Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[Renniks]

How can a man dead in sin have free will. How can a man enslaved to sin have free will? How can a man with a nature incapapble of pleasing God have free will? The only free he has is to continue living not pleasing god!

Before I was saved I knew what sin was. I was convicted of sin. Weren't you? I knew when I sinned it was against God and that I chose it. Not God. Not anyone but me. And I knew when I did right also. Man is made in God's image, we have a conscious. God convicts sinners, too, you know. They can choose to respond or rebel.
Paul contrasts the wicked and the righteous to make a point. But Paul could have chosen to remain in sin even after being knocked off his horse. Hemight ever named blind the rest of his life, but God didn't force him to believe.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Amen!

Suffice to say, I need charts like this to help me keep track. Greek class was a LONG time ago! But then, I have brain like a steel seive! I mean steel trap!

Anything disturbs it, it snaps tightly shut, and is very hard to reopen. And watch your fingers if you try!

Yeah I keep loads of cheat sheets online! My greek studies were over 35 years ago!

 

[Renniks]

and His Words contradict the New Testament unless of course you are of the belief that all those detewrministic verses were just for the Apostles, ephesians and Romans and Corinthians and the rest of us are left with free will that doesn't show up in the bible except by philosophical deduction and not sound exegeses.

There are no deterministic verses... it's just the way you were taught to read them.

 

[Behold]

Well seeing as we are the elect BEFORE the foundation of teh world-.

Yes, we the born again, are the Elect, in the FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD.........

This means that God knows who will be saved and who wont be, before we are born.
This KNOWING is "foreknowledge", or knowledge BEFORE a thing happens.
This is God Knowledge, as God being able to do that....
However... God knowing a thing before it happens, is not God causing it.
See, Knowing is KNOWING>.....that is not the same as causing.

This means that God knows everything at all times, about everything.
That is not the same as causing everything at all times.
It means what it means......to KNOW BEFORE it happens...what will always happen. = God's Fore-Knowledge. = Knowledge of everything that happens before it happens.

The cult that has deceived you, can not comprehend that knowing a thing before it happens, (foreknowledge) is not the same as causing it.

Let me break it down for you.

God knew before i was born what i am writing to you right now, and God knew before you were born, what you would THINK about it, and how you would respond.
IN both of our cases, Ronald, God is not causing what we do, but in both of our cases, God knew what we would do. = FORE-KNOWLEDGE.

 

[Renniks]

Moses belonged to the Lord! He had free will restored to Him.

Talk about missing the point! And there's no verses saying our freewill is ever lost or restored.

 

[Renniks]

And these are not soteriological issues. Once again predestination only has to do with who gets saved and who doesn't! Not what happens after one is saved and has free will restored to them.

Right, because you made up your own doctrine.
"If" "then" statements do apply to salvation.

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, ( then) you will be saved;

If we confess our sins, ( then) He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Cooper]

Well Ephesians 1 proves you wrong!

Ephesians 1
King James Version

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Unless you contend that now the apostles and the Ephesians were chosen from before the foundation of the World.

Romans 8:29-30
King James Version

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Also says you are wrong unless you contend that not all of the church is predestined so they will be conformed to the image of Jesus. Thats very JW teaching.

Predestination is simple. From the foundation of the earth, He (God) has predestined that those in Him (believers) are to be with Him in heaven, and unbelievers to be in Hell.

It is our choice. "choose you this day whom ye will serve."
.

 

[justbyfaith]

You still haven't shown biblically how an unsaved man who is in the flesh and thereby cannot please God is able to make any choice towards God!

<fify>

show me one verse where unsaved men had free will.

Jos 24:15, And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rev 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Do not go back to OT Israel

You only say that because you know that Joshua 24:15 defeats your understanding.

The force is with you young padewan!

Seems to me like you have subscribed to a pagan religion that is quickly gaining credibility in our culture; propagated by the Star Wars franchise.

 

[Cooper]

<fify>



Jos 24:15, And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rev 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.



You only say that because you know that Joshua 24:15 defeats your understanding.



Seems to me like you have subscribed to a pagan religion that is quickly gaining credibility in our culture; propagated by the Star Wars franchise.

Yes. It is our choice. "choose you this day whom ye will serve."
.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Before I was saved I knew what sin was. I was convicted of sin. Weren't you? I knew when I sinned it was against God and that I chose it. Not God. Not anyone but me. And I knew when I did right also. Man is made in God's image, we have a conscious. God convicts sinners, too, you know. They can choose to respond or rebel.
Paul contrasts the wicked and the righteous to make a point. But Paul could have chosen to remain in sin even after being knocked off his horse. Hemight ever named blind the rest of his life, but God didn't force him to believe.

Yes we choose sin. I never implied otherwise!

Once again all you are using as a defense is logic and philosophy, but not the bible.

And Paul said He was separated from His mothers Womb!

Once again- from JOhn 6:

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

These are Jesus words, not mine! I believe Him. So unless Jesus was talking about a specific individual named "no man" I take Him at His Word.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There are no deterministic verses... it's just the way you were taught to read them.

Actually you know no twhat you talk about! I was graduated from a Bible College that was big free will. (BTW they are no verses that say an unsaved man has the ability to choose or reject God) And I do not believe in the doctrine of determinism. Next time you say, I will call you out for intentionally lying! Election is not determinism. Learn what you are falsely accusing others of before you falsely accuse them.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes, we the born again, are the Elect, in the FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD.........

This means that God knows who will be saved and who wont be, before we are born.
This KNOWING is "foreknowledge", or knowledge BEFORE a thing happens.
This is God Knowledge, as God being able to do that....
However... God knowing a thing before it happens, is not God causing it.
See, Knowing is KNOWING>.....that is not the same as causing.

This means that God knows everything at all times, about everything.
That is not the same as causing everything at all times.
It means what it means......to KNOW BEFORE it happens...what will always happen. = God's Fore-Knowledge. = Knowledge of everything that happens before it happens.

The cult that has deceived you, can not comprehend that knowing a thing before it happens, (foreknowledge) is not the same as causing it.

Let me break it down for you.

God knew before i was born what i am writing to you right now, and God knew before you were born, what you would THINK about it, and how you would respond.
IN both of our cases, Ronald, God is not causing what we do, but in both of our cases, God knew what we would do. = FORE-KNOWLEDGE.

And see if you had read my posts while awake, you would have read I do not elieve god causes everything at all times! that is determinism which I reject soundly! AGAIN!!!! Election is not determinism.

foreknowledge is pro-gnosis knowing in advance by pre planning! Just like one does with a map on a trip (old school) You know where you are going in advance because you planned it.

You accuse me of being in a cult because you falsely accuse me of being a determinist. See I fully agree with your last two sentences! Next time set you r alarm clock when you wish to read my postings so you will not attribute to me something I do not believe in. Next time you do- you will be guilty of lying!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Right, because you made up your own doctrine.
"If" "then" statements do apply to salvation.

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, ( then) you will be saved;

If we confess our sins, ( then) He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I never said they don't. That is you misreading me again, because you have a predispositional bias against me.

I simp;ly said that is what has to be done to be saved. but they say nothing about how one gets to the place, or why they can even make that choice of "if,then".

Romans 10:9 is soteriological
1 John 1:9 is for believers only and for our experiential walk with God and has nothing to do with being saved or lost!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Predestination is simple. From the foundation of the earth, He (God) has predestined that those in Him (believers) are to be with Him in heaven, and unbelievers to be in Hell.

It is our choice. "choose you this day whom ye will serve."
.

The verse you quoted was for the elect of Israel! Now go back and look up one of the many times I posted the BIBLE verses( not my thoughts) that clearly show an unsaved will not ever choose God of their own nature!

And you are implying double predestination here which is heretical hyper -calvinism.

All are born condemned--Romans 5! No one is born saved, then lose their salvation and get it back again. God predestines the believer to believe! He chooses us not us HIm! Ephesians 1

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jos 24:15, And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rev 3:20, Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Rev 22:17, And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

JOsh is spoken to the elect people called Israel! Different dispensation with different rules.

The other three verses say nothing about free will or election. They are subjunctive passages giving the realm or potential. The reason being is it is a simple announcement that whoever does A then B happens. And as names are not listed- it is an indefinite thing that just simply means whoever does it gets it! Once again these say nothing about how one comes to be able to make those decisions, how they overcame their own fallen nature which would never choose God as Scripture says.

But nice try.

You only say that because you know that Joshua 24:15 defeats your understanding.

Please don't ever go late night with an 800 number saying you have ESP- you really are lousy at reading minds.

Seems to me like you have subscribed to a pagan religion that is quickly gaining credibility in our culture; propagated by the Star Wars franchise.

If you can't recognize a joke- you have issues that my training as a board certified counselor cannot help you with. Or are you just trying to find any way to bash me that you can.

 

[Renniks]

Yes we choose sin. I never implied otherwise!

Once again all you are using as a defense is logic and philosophy, but not the bible.

And Paul said He was separated from His mothers Womb!

Once again- from JOhn 6:

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

These are Jesus words, not mine! I believe Him. So unless Jesus was talking about a specific individual named "no man" I take Him at His Word.

None of those verses tell us that anyone is unconditionally chosen. And you are cherry picking verses instead of reading the whole passage. Of course God has to convict us. Of course God will raise up his sheep on the last day, but who are his sheep? Those who listen and follow him... Those who enter the sheep fold through him. If we don't listen, enter and follow, or cease doing so, we are no longer his sheep. Jesus is being very evangelistic in those passages, he's not just for berating the Pharisees, for not being chosen by God, like some kid pulling wings off flies. God's desire is for all to be saved.

 

[Renniks]

Actually you know no twhat you talk about! I was graduated from a Bible College that was big free will. (BTW they are no verses that say an unsaved man has the ability to choose or reject God) And I do not believe in the doctrine of determinism. Next time you say, I will call you out for intentionally lying! Election is not determinism. Learn what you are falsely accusing others of before you falsely accuse them.

Of course individual election is determinism. Can I change my destiny if I'm chosen for hell? You are maybe a bit more inconsistent than the hyper calvinist, but it's the same on the important stuff.. you just embrace even more contradictions. Like you can't choose your eternal destiny but you can choose what socks to wear. As if that makes a bit of difference.

 

[Renniks]

I never said they don't. That is you misreading me again, because you have a predispositional bias against me.

That's exactly what you said. Go back and look.

 

[Renniks]

simp;ly said that is what has to be done to be saved. but they say nothing about how one gets to the place, or why they can even make that choice of "if,then".

Yes, it's what has to be done to be saved. No hidden clauses, no secret will of God to actually damn you even though he promised to save those who do such things. No hand behind his back holding your doom while he pretends to love you. That's what individual election is about. A deceitful God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

None of those verses tell us that anyone is unconditionally chosen. And you are cherry picking verses instead of reading the whole passage. Of course God has to convict us. Of course God will raise up his sheep on the last day, but who are his sheep? Those who listen and follow him... Those who enter the sheep fold through him. If we don't listen, enter and follow, or cease doing so, we are no longer his sheep. Jesus is being very evangelistic in those passages, he's not just for berating the Pharisees, for not being chosen by God, like some kid pulling wings off flies. God's desire is for all to be saved.

and who are those who listen and follow Him? the elect from before the foundation of the world. At least I am putting toins of SCripture out here- you seem content in making philosophical arguments instead. If this was a philodsophy class, fine, but we are talking about what teh bible say8s.

YOu still haven't answered about the billions of people who never had a choice because they never heard the gospel. They are lost and they couldn't even exercise your mystical free will.

Nor have you answered the bible verses that say an unsaved person CANNOT please god! That is the bible and not me! How can one choose Jesus which definitely pleases God if they live in a nature that CANNOT please God and as Paul even further said- do not even want to!

If you wish to accuse me of cherry picking- you made the allegation- now prove it or shut up!