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.

It is not a license to sin, but a license to live holy!

 

[BarneyFife]

I'm sorry You can't hear what I'm saying DNB. As I said earlier, it's no mystery to me but it seems it is to you...unfortunately.
I also don't find the need to fit into someone else's categorisation about these things.

Well, that's because the real question, as always, is not "What are you talking about," but "What are you," so I know what to call you and where to go to copy-and-paste a response to what "you people" always say. Other such popular, labeling questions include "Are you a Christian Patriot or are you a communist, leftist, unpatriotic, gun-seizing, baby-murderer?" Not saying @DNB ever asks this question, but it is the same kind of treatment that is common wherever "Christians" gather to communicate with each other on the Interweb.

 

[amadeus]

Those books are extra biblical books, but not the Word of God. As David said it is his meditation day and night!

Extra biblical books?

So you do not believe that God inspired men to write even 39 Old Testament books? What I cited to you was from the writings of Solomon. Jesus said this of Solomon:

"The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here." Luke 11:31

What I have seen in the writings of Solomon are good ways for carnal men to live as they are able: Ecclesiastes, Proverbs and Song of Solomon.

But Solomon also writes of the ways that are beyond any carnal man alone, the impossible things for example:

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." Prov 3:5-7

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." Ecc 12:13

Peter confirms that many of these things are beyond mortal/carnal man alone:

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:10

Jesus and Paul however show that there is a way for men to do the impossible:

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col. 1:27

Well I love
telling people that the Holy Spirit is the founder of GIGO! He will not lead apart from using the Word in teh unique situations of life and He can only use what is in! Garbage In, Garbage out! If we refuse to study to show ourselves approved, then we are servants of limited use in the kingdom. That is our responsibility.

Men have always been consuming garbage starting with Adam and Eve. They still are today... including many who carry the label of Christian.

I do not believe that study alone leads to truth! Study alone by a carnally directed mind, even a mind on the order of the brain of Einstein, goes to the verse I quoted from Solomon.

"...much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

Study is necessary as the verse you cited states to be approved of God, but Not to obtain truth. Study when led by the Holy Spirit may lead us to truth, but this is the verse you should be quoting here:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

 

[BarneyFife]

Ok, so then you are all annihilists, no problem,

Congratulations on retaining your sanity while successfully pigeon-holing 3 of your fellow Christians.

I've seen the arguments or proof-text for annihilism, yes, in an isolated context, they can be construed as such. But, I don't believe that, comprehensively speaking, they define the doctrine on this issue.

It's odd that you only seem comfortable disagreeing with labels and not ideas.

"Can anything good come out of Nazareth?"

By the way, the word(s) you're looking for are/is annihilationist/annihilationism. The word "annihilist/annihilism" do not really exist except in the world of art/fantasy (although I'm sure Webster will eventually cave--after all, "irregardless" now means the same thing as "regardless,' although Grammarly seems to choke on it). A nihilist is a person who believes that nothing matters, and everything leads to destruction.

And, finally, it's good to have on record your opinion of the issue/doctrine.

Pay no attention to this. It's just another one of my mindless posts.

 

[amadeus]

YOu sound a truly humble and piopus person. I mean that in sincrity. I would just ask you add to that intense Bible Study to know what God has for you!

OSAS is the way of God. Why? so we no longer need focus onourself, but look unot Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.

It is not a license to sin, but a license to live holy!

I appreciate the sincerity of your words, but when I back slid in the early 1990s [don't change the subject by trying telling me now that I was not saved in the 1st place] I had been involved in very intense Bible study for years already, reading and studying for long hours to somehow attain to the place where I thought Enoch must have been to be translated [Gen 5:24, Heb 11:5]. I was wrong to believe that my brain or any man's brain could get me there by any amount of study. After 10 years God took me back to Him but only after going through a severe chastisement I won't describe at the moment.

That was in 2002. I have returned to my Bible studies, but no longer depending upon my brain which was failing me in the natural already anyway. The simple way to see what I have seen is to understand why Peter already walking on the top of the water toward Jesus began to sink and why and how he was then saved in that moment. Did Peter walk on water after that? He most certainly did! Peter's experience describes my own.

 

[BarneyFife]

I'm glad you believe in the eternal Hell fire! Jesus did.

I'm not so glad to see that eternal torment seems to be the thrust of your message (even in your signature).

Sad

 

[BarneyFife]

I appreciate the sincerity of your words, but when I back slid in the early 1990s [don't change the subject by trying telling me now that I was not saved in the 1st place] I had been involved in very intense Bible study for years already, reading and studying for long hours to somehow attain to the place where I thought Enoch must have been to be translated [Gen 5:24, Heb 11:5]. I was wrong to believe that my brain or any man's brain could get me there by any amount of study. After 10 years God took me back to Him but only after going through a severe chastisement I won't describe at the moment.

That was in 2002. I have returned to my Bible studies, but no longer depending upon my brain which was failing me in the natural already anyway. The simple way to see what I have seen is to understand why Peter already walking on the top of the water toward Jesus began to sink and why and how he was then saved in that moment. Did Peter walk on water after that? He most certainly did! Peter's experience describes my own.

Very good stuff, my friend.

 

[Philip James]

No, I am saying that before Revelation, no one had the full picture of how end times events were to play out, not even Jesus

Then you retract your statement that Jesus was wrong?

Even the timing of the Day of the Lord is completely different than when Jesus said it'd occur

Peace be with you!

 

[BarneyFife]

Extra biblical books?

So you do not believe that God inspired men to write even 39 Old Testament books? What I cited to you was from the writings of Solomon. Jesus said this of Solomon:

"The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here." Luke 11:31

What I have seen in the writings of Solomon are good ways for carnal men to live as they are able: Ecclesiastes, Proverbs and Song of Solomon.

But Solomon also writes of the ways that are beyond any carnal man alone, the impossible things for example:

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." Prov 3:5-7

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." Ecc 12:13

Peter confirms that many of these things are beyond mortal/carnal man alone:

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:10

Jesus and Paul however show that there is a way for men to do the impossible:

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col. 1:27



Men have always been consuming garbage starting with Adam and Eve. They still are today... including many who carry the label of Christian.

I do not believe that study alone leads to truth! Study alone by a carnally directed mind, even a mind on the order of the brain of Einstein, goes to the verse I quoted from Solomon.

"...much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

Study is necessary as the verse you cited states to be approved of God, but Not to obtain truth. Study when led by the Holy Spirit may lead us to truth, but this is the verse you should be quoting here:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

More very good stuff, John.

 

[BarneyFife]

Then you retract your statement that Jesus was wrong?



Peace be with you!

I'm trying to figure out how He could have been wrong when He Himself claimed He didn't know.

 

[DNB]

Well, that's because the real question, as always, is not "What are you talking about," but "What are you," so I know what to call you and where to go to copy-and-paste a response to what "you people" always say. Other such popular, labeling questions include "Are you a Christian Patriot or are you a communist, leftist, unpatriotic, gun-seizing, baby-murderer?" Not saying @DNB ever asks this question, but it is the same kind of treatment that is common wherever "Christians" gather to communicate with each other on the Interweb.

Will you two @quietthinker @BarnyFife weirdos just knock it off with your idle nonsense?
I was asking if any of you, with your cryptic comments, were annihilists, for no other reason than to try understand what ultimate point that you were all trying to make. If you were, I would comprehend that your remarks were in rebuttal to what I had spoken to with amadeus. If you were not, then I would justifiably conclude that you are all just a bunch of trolls.
Now that Backlit finally clarified, after 3 or 4 posts, I still think that you're just a bunch of trolls.
Just saying!

 

[DNB]

Congratulations on retaining your sanity while successfully pigeon-holing 3 of your fellow Christians.

It's odd that you only seem comfortable disagreeing with labels and not ideas.

"Can anything good come out of Nazareth?"

By the way, the word(s) you're looking for are/is annihilationist/annihilationism. The word "annihilist/annihilism" do not really exist except in the world of art/fantasy (although I'm sure Webster will eventually cave--after all, "irregardless" now means the same thing as "regardless,' although Grammarly seems to choke on it). A nihilist is a person who believes that nothing matters, and everything leads to destruction.

And, finally, it's good to have on record your opinion of the issue/doctrine.

Pay no attention to this. It's just another one of my mindless posts.

...and to think, I thought that I was slightly harsh on my last post to you, apparently not!

 

[quietthinker]

Jesus did ask those who were not open to his purposes, 'why don't you understand what I am saying? I guess it's because they had their own agenda and were not willing to let anything get between them and it. We have an expression epitomising that determination, 'over my dead body'......and Jesus says to them a little down the track, 'hereafter you will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven'