Calvinism vs. Arminianism

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,997
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Where does the Bible say Christ died for all? That all are able to be saved? Where does it say that?
I will direct your attention to John Calvin's commentary on John 1:29, where Calvin is unable to say anything other than the fact that Christ died for all men -- for the sins of the whole world (although he denied this in his theology):

"Behold the Lamb of God. The principal office of Christ is briefly but clearly stated; that he takes away the sins of the world by the sacrifice of his death, and reconciles men to God. There are other favors, indeed, which Christ bestows upon us, but this is the chief favor, and the rest depend on it; that, by appeasing the wrath of God, he makes us to be reckoned holy and righteous. For from this source flow all the streams of blessings, that, by not imputing our sins, he receives us into favor. Accordingly, John, in order to conduct us to Christ, commences with the gratuitous forgiveness of sins which we obtain through him.

By the word Lamb he alludes to the ancient sacrifices of the Law. He had to do with Jews who, having been accustomed to sacrifices, could not be instructed about atonement for sins in any other way than by holding out to them a sacrifice. As there were various kinds of them, he makes one, by a figure of speech, to stand for the whole; and it is probable that John alluded to the paschal lamb. It must be observed, in general, that John employed this mode of expression, which was better adapted to instruct the Jews, and possessed greater force; as in our own day, in consequence of baptism being generally practiced, we understand better what is meant by obtaining forgiveness of sins through the blood of Christ, when we are told that we are washed and cleansed by it from our pollutions. At the same time, as the Jews commonly held superstitious notions about sacrifices, he corrects this fault in passing, by reminding them of the object to which all the sacrifices were directed...

Who taketh away the sin of the world. He uses the word sin in the singular number, for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said, that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone.

But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to him. John the Baptist, therefore, by speaking generally of the sin of the world, intended to impress upon us the conviction of our own misery, and to exhort us to seek the remedy. Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith...

...But John leads us back to Christ alone, and informs us that there is no other way in which God is reconciled to us than through his agency, because he alone takes away sin. He therefore leaves no other refuge for sinners than to flee to Christ; by which he overturns all satisfactions, and purifications, and redemptions, that are invented by men; as, indeed, they are nothing else than base inventions framed by the subtlety of the devil..."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Heart2Soul

reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2019
4,618
1,481
113
Somewhere in the USA
reformedtruths.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I will direct your attention to John Calvin's commentary on John 1:29, where Calvin is unable to say anything other than the fact that Christ died for all men -- for the sins of the whole world (although he denied this in his theology):

"Behold the Lamb of God. The principal office of Christ is briefly but clearly stated; that he takes away the sins of the world by the sacrifice of his death, and reconciles men to God. There are other favors, indeed, which Christ bestows upon us, but this is the chief favor, and the rest depend on it; that, by appeasing the wrath of God, he makes us to be reckoned holy and righteous. For from this source flow all the streams of blessings, that, by not imputing our sins, he receives us into favor. Accordingly, John, in order to conduct us to Christ, commences with the gratuitous forgiveness of sins which we obtain through him.

By the word Lamb he alludes to the ancient sacrifices of the Law. He had to do with Jews who, having been accustomed to sacrifices, could not be instructed about atonement for sins in any other way than by holding out to them a sacrifice. As there were various kinds of them, he makes one, by a figure of speech, to stand for the whole; and it is probable that John alluded to the paschal lamb. It must be observed, in general, that John employed this mode of expression, which was better adapted to instruct the Jews, and possessed greater force; as in our own day, in consequence of baptism being generally practiced, we understand better what is meant by obtaining forgiveness of sins through the blood of Christ, when we are told that we are washed and cleansed by it from our pollutions. At the same time, as the Jews commonly held superstitious notions about sacrifices, he corrects this fault in passing, by reminding them of the object to which all the sacrifices were directed...

Who taketh away the sin of the world. He uses the word sin in the singular number, for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said, that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone.

But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to him. John the Baptist, therefore, by speaking generally of the sin of the world, intended to impress upon us the conviction of our own misery, and to exhort us to seek the remedy. Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith...

...But John leads us back to Christ alone, and informs us that there is no other way in which God is reconciled to us than through his agency, because he alone takes away sin. He therefore leaves no other refuge for sinners than to flee to Christ; by which he overturns all satisfactions, and purifications, and redemptions, that are invented by men; as, indeed, they are nothing else than base inventions framed by the subtlety of the devil..."
Ok where in that does it specifically state all individuals? It's not there.
 

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2018
16,831
25,511
113
Buffalo, Ny
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Denies that the gospel makes any “offer” of Christ, salvation, or mercy to the non-elect (or denies that the offer of divine mercy is free and universal), OR

I'm curious why "offer" is in quotes.

;)

It seems like an artificial distinction to me. You're a "hyper-Calvinist" if you don't think the "offer" of salvation is to all, except, the Calvinist view is that only those selected by God for salvation will be saved. It make the "offer to all" disengenuous, deceptive, and God does not lie.

Much love!

I've read of certain hyper-Calvinists refusing to evangelize. And, from my 3 years at that church, I saw nothing at all like calls to the alter for prayers of salvation and never once did I hear the pastors or elders say "God loves you"...they themselves were not at all loving or accepting unless believing what they do, you WILL get shunned. It is sad that they believe God only loves "some". :(
 

reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2019
4,618
1,481
113
Somewhere in the USA
reformedtruths.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I've read of certain hyper-Calvinists refusing to evangelize. And, from my 3 years at that church, I saw nothing at all like calls to the alter for prayers of salvation and never once did I hear the pastors or elders say "God loves you"...they themselves were not at all loving or accepting unless believing what they do, you WILL get shunned. It is sad that they believe God only loves "some". :(
Do you believe God loves everyone equally? If you do, please point to the Scriptural support for it.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,663
21,743
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I've read of certain hyper-Calvinists refusing to evangelize. And, from my 3 years at that church, I saw nothing at all like calls to the alter for prayers of salvation and never once did I hear the pastors or elders say "God loves you"...they themselves were not at all loving or accepting unless believing what they do, you WILL get shunned. It is sad that they believe God only loves "some". :(
While I see plenty of exceptions, still, the meanest and angriest Christians I know tend to be Reformed. The happiest Christians I know tend to be pre-trib.

Much love!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2018
16,831
25,511
113
Buffalo, Ny
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
While I see plenty of exceptions, still, the meanest and angriest Christians I know tend to be Reformed. The happiest Christians I know tend to be pre-trib.

Much love!
Definitely agree with the first part, as I lived it. From things I read, there is kind of a trend now that Calvinism attracts the "intelligent". Like God actually really puts stock in that...NOT! lol.

I was pre-trib for a long time but over the years have changed my views and not tend more toward either mid or post. But, that is for a whole nother subject, haha! And, of course pre-trib proponents would be happier if believing they will be whisked away from Satan's persecution..."till the end..." :)
Love you bro!
 
  • Like
Reactions: marks

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,663
21,743
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Interesting, I am Reformed AND pre-trib.... Meanest and angriest? Not really. We just aren't care-free and sloppy with Scripture.

While I don't recommend becoming 'sloppy', just the same, 'carefree' is much to be desired!

Casting ALL your cares on Him, for He cares for you!

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,663
21,743
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you believe God loves everyone equally? If you do, please point to the Scriptural support for it.
Not that I have any illusions here . . .

Just the same . . .

Why did Jesus weep over Jerusalem?

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,663
21,743
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Not that I have any illusions here . . .

Just the same . . .

Why did Jesus weep over Jerusalem?

Much love!

Do you think God doesn't love those who reject Him? Why did Jesus weep over Jerusalem?

You frame your question in the same way as someone who says, Show me the verse that says God is a Trinity.

Of course the words, "God loves everyone equally" don't appear in the Bible, and I'm sure you know that.

So do you want an answer or not?

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,663
21,743
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yeah I'm not going to chase Red Herrings that's typical deflection from someone who knows they are beaten.
That's OK. I can take the other side of the conversation. There is really only one conclusion, one answer. Which you seem quite allergic to.

OK.

Why did Jesus weep over Jerusalem?

Answer: Because Jesus knew their rejection of Him, and He knew what it was going to cost Him, and He wept for those He loved. Even though they rejected Him. Even knowing all they would do to Him!

Because He loved them! Even though they rejected Him.

Next Question . . . Why does God, through Paul, urge everyone to be reconciled to God?

You don't have to answer this either.

Much love!
 

reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2019
4,618
1,481
113
Somewhere in the USA
reformedtruths.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you think God doesn't love those who reject Him? Why did Jesus weep over Jerusalem?

You frame your question in the same way as someone who says, Show me the verse that says God is a Trinity.

Of course the words, "God loves everyone equally" don't appear in the Bible, and I'm sure you know that.

So do you want an answer or not?

Much love!
I am asking for Scriptural support that God loves everyone equally.
 

reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2019
4,618
1,481
113
Somewhere in the USA
reformedtruths.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That's OK. I can take the other side of the conversation. There is really only one conclusion, one answer. Which you seem quite allergic to.

OK.

Why did Jesus weep over Jerusalem?

Answer: Because Jesus knew their rejection of Him, and He knew what it was going to cost Him, and He wept for those He loved. Even though they rejected Him. Even knowing all they would do to Him!

Because He loved them! Even though they rejected Him.

Next Question . . . Why does God, through Paul, urge everyone to be reconciled to God?

You don't have to answer this either.

Much love!
Neither of these are relevant to my original question to you. I'm not going down rabbit trails that have nothing to do with what we are discussing.
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,663
21,743
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am asking for Scriptural support that God loves everyone equally.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son."

There is a certain love, that as God has this love, He gives His Son. This love is for the world. No distinction. Equal.

Much love!
 

marks

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2018
33,663
21,743
113
SoCal USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I am asking for Scriptural support that God loves everyone equally.
There is an underlying supposition here that should be addressed. That supposition is God has "different" loves, that is, a greater love and a lessor love, as if God would love with a lesser love.

So I'm asking for Scripture that tells us God loves with greater and lesser love. I already know there isn't one.

God IS love. You would diminish His love?

Much love!