Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[Ronald Nolette]

Of course individual election is determinism. Can I change my destiny if I'm chosen for hell? You are maybe a bit more inconsistent than the hyper calvinist, but it's the same on the important stuff.. you just embrace even more contradictions. Like you can't choose your eternal destiny but you can choose what socks to wear. As if that makes a bit of difference.

No it is not - google is your friend go look up determinism and learn things you don't know yet.

See you preach double predestination which I already said I rejected. Every one born is destined for hell (Romans 5).

There are no biblical contradictions. The only thing I contradict is human philosophy that wishes to cling to the idea it has something to bring to the salvation equation. We don't!

Well depending on what I am wearing- what socks I wear can be a big deal!

YOu were born lost- you stayed lost and then god saved you! You didn;t choose for god to call you, you didn't choose for God to convict you, you didn't choose to receive saving faith- these were all given to you!

YOu hold that teh human will in the case of being saved is supreme over Gods will! YOu paint god as some feeble old man on a rocking chair, going ----" I want this one saved in the worst way, but He said no. OH dear what can I do- His free will is stronger than my will so I guess He won't be saved!"

Which is funny because the BIBLE says the unsaved person is a slave to sin- slaves have no will- they serve their masters! YOur free will di dnot set you free Jesus did.

You want to share some glory with Jesus by saying Jesus didit all, but I still had a say in the matter. That is the height of human pride!

Yes, it's what has to be done to be saved. No hidden clauses, no secret will of God to actually damn you even though he promised to save those who do such things. No hand behind his back holding your doom while he pretends to love you. That's what individual election is about. A deceitful God.

but you willingly choose to ignore that you are already doomed and God is saving you from the doom all mankind is destined for. God doesn't have to damn you , you were already damned! He calls those to come to jesus and impels them to come to Him! That is the BIBLE and not mens opinion!

He elects us not we Him. He chooses us, not we HIm, He predestines us (marks us out in advance) Paul in romans 9 makes that clear.

It is not of him who WILLS or HIm who runneth, but of God who shows mercy!

That's exactly what you said. Go back and look.

Besides bearing false witness, now you are putting words in my mouth, or more properly on the screen and lying by saying I said them when I didn't? We are heading to an ignore here.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That's exactly what you said. Go back and look.

Go back and look at #486 and #493, I will gladly accept yoru apology for bearing false witness against me! YOu're welcome.

 

[Renniks]

Nor have you answered the bible verses that say an unsaved person CANNOT please god! That is the bible and not me! How can one choose Jesus which definitely pleases God if they live in a nature that CANNOT please God and as Paul even further said- do not even want to!

Of course an unsaved person can't please God unless he responds to God. Where's it say we can't respond to the Holy Spirit?
Of course "Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God." But does that mean that God just gives up talking to them? Not in my experience!
He isn't willing that any perish. 2 Peter 3:9

BTW, why would God convict someone who he didn't choose if individual election is correct?

God kept convicting me even though I rejected him multiple times. In your theology, God just zaps some people with faith, they have nothing to do with it.
Is that biblical? Hardly.
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."

God doesn't just Zap some people and bypass others. He would be unjust to blame us for our sin if that were so. It would be like blaming a goat for being a goat.

 

[Renniks]

and who are those who listen and follow Him? the elect from before the foundation of the world. At least I am putting toins of SCripture out here- you seem content in making philosophical arguments instead.

What I told you came directly from scripture. In John 10 those who enter through him listen to him and follow him are the sheep. They are not irresistibly caused to follow.

As far as chosen before the foundation of the world: We are chosen "in Him." This phrase means that Christ was the chosen one (Is. 42:1), and that believers participate in his chosenness because they are baptized into him when they believe (Eph. 1:13). God's election and predestination are based on his foreknowledge of our choice to believe in Christ (I Pet. 1:1,2; Rom. 8:29)

 

[Renniks]

YOu still haven't answered about the billions of people who never had a choice because they never heard the gospel. They are lost and they couldn't even exercise your mystical free will.

People before Christ came were saved by faith in the promise, even back to Cain and Abel, they obeyed the light that they were given. People always use the man who never heard the gospel as an example, but how does this help your position? Did God just choose not to choose all those who never heard? I would guess that anyone who is truly a seeker will find, because God isn't willing he should perish. But the Bible is largely silent on the issue.
I will say this; Calvinism makes evangelizing that person in the jungle pointless. He was either destined for having heaven or hell regardless in your theology. It makes having a burden for the lost silly IMO. If everyone is already predestined, no one is lost.

 

[Renniks]

YOu were born lost- you stayed lost and then god saved you! You didn;t choose for god to call you, you didn't choose for God to convict you, you didn't choose to receive saving faith- these were all given to you!

Lol, this is hilarious! If I was destined for either heaven or destined to be passed by, I could never be considered lost. No one could. That's deterministic, no matter how you want to spin it.
If I can't choose to receive God, why does he tell us we have to humble ourselves? A gift is not a gift if it's forcibly given, it's an obligation.

 

[Renniks]

He calls those to come to jesus and impels them to come to Him! That is the BIBLE and not mens opinion!

Where's it say that he impelled us?
Arminians believe in prevenient grace, that God is in the process of drawing non-believers to himself. It is God’s drawing that enables the sinner to believe. We differ with Calvinists in that 1)We believe scripture teaches that God gives a measure of genuine grace to everyone (Titus 2:11), and 2)We believe that grace is resistible. (John 5:34,39-40).

 

[Renniks]

Besides bearing false witness, now you are putting words in my mouth, or more properly on the screen and lying by saying I said them when I didn't? We are heading to an ignore here.

Did you go back and look? #489 wasn't even your post?

 

[justbyfaith]

(BTW they are no verses that say an unsaved man has the ability to choose or reject God)

While you may be able to dismiss these verses in your own thoughts with your unsound arguments, there are verses that teach that an unsaved man has the ability to receive or reject God.

Among them Joshua 24:15, John 1:12, Revelation 3:20, and Revelation 22:17.

The verse you quoted was for the elect of Israel!

Josh is spoken to the elect people called Israel!

How were these people born again of the Holy Spirit, since they were able to make a free will choice as to whether or not they would serve the LORD?

Is it not your contention as a Calvinist that no one can make a free will choice to serve God unless they are already born again of the Holy Spirit?

But the Holy Spirit was not even given until after Jesus rose from the dead (John 7:39).

 

[Cooper]

The verse you quoted was for the elect of Israel! (Ronald Nolette)

That includes me. I am an elect of Israel.
As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
(Romans 9:25)

I have the right, honour and privilege to choose Christ, as does everyone, and from the moment I chose Christ, God predestined me to live with Him eternally.

The default position of the unbeliever is that their unbelief predestines them to an eternity in Hell.

But God provided a way of escape. He gave us the opportunity to choose Christ and I CHOSE CHRIST.

This is the message to all people across the world. "WHOEVER WILL" can do the same as I did and be an elect of Israel.
.

 

[Behold]

foreknowledge is pro-gnosis knowing in advance by pre planning! !

You teach "pre-planning", and that is CODE for....>"God chose it".

This is "cult" teaching that "pre-destined" means, God chose for Heaven, some, but does not offer it to ALL.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Of course an unsaved person can't please God unless he responds to God. Where's it say we can't respond to the Holy Spirit?
Of course "Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God." But does that mean that God just gives up talking to them? Not in my experience!
He isn't willing that any perish. 2 Peter 3:9

BTW, why would God convict someone who he didn't choose if individual election is correct?

God kept convicting me even though I rejected him multiple times. In your theology, God just zaps some people with faith, they have nothing to do with it.
Is that biblical? Hardly.
"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me."

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."

God doesn't just Zap some people and bypass others. He would be unjust to blame us for our sin if that were so. It would be like blaming a goat for being a goat.

1. Responding to God pleases God! How can an unsaved person do that in light of Gods Word on it?

2. Matt. 7 god has no relationship with those who are lost. John 3:36

3. Who says God convicts those whom He doesn't choose? What about teh billions whom never heard the gospel> You haven't even bothered to address that yet. They get no choice at all!

4. Took me years to say yes to god. I don't understand how God works. I just know He chose me- not the other way around.

5. YOur two verses once again are simple statements of fact! the if/then scenario. but this says nothing about what it took to get them to receive or open. what process took place, or how they were brought to that place. It just simply say8s that whoever (an unknown quantity) will receive- they get saved!

6. god has bypassed untold billions over the years. All who never hear the gospel are lost! so they got bypassed by god!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What I told you came directly from scripture. In John 10 those who enter through him listen to him and follow him are the sheep. They are not irresistibly caused to follow.

As far as chosen before the foundation of the world: We are chosen "in Him." This phrase means that Christ was the chosen one (Is. 42:1), and that believers participate in his chosenness because they are baptized into him when they believe (Eph. 1:13). God's election and predestination are based on his foreknowledge of our choice to believe in Christ (I Pet. 1:1,2; Rom. 8:29)

Yes they are irresistibly drawn that is exactly what Jesus said in John 6.

YOu need to learn what predestination (prognosis) means and how it is used.

You are using a mans definition.

And once again yo uhave God as some senile dawdling old coot sitting on a rocker saying: I really wanted that person saved and that nation saved, but they said NO! Their will is stronger than mine! Where is that in Scripture.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

People before Christ came were saved by faith in the promise, even back to Cain and Abel, they obeyed the light that they were given. People always use the man who never heard the gospel as an example, but how does this help your position? Did God just choose not to choose all those who never heard? I would guess that anyone who is truly a seeker will find, because God isn't willing he should perish. But the Bible is largely silent on the issue.
I will say this; Calvinism makes evangelizing that person in the jungle pointless. He was either destined for having heaven or hell regardless in your theology. It makes having a burden for the lost silly IMO. If everyone is already predestined, no one is lost.

But we are talking about the church age now! they had to have a relationship with God!

In the church age the bible is specific- unless you believe jesus is Lord and believe the Father raised Him from the dead- y0u can't be saved. Except of course you are of that human religion that believes in three ways of salvation.

1. Babies dying before "the age fo accountability".
2. People who never heard teh gospel getting saved by following their fallen conscience
3. Trust in the death of Jesus.

This is not a biblical faith.

YOu are entitled to your opinion about what you think election pointless towards soul winning or not. But being one who knows the truth that it is God who chooses us and not us Him- I have shared the gospel on three continents, been a jail chaplain, shared on the streets, radio, tv. newspapers.
I share the gospel because first and foremost- to obey Jesus! Secondarily it is to go out and bring in the lost sheep and harvest the wheat!

YOUr last sentence is the standard lie given by Arminius thinkers. I have been to china twice and led several to christ in communist china!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Lol, this is hilarious! If I was destined for either heaven or destined to be passed by, I could never be considered lost. No one could. That's deterministic, no matter how you want to spin it.
If I can't choose to receive God, why does he tell us we have to humble ourselves? A gift is not a gift if it's forcibly given, it's an obligation.

Well this is not the place to start a theological discourse about the paradox of the elect being saved before the foundation of the world and yet lost until they received Christ! If you wish you can start a thread and I will gladly show you the Scriptures to show that is true.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Where's it say that he impelled us?
Arminians believe in prevenient grace, that God is in the process of drawing non-believers to himself. It is God’s drawing that enables the sinner to believe. We differ with Calvinists in that 1)We believe scripture teaches that God gives a measure of genuine grace to everyone (Titus 2:11), and 2)We believe that grace is resistible. (John 5:34,39-40).

Teh bible teaches two kinds of Grace. The outward general call of the gospel to all and the inward call that impels the elect.

Where does it say?

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Transliteration
helkō αἱρέω (G138)
Greek Inflections of ἕλκω εἷλκον — 1x
εἵλκυσαν — 1x
εἵλκυσεν — 2x
ἕλκουσιν — 1x
ἑλκύσαι — 1x
ἑλκύσῃ — 1x
ἑλκύσω — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: xxi. σύρω, ἕλκω.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 8x
The KJV translates Strong's G1670 in the following manner: draw (8x).
Outline of Biblical Usage G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw. Compare G1667.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon Acts 21:30); future ἑλκύσω [ἑλκ. Rec.elz John 12:32]; 1 aorist εἵλκυσα ([infinitive (John 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, -κύσαι Rst G Tr]; cf. Bttm. Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii., p. 171; Krüger § 40, under the word; [Lob. Paralip., p. 35f; Veitch, under the word]); from Homer down; Sept. for מָשַׁך; to draw;
1. properly: τὸ δίκτυον, John 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, John 18:10 (Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινά, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τὴν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, James 2:6 (πρὸς τὸν δῆμον, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as

the word draw here is a strong word. It does not mean woo or entice- but powefully drag or draw or impel.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Did you go back and look? #489 wasn't even your post?

My bad, I think it was #490.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

While you may be able to dismiss these verses in your own thoughts with your unsound arguments, there are verses that teach that an unsaved man has the ability to receive or reject God.

Among them Joshua 24:15, John 1:12, Revelation 3:20, and Revelation 22:17.





How were these people born again of the Holy Spirit, since they were able to make a free will choice as to whether or not they would serve the LORD?

Is it not your contention as a Calvinist that no one can make a free will choice to serve God unless they are already born again of the Holy Spirit?

But the Holy Spirit was not even given until after Jesus rose from the dead (John 7:39).

I never said they were born again.
In the church age, yes they must be born again.
The Holy Spirit was given, just not indwelling, but on dwelling.

 

[Cooper]

Teh bible teaches two kinds of Grace. The outward general call of the gospel to all and the inward call that impels the elect.

Where does it say?

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Transliteration
helkō αἱρέω (G138)
Greek Inflections of ἕλκω εἷλκον — 1x
εἵλκυσαν — 1x
εἵλκυσεν — 2x
ἕλκουσιν — 1x
ἑλκύσαι — 1x
ἑλκύσῃ — 1x
ἑλκύσω — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: xxi. σύρω, ἕλκω.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 8x
The KJV translates Strong's G1670 in the following manner: draw (8x).
Outline of Biblical Usage G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw. Compare G1667.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon Acts 21:30); future ἑλκύσω [ἑλκ. Rec.elz John 12:32]; 1 aorist εἵλκυσα ([infinitive (John 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, -κύσαι Rst G Tr]; cf. Bttm. Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii., p. 171; Krüger § 40, under the word; [Lob. Paralip., p. 35f; Veitch, under the word]); from Homer down; Sept. for מָשַׁך; to draw;
1. properly: τὸ δίκτυον, John 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, John 18:10 (Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινά, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τὴν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, James 2:6 (πρὸς τὸν δῆμον, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as

the word draw here is a strong word. It does not mean woo or entice- but powefully drag or draw or impel.

Despite everything God did, he failed to draw Israel to him.
.

 

[justbyfaith]

1. Responding to God pleases God! How can an unsaved person do that in light of Gods Word on it?

What, again, is the biblical basis for this argument?

Yes they are irresistibly drawn that is exactly what Jesus said in John 6.

No; for the Holy Spirit (and grace) can be resisted (Acts of the Apostles 7:51).

3. Trust in the death of Jesus.

This is not a biblical faith.

I beg your pardon?

Are you denying what is written in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?

I have been to china twice and led several to christ in communist china!

See Ephesians 2:8-9, Isaiah 57:12.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice it does not say that if the Father draws a man they are guaranteed to come to Him.

I never said they were born again.
In the church age, yes they must be born again.
The Holy Spirit was given, just not indwelling, but on dwelling.

So, how did they make a decision to serve the LORD if they weren't born again?

Is it not your contention as a Calvinist that men cannot make free will decisions unless they have already been born again?