Calvinism vs. Arminianism
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Your post is absent of scripture just like your thoughts are not God's thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).
Paul wrote "we have the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:16).
Paul wrote "taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:5)
The Potter decides whether I eat pizza or fish or ice cream.
You, apparently, are on your own, isolated, apart from God in your claimed free-will.
As previously shown in this thread, you deny the Word of God which states "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7), so you are an unreliable source.
Your post is devoid of Christ as Christ depicts Himself for the Word of God says "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes" (Matthew 11:25).
You, o man, think so lightly of riches of the glory of the Potter that you represent yourself in rebellion against the Potter by including yourself among the vessels of wrath by that which the Apostle Paul wrote of with "why did you make me like this" (Romans 9:20).
I state that Paul wrote God is the Potter who molds the clay, that is people, (Romans 9:20-23), so you call Paul a "student of Satan" (link to your post).
I state that Isaiah said God is the Potter and people are the clay (Isaiah 64:8), so you call Isaiah a "student of Satan" (link to your post).
Wow, your interpretation contradicts scripture, right there, Grailhunter!
I depend on the Holy Spirit to interpret and reveal to me (2 Peter 1:20-21), so it is not my interpretation.
In reality, the Potter is good, in fact, ONLY the Potter is good (Mark 10:18), so that makes all persons evil (Romans 3:8-10).
The evil being, you, call the good being, the Potter, evil.
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Your "Yawn" in your post empty of scripture shows the emptiness of your thoughts regarding Romans 9.
Concerning Romans 9:20-23, here is the truth:
In "who are you, O man, who answers back to God" (Romans 9:20), the Apostle Paul wrote "man" not "nation". That is "man" for individual persons instead of "nation" for groups of persons.
In "Why did you make me like this" (Romans 9:20), the Apostle Paul wrote "me" not "us". That is "me" for individual persons instead of "us" for nation.
In "vessels of wrath" (Romans 9:22), the Apostle Paul wrote "vessels" in the plural not "vessel" in the singular. That is "vessels" for individual persons instead of "vessel" for nation.
In "vessels of mercy" (Romans 9:23), the Apostle Paul wrote "vessels" in the plural not "vessel" in the singular. That is "vessels" for individual persons instead of "vessel" for nation.
Since the Apostle Paul wrote "man" and "me" and "vessels" and "vessels", then that which the Apostle Paul wrote concerns specifically individual persons.
In "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" (Romans 9:22), the Apostle Paul wrote "destruction", so Paul was addressing eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46).
In "vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:23), the Apostle Paul wrote "glory", so Paul was addressing eternal life (Matthew 25:46).
Since the Apostle Paul wrote "destruction" and "glory", then that which the Apostle Paul wrote concerns specifically individual person eternal destination of either death in hell or life with Jesus. The Apostle Paul contrasted the extremes of the two eternal destinations.
In "who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:20-23), the Apostle Paul wrote about God's exclusive control of individual person's eternal destination.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Same thing over and over again.
Yes, God can do anything...No, He does not do evil.
Your religions gives God all the characteristics and goals of Satan.
It nullifies Judgment Day being that all are judged to heaven or hell before the creation of anything.
It describes Him as a monstrous puppet master that does not allow free will.
Yes, God can do anything...No, He does not do evil.
Your religions gives God all the characteristics and goals of Satan.
It nullifies Judgment Day being that all are judged to heaven or hell before the creation of anything.
It describes Him as a monstrous puppet master that does not allow free will.
There is your evil self-will showing through where you call the Potter "a monstrous puppet master".
The truth is the truth, and Paul wrote the truth in Romans 9:20-23. It is good to state the truth that God is the Potter and people are the clay.
I state that Paul wrote God is the Potter who molds the clay, that is people, (Romans 9:20-23), so you call Paul a "student of Satan" (link to your post).
I state that Isaiah said God is the Potter and people are the clay (Isaiah 64:8), so you call Isaiah a "student of Satan" (link to your post).
Wow, your interpretation contradicts scripture, right there, Grailhunter!
I depend on the Holy Spirit to interpret and reveal to me (2 Peter 1:20-21), so it is not my interpretation.
In reality, the Potter is good, in fact, ONLY the Potter is good (Mark 10:18), so that makes all persons evil (Romans 3:8-10).
The evil being, you, call the good being, the Potter, evil.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Wrong wrong wrong. Show where that is.
Romans 8 clearly shows thatr those in their natural state (the flesh) cannot please God! So choosing jesus as savior is something that is pleasing to God so how can an unsaved man do that?
Romans 6 sahows trhat every human being is a slave.
either to sin or to righteousness. The unsaved are slaves to sin. How can their be free will for a slave?
It is clear you do not know the definition of predestination.
Pre destination= pro- orizo to mark in advance
Ephesisans shows God chose us before He created the worlds
Jesus said He chose us!
T unsaved have no "free will' when it comes to choosing God or not- they are dead spiritually. Paul even goes so fart o say the unsaved do not seek God, want god or even understand- they think being a child of God is foolishness!
Sorry.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
salvation is not based on us pleasing God, is based on us seeking God and asking him for our forgiveness. You are treating it like a work.
Even a slave has the ability to think.
Predestination means predetermined. But for salvation Romans 8 clearly states foreknowledge of our seeking God comes first. As said many times God knocks at our door, but we have to choose to open it. but once God enters he will never leave for Romans 8.
Even a slave has the ability to think.
Predestination means predetermined. But for salvation Romans 8 clearly states foreknowledge of our seeking God comes first. As said many times God knocks at our door, but we have to choose to open it. but once God enters he will never leave for Romans 8.
Thanks. 2nd Corinthians 5:10 is included there. I think of OB as a great resource.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
You are treating the work of a choice as a means to salvation. That is wicked because it is written that faith/belief, not choice, but "the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus" (2 Timothy 3:15).
Now, righeous faith/belief for salvation is the work of God because the Word of God says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).
Righeous faith/belief is not a work of man (Ephesians 2:8-10), but righeous faith/belief is the work of God (John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-10).
No place in scripture does it state that God knocks at a persons door for man to choose to open the door unto salvation.
Predestination and predetermined are very similar.
Both mean "established before".
Behold, the Apostle Paul wrote "Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:3-6).
God's chosen people for salvation were established before the foundation of the world.
CoreIssue, that is before anybody was created (Adam) or born.
This means that God does everything for man's salvation while man does nothing.
In your first sentence, you wrote that salvation is "based on us seeking God", but that is not what Jesus says.
Jesus says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).
"Seeking God" is a fruit of the Spirit which are works of God in man.
You try to steal God's glory of God's fruit in man.
There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
You are treating the work of a choice as a means to salvation.
"Seeking God" is a fruit of the Spirit which are works of God in man for the Word of God says "he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).
You try to steal God's glory of God's fruit in man.
This current post incorporates this post since you repeat your error, CoreIssue, with respect to "seek". I like keeping the integrity of the posts intact.
The unconverted cannot "seek Christ" for seeking Christ is foolishness to the unconverted (1 Corinthians 2:14); in other words, people need to be converted by the Holy Spirit in order for the fruit to seek Christ can occur (John 3:3-8).
Since you bring up Romans 8, the Apostle Paul wrote that people in the first nature are incapable of pleasing God (Romans 8:8).
Essentially, Paul wrote that God is the One Who causes people to seek God, it's not of man, it's of God.
Jesus issued the command to "seek", but only people's whose ears are opened by God can hear the command "seek" (Mark 7:32-35).
Lord Jesus also says "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44).
All of this means the Holy Spirit of God must be in the person in order for the person to "seek".
There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
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