Which One Are You Praying For Most?

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marks

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This might be a long road to cover, but in my view justification comes through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, as a visible sign of His having forgiven us our sins.
I see two different kinds of justification. One is to be justified before others, which is when our faith produces works. Others can see our works, and infer our faith. This is what I think you are talking about here.

The other is to be separated from our sins, rendered righteous by God. This is in a declaration of innocence by God, and in our rebirth, now born from God.

Having died in Christ, we are freed from our flesh, the world, the Law, sin, transgression, free from the Law of Sin and Death. No guilt of sin, no power of sin over us, only to the extend that we are deceived into thinking that either we actually want sin, or that we cannot avoid sin, or whatever that deception may be.

So that's more the justification I was speaking of.

Much love!
 

marks

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Ah! Here we would strongly disagree. See what you would say to Post #35 I wrote to TLH. I think we are in a bad place in our mentality personally, and that only if we ask Him for the opportunity to endure hardships in this present time will we. The church in the West is not enduring much persecution yet, and many of us lead a "blessed" life compared to our New Testament counterparts, and know little of what it meant to suffer for Christ's sake.

Why do you think "we" are in such a bad place? Who is "we"?

I don't dream of instructing God in how to order my life, I think He already has that plan in place.

Vast numbers of people throughout the centuries have been persecuted for Christ, and vast numbers haven't.

Is there virtue in seeking to be persecuted?

Much love!
 

marks

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See what you would say to Post #35 I wrote to TLH.

I agree. Much of the current church today operates under a deception IMO, just as the church at Laodicea did back then. I trace many Christians saying to themselves today, "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing" to a return the church made to Old Testament mentality several decades ago, when the prosperity movement really started to take hold. People started equating "being blessed" with material wealth again, as opposed to being rich in spiritual things first and foremost.

I hadn't stated it yet in response to anyone yet (I don't think), but the first one is actually the one I am returning to praying more now. What good would it do in eternity to enter it spiritually poor for having lived an easy life?

God bless, and thanks for replying to the thread : )

Since you asked . . .

This to me seems like an overgeneralization that doesn't match my personal experience with the body of Christ. I also find great confidence in the Lord's ability to uphold His church.

But I think there are many who profess Christ without rebirth.

Much love!
 

charity

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Hi Charity, and thanks for the response.
This sounds on the surface like it might be an appeal from scholarship somewhere. My problem with it, however, is that it is applying a letter written to the churches as if it were ultimately not written to the church, which is a very strange concept.

Again, my answer here would be that the letters were written to seven churches about their needs; seven churches that were part of the body of Christ at that time, so I'd have to stick with my position that the letters were a reference prophetically to the church (both New Testament and end-time), not Israel.

But I appreciate the response. Never heard that view before.
Hi there 'Hidden In Him,

We do not have any common ground upon which to begin discussing this together, so I will have to bow out.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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amadeus

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@Hidden In Him
Amadeus said: Should we, however, pray that we undergo adversities in order for our faith to be tried? I would certainly hesitate to say that because it could easily lead us into tempting God.

Hidden in Him said: "into tempting God..." I read this statement several times but I can't seem to understand the point you are making. Try rephrasing this for me if you can. I'm having trouble

There are probably several levels of this, where we are pushing ahead of God to obtain the "good" but by doing so perhaps actually encounter something not so good. An extreme example that comes to mind is people who purposely allow themselves to be physically crucified [in the Philippines?] or people who whip themselves or allow themselves to be whipped to supposedly close in on God.

God is our leader. We are not to take our own reins in our own hands and expect Him to be there with us.


"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23
 
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amadeus

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@Hidden In Him
Amadeus said: How do we look to those who see us? Would we hide what we are before men? Would we be ashamed to show ourselves to others as we are?

Hidden in Him said:
Oh no. Not the point I was after, John. Simply that our forgiveness is made manifest before men in that the Spirit has been poured out upon us in confirmation of it. Not an attempt to "hide" anything from anyone, or even an intent on our part to do anything. More of an acknowledgement by God that He considers our sins forgiven.
The thing that comes to mind is Moses when his face shone so blindly bright before men he had to put a veil over his face. It seems however that I am still missing your point. It must be me that is not understanding.

Are you speaking only a man recognizing in himself that he is forgiven rather than other men recognizing it?
 

marks

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Hi Charity, and thanks for the response. This sounds on the surface like it might be an appeal from scholarship somewhere. My problem with it, however, is that it is applying a letter written to the churches as if it were ultimately not written to the church, which is a very strange concept.


Again, my answer here would be that the letters were written to seven churches about their needs; seven churches that were part of the body of Christ at that time, so I'd have to stick with my position that the letters were a reference prophetically to the church (both New Testament and end-time), not Israel.

But I appreciate the response. Never heard that view before.

I found it a very interesting study to examine the language in each of the 7 letters, and to compare with . . .

  • 7 kingdom parables
  • 7 periods in Israel's history
  • 7 letters from Paul
  • 7 phases in the life of a church
  • 7 periods of christendom

I've found very interesting alignments in each of these.

Much love!
 

Nancy

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Thanks for the honest answer, sister. :)

Now, the verse you are referring to is this: "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. Like as a father pities his children, so the Lord pities them that fear him." (Psalm 103:12-13).

What this is essentially referring to is that God has taken pity on His children by forgiving them of their former transgressions. It doesn't really address Him dealing with future sins like we think of in the New Testament (once and for all through Christ) because that concept was still foreign to the Jews. It was a mystery still hidden in God.


Well praise God, and thanks for the nice post : ) It is a wonderful thing to see others as He sees them, because He sees the good in others. He sees them when they were a child; He looks upon them with compassion knowing everything they have been through, and reaches out a hand to them where they truly are. :)

God bless you, dear, and always good to hear from you,
Hidden

Thanks HIH!
 
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Brakelite

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Well it is. It is our character - our soul - that is purified when our faith is tested. This seems to be the tenor of his meaning in 1st Peter:

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory, at the appearing of Jesus Christ.

The praise and honor and glory he is speaking of is our own, and it comes by demonstrating a life completely submitted and sacrificed unto God
I might add a little thought to that, I think the basic problem with mankind, and this began in the garden and was the principle reason why Adam and Eve rebelled, us that they didn't trust God... And they didn't trust Him because they didn't know Him as they ought. They misunderstood His character. The devil has done a great job of embedding that misunderstanding throughout mankind, which is why we end up making up our own gods after our own image.
Thus we need trials to test out faith. To give us opportunity to learn that we can trust God in even the most extreme of circumstances... As one WW11 Jewish rabbi POW once said... You know God when you can stand over a pit of burning babies and still declare, God is love.

Again, I think it is, i.e. Christ's righteousness in us. Now about your statement that, "I do not see this as a covering for sin, but a covering of my nakedness," I once thought this myself. But on looking closer at the text, I've come to realize He is saying "that the shame of your nakedness not appear." It dawned on me that the nakedness and the shame actually remains, at least as far as that we all still struggle with sin, and they still "so easily beset us." But the covering has a way of justifying us anyway. As Paul said, "If God be for us, who can be against us." All our sins are indeed still as filthy rags, but in spite of it we are clothed in the white raiment, pure and holy.
I think it's deeper than just a covering. Nancy suggested that our sins are cast away as far as the east from the west, but that I believe that's still future... Yet there is a present sense I believe whereby our sins are removed at least from us, although there remains a record of them in heaven...
KJV Zechariah 3:1-4
1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
 
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soul man

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Greetings in Christ!

In Revelation Chapter 3:18, the Lord asked believers to "buy from Him" (i.e. pray to Him for*) three things, and this passage is believed to prophetically parallel our own time. If that's the case, which of these things are you praying for?

1. A faith tried in the fires of adversity (i.e. sufferings)
2. A life clothed in the Spirit of God, by which ones sins do not appear, and
3. Eyes opened spiritually to see the world as God does.

I leave it open to discussion. A further explanation of the passage and its interpretation is provided below. The points of this interpretation are open to discussion as well.

God bless,
Hidden In Him

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot: I would you were cold or hot. 16 So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew your out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing," and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel you to buy of Me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness does not appear; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Be zealous therefore, and repent.

The currency of Heaven is indeed prayer, not that we can in any way "earn" anything from God - they are attained only by grace - but we are told in scripture to beseech Him for the things we desire, for "the fervent prayer of a righteous man has great strength," and "And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive if you have faith.”

1. "Gold tried by fire" is also referred to in 1st Peter as "a faith tried in the fire." The metaphor refers to attaining to a place where sufferings have burned away all but the desire for whatever God wants in our lives.

2. "White Raiment" refers to being "clothed upon" in the Spirit of God. The reason that the shame of our nakedness can no longer be seen is because this covers over it. All of us have sins, even those closest to God, but when the Spirit of God is poured out upon us and overshadows us, all the world can see is the Lord manifesting Himself through us.

3. "Eye Salve" refers to an anointment that was used to heal the eyes that one could see better, and more clearly. Spiritually, it refers essentially to seeing things as God sees them, especially as regards sin, true Christian teaching, religious deception, and the spiritual schemes of our enemy.

@charity, @marks, @Mayflower, @FluffyYellowDuck, @Backlit, @TLHKAJ, @Heart2Soul, @Ferris Bueller, @Devin Wintch, @Behold, @Berserk, @Pearl, @amadeus, @keithr. My apologies if I forgot anyone, and anyone is welcome.

I like this kind of discussion.
My opinion is; this should be a christian life lived out if possible. These things come to you in time. I don't know about never seeing sin, and seeing the world as God see's the world. I think we can see the world and how it is used of God for good, but seeing like he sees the world is not necessary, jmo.
 

VictoryinJesus

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1. A faith tried in the fires of adversity (i.e. sufferings)
2. A life clothed in the Spirit of God, by which ones sins do not appear, and
3. Eyes opened spiritually to see the world as God does.

to pray for one mostly ...is it not then the prayer of all three? 2) to pray for a life clothed in the Spirit of God, by which ones sins do not appear. 1) for sins to not appear do they have to not have to be consumed and burnt up in the fire of adversity? The same for 3) that 1 and 2; all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed (transformed)to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:28-29

To be honest...my prayer mostly is to just make it through the day.
 

Hidden In Him

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Yes and no. We feel the desires for sin, but those desires are actually flesh desires, and not our own. As children of God, we do not desire evil things.

This goes towards the renewing of the mind, as we come to realize that sin no longer lives in us, and we don't actually want it.

Ephesians 4:20-24
20) But ye have not so learned Christ;
21) If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Much love!

Ok, then this I fully agree with. :)
The other is to be separated from our sins, rendered righteous by God. This is in a declaration of innocence by God, and in our rebirth, now born from God.

Having died in Christ, we are freed from our flesh, the world, the Law, sin, transgression, free from the Law of Sin and Death. No guilt of sin, no power of sin over us, only to the extend that we are deceived into thinking that either we actually want sin, or that we cannot avoid sin, or whatever that deception may be.

So that's more the justification I was speaking of.

Cite the scripture you are basing the above on, and let's discuss it!
Why do you think "we" are in such a bad place? Who is "we"?

We as in the modern church as a whole.
I don't dream of instructing God in how to order my life, I think He already has that plan in place.

Vast numbers of people throughout the centuries have been persecuted for Christ, and vast numbers haven't.

Is there virtue in seeking to be persecuted?

Well that's my contention, yes. Imagine it as though the Lord wants us to conform ourselves as fully to His image as possible (Philippians 2:5-8), and those who fully express a desire for this, knowing what they are asking, are pleasing in His sight for doing so (Matthew 20:20-23).
 

Hidden In Him

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Hi there 'Hidden In Him,

We do not have any common ground upon which to begin discussing this together, so I will have to bow out.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

No problems, sister. I appreciate your politeness. :)

God bless, and you're always the first one I tag, so we'll see how it goes next time.
 

Hidden In Him

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There are probably several levels of this, where we are pushing ahead of God to obtain the "good" but by doing so perhaps actually encounter something not so good. An extreme example that comes to mind is people who purposely allow themselves to be physically crucified [in the Philippines?] or people who whip themselves or allow themselves to be whipped to supposedly close in on God.


Oh! Ok, that I fully understand. This actually raises a strong theological question. The early church understood what I am teaching, and did indeed start taking it to the extremes you are talking about here eventually. My position on it is that we are stepping outside of God's will and superficially entering our own if we exact suffering upon ourselves, granted that flailing ourselves to a bloody mess is certainly more akin to truly suffering than those type that walk a mile or two with a wooden cross but without a mark on them.

The thing I believe we are to do is just as the text suggests, and that is PRAY for whatever His will would be in this regard. And let me give you a for instance. Suppose a believer wants to have a faith tried in the fires so that he enters eternity having conformed himself more fully to Christ's image, in being obedient even unto death, and yet his calling requires him to live out his full life? What then? He has to ask the Lord for whatever His plan would be, that he take up the cross in sufferings and trials, but in a way that does not take his life from him.

I'm against self-imposed suffering and trials. It takes matters out of God's hands, and also makes assumptions we should not be making.
God is our leader. We are not to take our own reins in our own hands and expect Him to be there with us.

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23


Exactly. Didn't read this until just now, but that's the way I feel too. :)
 

Hidden In Him

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I found it a very interesting study to examine the language in each of the 7 letters, and to compare with . . .

  • 7 kingdom parables
  • 7 periods in Israel's history
  • 7 letters from Paul
  • 7 phases in the life of a church
  • 7 periods of christendom

I've found very interesting alignments in each of these.

Much love!

THAT sounds like a lot of work, LoL.

I suggest if the Lord calls you to it, maybe write up a piece on how much of it aligns (not sure how much of it does). If so, tag me, and I'll do what I can to try and respond.
 

Hidden In Him

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all 3 i did ask
why you ask
because i am not your typical normal person

Well good for you, stredaleve, LoL.

I hope you indeed have, and I hope the Lord answers you, and you enter the kingdom rich in all spiritual things.

Thank you for the post.
- H
 

Hidden In Him

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I like this kind of discussion.
My opinion is; this should be a christian life lived out if possible. These things come to you in time. I don't know about never seeing sin, and seeing the world as God see's the world. I think we can see the world and how it is used of God for good, but seeing like he sees the world is not necessary, jmo.


That's an interesting thought... I don't think seeing everything He sees is necessary, no. so maybe in a way I agree with you.
 
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Hidden In Him

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to pray for one mostly ...is it not then the prayer of all three? 2) to pray for a life clothed in the Spirit of God, by which ones sins do not appear. 1) for sins to not appear do they have to not have to be consumed and burnt up in the fire of adversity? The same for 3) that 1 and 2; all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. [29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed (transformed)to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:28-29


In some sense they could fold over into each other, yes Victory. The more we are clothed upon in the Spirit the more we will speak by the Spirit, and the more the sword is drawn the more the enemy will seek to attack us and drive us back, leading to sufferings, afflictions and persecution. Likewise the more our eyes are opened to see things as God sees them, the more truth will come out of our mouths, again leading to the same things.

And a faith tried in the fires leads one to call out to God, leading to being clothed upon and having the eyes anointed. So good point.
To be honest...my prayer mostly is to just make it through the day.


Well that's a good prayer, too. :) It means that maybe to some extent you've got the first one covered already, and great reward awaits you in the next life!

God bless, and hope you are having a wonderful day!
- H
 

Hidden In Him

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I might add a little thought to that, I think the basic problem with mankind, and this began in the garden and was the principle reason why Adam and Eve rebelled, us that they didn't trust God... And they didn't trust Him because they didn't know Him as they ought. They misunderstood His character. The devil has done a great job of embedding that misunderstanding throughout mankind, which is why we end up making up our own gods after our own image.
Thus we need trials to test out faith. To give us opportunity to learn that we can trust God in even the most extreme of circumstances... As one WW11 Jewish rabbi POW once said... You know God when you can stand over a pit of burning babies and still declare, God is love.


Wow. Leave it to a Jew to really say it like it can best be said, LoL.

I think this is a wonderful thought, and it goes to why God allows sufferings to begin with... it's a glorious thing, when you think about it. That we have to live this life not knowing for certain if there is reward in the afterlife or not, but just trusting God in faith, out of love for Him, and being trained unto obedience... to then be surprised and rewarded with things far greater than we could have ever asked. It's glorious. :)
I think it's deeper than just a covering. Nancy suggested that our sins are cast away as far as the east from the west, but that I believe that's still future... Yet there is a present sense I believe whereby our sins are removed at least from us, although there remains a record of them in heaven...
KJV Zechariah 3:1-4
1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.


It's an interesting passage. To me v.4 means that his life and his walk will now change as a result of a new anointing from God, more than that the Lord would cast away his (future) sins, but that is open to interpretation I suppose.

Thanks for the response, bro.