Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[reformed1689]

There is an underlying supposition here that should be addressed. That supposition is God has "different" loves, that is, a greater love and a lessor love, as if God would love with a lesser love.

So I'm asking for Scripture that tells us God loves with greater and lesser love. I already know there isn't one.

God IS love. You would diminish His love?

Much love!

There is a general love for humanity, God so loved the world, but it also states that he hates some. Many are under his wrath. Vessels prepared for destruction.

 

[reformed1689]

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son."

There is a certain love, that as God has this love, He gives His Son. This love is for the world. No distinction. Equal.

Much love!

And how does world equal every individual?

 

[marks]

And of course you know that is not what we are talking about. More sloppiness from you.

You speak of me being carefree and sloppy. So that's what YOU were talking about. I respond to you, and you again deflect. Do you respond to my content? No you do not.

I'm addressing your content whether empty or not. You toss back insults.

Here's where you may make it all about some supposed "offense". Or you can accept that I point to these things in the hope that you will recognize the inappropriateness, and will rise to a higher level.

I don't need any kind of confession or acknowledgement, only that you will take a moment of serious thought over how you treat people, and how to speak to them.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Its a good idea to take stock sometimes.

Much love!

 

[reformed1689]

You speak of me being carefree and sloppy. So that's what YOU were talking about. I respond to you, and you again deflect. Do you respond to my content? No you do not.

I'm addressing your content whether empty or not. You toss back insults.

Here's where you may make it all about some supposed "offense". Or you can accept that I point to these things in the hope that you will recognize the inappropriateness, and will rise to a higher level.

I don't need any kind of confession or acknowledgement, only that you will take a moment of serious thought over how you treat people, and how to speak to them.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. Its a good idea to take stock sometimes.

Much love!

Actually, once you ACTUALLY answered my substantive content, "does God love all equally" then I responded to your content.

 

[marks]

There is a deplorable offshoot of this idea, Once Saved Always Saved, that teaches that if you go forward at a Crusade or church service, you are saved and cannot lose your salvation no matter how you live your life after that.

Normally how I hear "OSAS" taught, it is just like "the perserverance of the saints", that being born again is forever.

What you describe sounds more to me, well, it reminds me, I was at Christmas Eve service with my mother in law. Her Presbyterian church had just got a new lady pastor. It came time for Communion. She told the congregation, in the receiving of the bread dipped in the wine, you are saved. It doesn't matter what you believe about God, or about sin, just receive the tinctured wafer, and you will go to heaven.

Thankfully that church did not keep this person in that position for long!

But I don't find deplorable the doctrine that we who are reborn are His children forever. I find that to be a most fundamental believe towards enjoying and living in my relationship with God.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I - Irresistible Grace: Calvinism teaches that if someone is of the elect, absolutely nothing can prevent him from being saved. He will be irresistibly drawn to Christ and cannot make any other decision than to receive Christ within his lifetime.

As you've pointed out, Universalism has some serious conflicts with passages of Scritpure.

I'm thinking also of Titus, where it says that the grace of God unto salvation has appeared to all men. If that's so, and God's grace to be irresistable, then it would seem to me the teaching of "irresistable grace" would naturally lead one to conclude universalism.

In saying the grace of God unto salvation has appeared to all men, this is saying, God offers salvation to everyone, with the grace to receive it, everyone. Not disengenuously, but honestly, in truth. Everyone truly does have the opportunity to be saved at least sometime in their life.

In Acts 17, Paul's Mars Hill address, God determined the times and habitations of men that they should search for Him, though He's not far. Again, I'd say God did this with honesty, integrity, He put me in this time and this place because He really did want me to seek Him, and find Him. And the same for everyone else.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

Now, in order for Once Saved Always Saved to still be a reality,t:

All you have to offer the members here, is one more redundant Cross rejection theory regarding OSAS?

So you posted the definitions.... just to teach that Jesus can't keep you saved, in your opinion.

Well, here is the reality Check. "Once born again, always born again".

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I will go through my understanding of the five points of Calvinism in this post.

T - Total Depravity: Calvinism teaches that man is totally depraved and cannot make a decision to receive Christ unless he has already been born again of the Holy Spirit.

I would teach that there is a middle ground between total depravity and being born again...being drawn by the Holy Spirit...in which a man, who is not yet regenerated or born again, is enabled to either receive or reject Christ in that window of opportunity in which the Holy Spirit is drawing him. If he then receives Christ rather than rejecting Him, he becomes born again of the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ.

Verses that substantiate this are Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 5:1-2.

U - Unconditional Election: Calvinism teaches that God arbitrarily chooses out some people for heaven and others for hell based on His choice alone.

I would teach that the Lord predestinates according to foreknowledge.

It is like the following parable.

You see a door in front of you with a sign on it that says, "Whosoever will, let him come." Upon entering, you find a table set with a nametag with your name on it at a place that was specifically set for you. You look back at the door and see a sign that says, "Predestined from before the foundations of the world."

Predestination according to foreknowledge means that the Lord knows who, when faced with the door with the sign on the outside, will choose to walk through that door; and before you walked through it He set a place for you knowing that you would be a guest at the dinner table. In this, He chose you and you did not choose Him; because eternity is a greater thing than time; and God from eternity looked down into time and saw you making the decision to receive Him; and then, by His predetermined counsel and will, chose you and did everything in his Omnipotent power to bring you into the kingdom.

But He still bases His decision on the fact that He looked down from eternity and saw that you received Him.

Verses that substantiate this are Romans 8:29-30 and 1 Peter 1:2.

L - Limited Atonement: hyper-Calvinism teaches that Jesus only died for the elect and that therefore, if you are of the non-elect, you cannot be saved even if you were to do what it takes to enter into salvation (such as the prescriptions in Romans 10:8-13 and Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39).

I would teach that this is not a biblical doctrine. For in John 6:37, it becomes clear that whoever comes to Jesus, He will in no wise cast out.

It should also be clear that scripture teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Peter 3:9) and that therefore Limited Atonement is a fallacy.

The reality therefore is Unlimited Atonement but Limited Salvation; because Universalism is not the reality. Atonement is based on the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross for the sins of all men; salvation is based on whether a man receives Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour.

I - Irresistible Grace: Calvinism teaches that if someone is of the elect, absolutely nothing can prevent him from being saved. He will be irresistibly drawn to Christ and cannot make any other decision than to receive Christ within his lifetime.

I would respond to this by saying that the Lord is not a mafia boss and He does not give us "an offer that we can't refuse". Jesus and the Holy Spirit are a gentleman.

Also, I once so wanted to believe in this that I found verses that seemed to substantiate it. In 1 Corinthians 13:8, "Love never fails" and in Revelation 19:6 we have the idea that the Lord is Omnipotent. Who then can resist salvation if He wants you saved?

The problem with this is that it leads incontrovertibly to the idea of either Limited Atonement or Universalism. We have seen above that Limited Atonement is a fallacy.

And Universalism is a fallacy because Jesus spoke of a literal hell that people go to (Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50, Matthew 25:46) and therefore not everyone gets saved.

So then, if neither Universalism nor Limited Atonement are the reality, then neither is Irresistible Grace.

What then does "Love never fail" to do, in all of God's Omnipotence?

It doesn't fail to give man a degree of sovereignty by which he can choose whether to receive Jesus as his Lord and Saviour and be saved; or else to reject Jesus as Lord and Saviour and be damned.

Finally, the idea that grace is irresistible is refuted by Acts of the Apostles 7:51.

P - Perseverance of the Saints: Calvinism teaches that if once a man is truly born again, he will never depart from the faith but will endure to the end and cannot lose his salvation.

There is a deplorable offshoot of this idea, Once Saved Always Saved, that teaches that if you go forward at a Crusade or church service, you are saved and cannot lose your salvation no matter how you live your life after that.

I believe that the Bible refutes such an idea in Romans 11:20-22.

.

You are throwing the baby out with the bath water because of a human term given to a biblical reality.

Limited atonement is a reality. while Jesus death paid for the sins of the world only the elect benefit from that atonement.

There is also full predestination. Yes it is through foreknowledge but you misunderstand what foreknowledge is. biblical fore knowledge is pro-gnosis where we get our word prognosis from. Gods foreknowledge is not because He looked down the corridor of time and saw who would and would not choose Him, but Gods foreknowledge is based on Him working out His plan according to the counsel of His will. It is like a dcotor who after the X-Rays, Mrii's and exams gives you a prognosis on your recovery after surgery. He knows what He will do IN advance and knows the outcome! Just like the old AAA triptiks. You know how to get where you are going, because you have had it mapped out and marked out in advance!

Also irresistible grace is the Biblical reality. As Jesus said, No one can come to HIm unless the Father draws them to Jesus. so unless one is drawn to Christ- we will never come to Christ!

Tulip is still the Christian's best flower! As opposed to the Arminian daisy...He loves me, He loves me not, He loves me........

And once saved always saved or eternal security is the reality for all who have been born again! You cheapen it by saying just walking down an aisle or going to a church service saves a soul. That is no more true than walking into a McDonalds makes you a Big Mac!

To say that a person can lose something they do not even hold onto (for it is kept in heaven for us) is to say that Jesus did not die for all you r sin, but just most of them.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

T - Total Depravity: Calvinism teaches that man is totally depraved and cannot make a decision to receive Christ unless he has already been born again of the Holy Spirit.

I would teach that there is a middle ground between total depravity and being born again...being drawn by the Holy Spirit...in which a man, who is not yet regenerated or born again, is enabled to either receive or reject Christ in that window of opportunity in which the Holy Spirit is drawing him. If he then receives Christ rather than rejecting Him, he becomes born again of the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ.

Verses that substantiate this are Ephesians 2:8-9 and Romans 5:1-2.

These verses do not justify your position, but disproves it!

Romans 8 clearly teaches that those in their human nature cannot please God and Corinthians tells us that the natural man cannot perceive the things of God for they are spiritually discerned and the unsaved man is spiritually dead! Jesus is the door to walk through, not a window! The fallen nature will never choose Christ-EVER !

 

[Behold]

Predestination of events is certainly an ability of God...but the whole puppet master thing is ludicrous.
Once you get into that, you get into the whole destiny thing that Christianity does not agree with either.

Can a puppet or a robot have "free will"?
Can God hold you accountable for Rejecting Christ if He caused you to do it?

See, if as Predestined Elect Theology teaches...."God chooses some to burn in the lake of fire, and chooses others not to, for no reason"... then that means that God is holding you accountable for HIM causing you to reject Christ, as that is why you burn in the Lake of Fire.
So, "predestined elect" theology, is the worst of all, because it accuses God of being a cosmic psychopath.

Here is the inside JOKE about these Hyper-Calvinists nutbars who teach that God chooses some for hell, like its some cosmic slot machine in heaven, and God pulls the handle and you are born out of the slot to go to hell...
Here is what these theologically unsane people dont tell you...They never tell you that none of their family will go to hell, or none of their church.
See that?
They are all "secure", but not your family, and not you.
See that DECEPTION?
They hate it when you bring that up, and Mods will ban you for bringing up that point on a forum, as they can't defend it, so.....they cancel your membership to hide their lies.

This Theology of "predestination", includes the teaching that God causes all the EVIL in the world.
Do you know what this means??? = To teach that God is the reason for rape, incest, murder, porn, hatred....
It means that this nutbar demonic "predestined elect" theology, is giving God Credit for the DEVIL's work.
This unsane theology has REMOVED THE DEVIL from his DEEDS, and replaced His work : as GOD doing it, causing it.
And if you point that out on a forum that is infested with these "predestined elect" MODS< they will cancel your membership......
What other choice do they have....

Have you seen a movie from the '80s...."The Boy Who Could Fly". ???

This boy, in the movie is of course a grown man now, and i have dealt with him about his "predestined elect" Theology, as he is submerged in it.
It was typical...Its like talking to a Water Cultist about their savior= water baptism.
They can't hear you, they can only stay submerged.

 

[Grailhunter]

These verses do not justify your position, but disproves it!

Romans 8 clearly teaches that those in their human nature cannot please God and Corinthians tells us that the natural man cannot perceive the things of God for they are spiritually discerned and the unsaved man is spiritually dead! Jesus is the door to walk through, not a window! The fallen nature will never choose Christ-EVER !

First off I do not remember a time that I did not choose Christ.
Secondly if you are teaching those children that God is a Monster Puppet Master...I hope you get a double dose.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

First off I do not remember a time that I did not choose Christ.
Secondly if you are teaching those children that God is a Monster Puppet Master...I hope you get a double dose.

Sorry but you were born an object of wrath by nature. We are not born as children of God, but born again as children of God!

No I teach them that God so loved the world....... All my children and all my grandchildren except the 2 youngest have made prfoession of faith and are seeking Jesus.

I don't know who will or who will not be drawn to Jesus! I just share the gospel best I can and leave the conversion or condemnation to God!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Actually, once you ACTUALLY answered my substantive content, "does God love all equally" then I responded to your content.

It is true God doesn't love all equally.

Jesus in Matt. 7 shows that when Jesus said to some "I never knew you". He didn't sayi Iknew you once, but don't know you now! and then of course John 3:36 and romans 9 that too many believers wish were not in the bible.

 

[Grailhunter]

Sorry but you were born an object of wrath by nature. We are not born as children of God, but born again as children of God!

No I teach them that God so loved the world....... All my children and all my grandchildren except the 2 youngest have made prfoession of faith and are seeking Jesus.

I don't know who will or who will not be drawn to Jesus! I just share the gospel best I can and leave the conversion or condemnation to God!

This theology...on how many levels is it wrong and how many level is it blasphemous?
The Monster Puppet Master God makes as much sense as the great spaghetti monster god.
Those that are saved or damned are chosen before Creation.
So what is the purpose of Judgment Day?
No good means anything! Faith, love, belief, compassion, kindness, good deeds, prayer, grace, forgiveness, church attendance is of no merit for the individual because God has forced them.
Alternatively all murder, abortion, all forms of evil, all the horrible things that have happened on earth, is all the design of God. None of it is their fault being under the control of the great Puppet Monster. So all evil is by God's direction. The fault of no person but they are mercilessly damned to hell for what God did.
How does He choose? Dartboard?
People damned before they are born is nothing but an evil and monstrous belief.
It is an evil character that can read the good Word of God and pick that out of it.
Nazi-ism...the elect, the elite, the chosen is a concept that comes from the worst of people that ever lived.
It sets up a mind set that is absolutely warped.

 

[reformed1689]

This theology...on how many levels is it wrong and how many level is it blasphemous?
The Monster Puppet Master God makes as much sense as the great spaghetti monster god.
Those that are saved or damned are chosen before Creation.
So what is the purpose of Judgment Day?
No good means anything! Faith, love, belief, compassion, kindness, good deeds, prayer, grace, forgiveness, church attendance is of no merit for the individual because God has forced them.
Alternatively all murder, abortion, all forms of evil, all the horrible things that have happened on earth, is all the design of God. None of it is their fault being under the control of the great Puppet Monster. So all evil is by God's direction. The fault of no person but they are mercilessly damned to hell for what God did.
How does He choose? Dartboard?
People damned before they are born is nothing but an evil and monstrous belief.
It is an evil character that can read the good Word of God and pick that out of it.
Nazi-ism...the elect, the elite, the chosen is a concept that comes from the worst of people that ever lived.
It sets up a mind set that is absolutely warped.


View attachment 13593

Who are you oh man to question God?

 

[Grailhunter]

Who are you oh man to question God?

The way you describe God I am not questioning God I am standing against Satan.

 

[reformed1689]

The way you describe God I am not questioning God I am standing against Satan.

Did you even realize I just quoted Scripture regarding the fact that God hates some and some are created as vessels of destruction? Did you know that?

10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?


The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2016), Ro 9:10–24.

 

[justbyfaith]

Where does the Bible say Christ died for all? That all are able to be saved? Where does it say that?

1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2, 2 Peter 3:9.

I did not say that all does not mean all. But you have to look at what the all is referring to.

You teach that when it says "all" in the above verses, it does not mean all.

That is effectively saying that "all" does not mean all.

Do you believe God loves everyone equally? If you do, please point to the Scriptural support for it.

1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16.

All you have to offer the members here, is one more redundant Cross rejection theory regarding OSAS?

So you posted the definitions.... just to teach that Jesus can't keep you saved, in your opinion.

Well, here is the reality Check. "Once born again, always born again".

Romans 11:20-22 would tell you that if you think you're born again, but don't continue in His goodness, that either you weren't born again in the first place or else you lose your salvation in departing from His goodness.

Also, James 1:14-16 tells us that, while a person who is born again cannot be "un-born" they can die spiritually.

This Theology of "predestination",

Predestination is a biblical word.

It was typical...Its like talking to a Water Cultist about their savior= water baptism.
They can't hear you, they can only stay submerged.

No, for those who have been baptized are not submerged any longer. We have come up out of the water in order that we might "walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:4).

How does He choose? Dartboard?

In Calvinism it is an arbitrary decision on God's part to place some in heaven and others in hell on their day of judgment. Because those who go to hell had no choice in the matter of whether or not they would be deserving of hell.

 

[reformed1689]

You teach that when it says "all" in the above verses, it does not mean all.

Strawman. That is not what I teach. I teach it does not mean all individuals because it does not say all individuals.

1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16.

Neither of those says God loves all equally.

Because those who go to hell had no choice in the matter of whether or not they would be deserving of hell.

This is not true. They sinned.

 

[Grailhunter]

Strawman. That is not what I teach. I teach it does not mean all individuals because it does not say all individuals.

Neither of those says God loves all equally.

This is not true. They sinned.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.
Is this part of your religion...or have you changed it to read...“For God so loved the ones He choose, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that the elect will not perish, but have eternal life."

How about this one...
1st John 2:2
"...and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
does your church change this to read "...and He Himself is the propitiation for the sins of the elect alone...the rest will go to hell."

This is so easy!!!