Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[Ronald Nolette]

That includes me. I am an elect of Israel.
As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
(Romans 9:25)

I have the right, honour and privilege to choose Christ, as does everyone, and from the moment I chose Christ, God predestined me to live with Him eternally.

The default position of the unbeliever is that their unbelief predestines them to an eternity in Hell.

But God provided a way of escape. He gave us the opportunity to choose Christ and I CHOSE CHRIST.

This is the message to all people across the world. "WHOEVER WILL" can do the same as I did and be an elect of Israel.
.

Not even close!

Unless you are a child from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, you can never be the elect of Israel.

Predestination and election occurred before the world was created so you are off in your timing by about 6,000 years.

Unbelievers are not pre-destined. NO where in the bible will you see the lost being predestined. The entire world was placed under condemnation (Romans 5) so all are destined- not predestined. Predestination is only calling out the elect.

Remember you cannot choose Christ until God the Father impels you to jesus.

 

[Cooper]

Not even close!

Unless you are a child from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, you can never be the elect of Israel.

Predestination and election occurred before the world was created so you are off in your timing by about 6,000 years.

Unbelievers are not pre-destined. NO where in the bible will you see the lost being predestined. The entire world was placed under condemnation (Romans 5) so all are destined- not predestined. Predestination is only calling out the elect.

Remember you cannot choose Christ until God the Father impels you to jesus.

So now the whole world is destined, but not predestined!
.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You teach "pre-planning", and that is CODE for....>"God chose it".

This is "cult" teaching that "pre-destined" means, God chose for Heaven, some, but does not offer it to ALL.

Well calling it a cult only debases and demeans you but so be it.

Predestined means exactly that if you took time to go to the Greek and learn its usage. Same with elect and foreknowledge.

It is cult teaching that says Gods foreknowledge is based on His knowing what we would choose.

The unsaved man has no capacity in themselves to choose god as I showed in the multiple verses from Gods Word.

The gospel goes out to all! To the elect it brings salvation, to the lst it testifies of their condemnation.

1. 2 Corinthians 2:15
   For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 2 Corinthians 2:16
   To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

YOu and REnnicks and Cooper have yet to answer the biblical facts of these verses:

Rom. 7:
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom. 8:
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Cor. 2:
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom. 9:
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Given all these absolute truths, how can an unsaved person who is:

Eph. 2:
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Have a will that will receive christ and please God seeing how they are 100% in the flesh???????????????????????????????

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No; for the Holy Spirit (and grace) can be resisted (Acts of the Apostles 7:51).

Yes by believers. the unsaved has no desire to follow the spirit, they by default resisit teh spirit according to Gods Word.

What, again, is the biblical basis for this argument?

YOu think it displeases God?

I beg your pardon?

Are you denying what is written in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?

You cut and pasted my words to make a false witness.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So now the whole world is destined, but not predestined!

Only believers are predestined according to the bible!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Despite everything God did, he failed to draw Israel to him.
.

Well He always had a remant.

AND
In the last days He will bring the surviving 1/3 of Israel into faith in Jesus!

Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Zechariah 13:8-9
King James Version

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Romans 11:25-28
King James Version

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

 

[Cooper]

Only believers are predestined according to the bible!

So Jesus did not come to seek and to save the lost, he came to the predestined!

This is plain silly.
.

 

[Cooper]

Well He always had a remant.

AND
In the last days He will bring the surviving 1/3 of Israel into faith in Jesus!

Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Zechariah 13:8-9
King James Version

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Romans 11:25-28
King James Version

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

In the meantime millions of the elect have perished in hell after God failed to IRRESISTIBLY draw his chosen people to him.

I could weep at what I am reading.
.

 

[justbyfaith]

You think it displeases God?

No, I am asking for the biblical basis for the idea that unsaved people cannot please God.

Because I want you to take a closer look at the scriptures that you are thinking of.

You cut and pasted my words to make a false witness.

What did you mean when you said that believing in Jesus' death is not a biblical faith?

 

[Renniks]

YOu are entitled to your opinion about what you think election pointless towards soul winning or not. But being one who knows the truth that it is God who chooses us and not us Him- I have shared the gospel on three continents, been a jail chaplain, shared on the streets, radio, tv. newspapers.
I share the gospel because first and foremost- to obey Jesus! Secondarily it is to go out and bring in the lost sheep and harvest the wheat!

Good for you, but what I said still stands: If everyone is already predestined, no one is lost. Lost Sheep? How can anyone be considered lost if they are predestined to go to heaven? Is there another option? Not in your theology!

 

[Renniks]

Well this is not the place to start a theological discourse about the paradox of the elect being saved before the foundation of the world and yet lost until they received Christ! If you wish you can start a thread and I will gladly show you the Scriptures to show that is true.

Why? Isn't this a thread about Arminianism and Calvinism? And that's not a paradox, it's a direct contradiction.

 

[Renniks]

Teh bible teaches two kinds of Grace. The outward general call of the gospel to all and the inward call that impels the elect.

Where does it say?

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Transliteration
helkō αἱρέω (G138)
Greek Inflections of ἕλκω εἷλκον — 1x
εἵλκυσαν — 1x
εἵλκυσεν — 2x
ἕλκουσιν — 1x
ἑλκύσαι — 1x
ἑλκύσῃ — 1x
ἑλκύσω — 1x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: xxi. σύρω, ἕλκω.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 8x
The KJV translates Strong's G1670 in the following manner: draw (8x).
Outline of Biblical Usage G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw. Compare G1667.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon Acts 21:30); future ἑλκύσω [ἑλκ. Rec.elz John 12:32]; 1 aorist εἵλκυσα ([infinitive (John 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, -κύσαι Rst G Tr]; cf. Bttm. Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii., p. 171; Krüger § 40, under the word; [Lob. Paralip., p. 35f; Veitch, under the word]); from Homer down; Sept. for מָשַׁך; to draw;
1. properly: τὸ δίκτυον, John 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, John 18:10 (Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινά, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τὴν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, James 2:6 (πρὸς τὸν δῆμον, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as

the word draw here is a strong word. It does not mean woo or entice- but powefully drag or draw or impel.

For you definition to hold up, John’s usage must mean to compel or force.
” Kittel (the one-volume abridged edition of Kittel’s massive ten volume work) had to say on “draw,”
The basic meaning is “to draw,” “tug,” or, in the case of persons, “compel.” It may be used for “to draw” to a place by magic, for demons being “drawn” to animal life, or for the inner influencing of the will (Plato). The Semitic world has the concept of an irresistible drawing to God (cf. 1 Sam. 10:5; 19:19ff.; Jer. 29:26; Hos. 9:7). In the OT helkein denotes a powerful impulse, as in Cant. 1:4, which is obscure but expresses the force of love. This is the point in the two important passages in Jn. 6:44; 12:32. There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God or Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic.

The compulsion is not automatic? But this is exactly what Sproul and other Calvinists argue that helkuo means in John 6:44 — God literally and irresistibly compels, drags, or forces the elect to come to Christ. Yes, helkuo can literally mean drag, compel, or force in certain contexts (John 18:10; 21:6,11; Acts 16:19; 21:30; and James 2:6), but it is not the lexical meaning for the context of John 6:44, nor for that manner, John 12:32.

(Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words,)

"HELKUO, to draw, differs from suro as drawing does from violent dragging…This less violent significance, usually present in helko, but always absent from suro, is seen in the metaphorical use of helko, to signify drawing by inward power, by Divine impulse, John 6:44; 12:32. (328)
Here, the very connection that Calvinists often like to make (that helkuo in Jn. 6:44 has reference to violent dragging) is plainly discounted.

"I have no problem with the idea that the drawing spoken of in John 6:44 is a “strong drawing”. But I do have a problem with speaking of it as a “forceful attraction”. A word used literally may have a causal force when dealing with physical relationships. However, we cannot require that that word have the same causal force when it is used metaphorically with reference to an influence and response relationship. John 6:44 speaks of a personal influence and response relationship." (F. Leroy Forlines, The Quest for Truth, pg. 386

An accurate paraphrase of Jn 6:44 from a Calvinist view point would be,

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me first gives him life.”

But that's not what it says.

So, according to Reformed doctrine, no one can “come” unless they are first regenerated [i.e. given life]. Only those who have first been given spiritual life can “come” to Christ. While this interpretation may line up with the teachings of Calvinism, it renders nonsensical two related passages in the gospel of John. Consider John 5:40,

“And you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life”

Jesus tells these Jews that having life is the result of coming to Him. Calvinism teaches that coming to Jesus is the result of already having life! If the Calvinist interpretation of Jn. 6:44 is accurate then Jesus should have said,

“And you are unwilling to come to Me because you have not been given life.”

 

[Kermos]

Nonsense. Let's look at what Arminians and the Bible actually teach:

John 3:16-17 ??For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.??

John 3:36 ??He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.??
God desires all persons to be saved. This is not a hypothetical desire, or a desire which is overruled by God??s other decrees as in Calvinism.

The Lord isn??t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.

God actually wants all people (literally, everyone) to be saved. As a result of this desire of God, Jesus died for the whole world. This is commonly referred to as universal atonement.

1 John 2:2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins??and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

Every Person Can Accept or Reject Jesus Christ
Another important part of Arminian theology is that it teaches that all people are able to exercise faith in Christ, or meet the conditions of salvation. In contrast to Calvinism, which teaches that only the elect can believe in Jesus, Arminianism teaches that each person has the ability to accept or reject Christ.
God has extended prevenient grace to all people which enables all people to make a choice about Jesus, whether to accept him or reject him. Every person has enough grace in their life to make a decision for or against God.

Titus 2:11 (NIV) For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

Predestination is based upon God??s foreknowledge.

Romans 8:29 For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Many Arminians teach that if a Christian renounces their belief in Jesus they can lose their salvation.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened??those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come?? and who then turn away from God.

The Word of God teaches:

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), so, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is by/of/through God

The "believes" in John 3:16-17 and John 3:36 are dependent upon God, not man. No place, not once, does the Bible indicate that man manipulates faith/belief of man; on the other hand, the Bible does indicate that God manipulates the faith/belief of man (John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-10).

Your interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:3-4 leads to a god that does not get what that god wants, so this goes right back to the previous, Scripturally accurate post that God had me proclaim to you in this thread.

I'm glad you brought up 1 John 2:2 which states "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

I find it very telling that you failed to include the word "whole" in your citation of 1 John 2:2.

In case you did not know, I'd like to point out that the phrase "the whole world" is mentioned twice in 1 John. That's the same book that you cited, Renniks.

The Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19). Applying your interpretation of "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 into the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 means that all the children of God lie in the evil one because you say "the whole world" means every person without exception.

John was writing to God's own persons in 1 John, so the context is believers. This means the letter is contextually from the perspecive of believers. This affects the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 such that "the whole world" refers to the chosen of God (John 15:16, John 15:19) who are yet to be imparted faith/belief in the Son of God whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

The children of God do not lie in the evil one, so "the whole world", or just "world", does not mean every person without exception; furthermore, Christ is the propitiation for we believer's sins, and not only for our sins, but also for the sins of persons yet to be imparted belief/faith in the Jesus whom God has sent (John 6:29), so "the whole world", or just "world", does not mean every person without exception.

Since, as you wrote, "Many Arminians teach that if a Christian renounces their belief in Jesus they can lose their salvation", then many Arminians do not receive the saysing of Lord Jesus Christ Who states "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28). It appears that many Arminians reject Christ. Christ reveals Himself to man with His sayings!

A person who does not receive the Christ's words is not a Christian for the Christ says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

According to Greek manuscript, your English translation of Hebrews 6:4-6 is in error. I plan to make a subsequent post about this matter.

 

[Kermos]

This is a continuation from post #533 to explain Hebrews 6:4-6 which is a passage you cited in your post, Renniks:

Nonsense. Let's look at what Arminians and the Bible actually teach:

John 3:16-17 ??For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.??

John 3:36 ??He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.??
God desires all persons to be saved. This is not a hypothetical desire, or a desire which is overruled by God??s other decrees as in Calvinism.

The Lord isn??t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.

God actually wants all people (literally, everyone) to be saved. As a result of this desire of God, Jesus died for the whole world. This is commonly referred to as universal atonement.

1 John 2:2 He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins??and not only our sins but the sins of all the world.

Every Person Can Accept or Reject Jesus Christ
Another important part of Arminian theology is that it teaches that all people are able to exercise faith in Christ, or meet the conditions of salvation. In contrast to Calvinism, which teaches that only the elect can believe in Jesus, Arminianism teaches that each person has the ability to accept or reject Christ.
God has extended prevenient grace to all people which enables all people to make a choice about Jesus, whether to accept him or reject him. Every person has enough grace in their life to make a decision for or against God.

Titus 2:11 (NIV) For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

Predestination is based upon God??s foreknowledge.

Romans 8:29 For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Many Arminians teach that if a Christian renounces their belief in Jesus they can lose their salvation.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened??those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come?? and who then turn away from God.

I recall reading Hebrews 6:4-6 before I knew what a Greek/English interlinear was. When I read that passage in the NASB, it threw me. According to the rendition, there is a point of no return for the Christian. I recall the pastor of the church that we attended had a book that had an explanation, but it was after God brought to my attention the Greek/English interlinear that the true meaning of Hebrews 6:4-6 shines through!

The Greek/English interlinear of Hebrews 6:4-6 is copied at the bottom of this post. I put in both Scripture4All.org and Biblehub.com copies along with both the KJV and NASB.

For the sake of clariity, here is the NASB of Hebrews 6:4-6

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and [then] have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame

Continuing for the sake of clarity, here is the Scripture4All word-for-word Greek to English translation of Hebrews 6:4-6

UN-ABLE for THE-ones ONCE BEING-enLIGHTenED TASTing BESIDES OF-THE gratuity OF-THE ON-heavenly AND WITH-HAVers BEING-BECOME OF-spirit HOLY AND IDEAL TASTing OF-God declaration ABILITIES BESIDES OF-beING-ABOUT AND BESIDE-FALLING AGAIN TO-BE-UP-NEWizING INTO after-MIND UP-impalING to-selves THE SON OF-THE God AND BESIDE-SHOWizING

We find that the NASB translators moved UN-ABLE (impossible) from verse 4 to verse 6. That is an unacceptable translation. The NIV adds quite a bit.

But, when we look at Hebrews 6:7-8 immediately subsequent to Hebrews 6:4-6, we find a compare and contrast, here is the NASB

For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

The Jews often repeat things, and Hebrews 6:7-8 is a form of repeat of Hebrews 6:4-6.

The compare and contrast is the positive in verse 7 "For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God" with the negative in verse 8 "but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned".

Let us return to the Hebrews 6:7-8 precursor which is Hebrews 6:4-6. Where is the positive in Hebrews 6:4-6? Well, the answer is this, that "Impossible for the ones once enlightened tasting the heavenly gift and become partakers of the Holy Spirit and goodness tasting of God's word power also coming age".

That's a powerful blessing (recall Hebrews 6:7), something is impossible for us believers!

What is the impossible thing? The answer lies in the contrast portion of Hebrews 6:4-6, that specifically is in Hebrews 6:6 "and fall away again restore to repeentance crucifying to themselves the Son of God"

That is a scary curse (recall Hebrews 6:8), yet that curse is impossible for us believers - see the very first word of Hebrews 6:4 which is "adynaton" in Greek and "impossible" in English (UN-ABLE in Scripture4All.org's English)!

Amazing is the point that Lord Jesus declares of His sheep "no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28).

And the Word of God says "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand" (John 10:29).

Behold how no one that is Jesus' own, not even a person can do to the person's self, can be snatched out of His hand, for His hand is powerful!

Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 6:7-8 are in accord with Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John!

FROM THIS POINT DOWN IN THIS POST IS REFERENCE ON A LINE BY LINE BASIS ABOUT HEBREWS 6:4-6

Chapter:Verse
Scripture4All Translation
Scripture4All Further Translation
BibleHub Strongs Number
BibleHub Greek Transliteration
BibleHub Translation
KJV
NASB

6:4
UN-ABLE for THE-ones ONCE BEING-enLIGHTenED TASTing BESIDES OF-THE gratuity OF-THE ON-heavenly AND WITH-HAVers BEING-BECOME OF-spirit HOLY
it-is-impossible the-ones the the celestial partakers

102 1063 3588 530 5461 1089 5037 3588 1431 3588 2032 2532 3353 1096 4151 40

Adynaton gar tous hapax photisthentas geusamenous te tes doreas tes epouraniou kai metochous genethentas Pneumatos Hagiou

[It is] impossible for to those once having been enlightened having tasted then of the gift - heavenly and partakers having become of [the] Spirit Holy

For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

6:5
AND IDEAL TASTing OF-God declaration ABILITIES BESIDES OF-beING-ABOUT
powerful-deeds of-impending

2532 2570 1089 2316 4487 1411 5037 3195 165

kai kalon geusamenous Theou rhema dynameis te mellontos aionos

and [the] goodness having tasted of God's word [the] power also [of the] coming age

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

6:6
AND BESIDE-FALLING AGAIN TO-BE-UP-NEWizING INTO after-MIND UP-impalING to-selves THE SON OF-THE God AND BESIDE-SHOWizING
falling-aside to-be-renewing repentance ones-crucifying-again to-themselves holding-up-to-infamy-him

2532 3895 3825 340 1519 3341 388 1438 3588 5207 3588 2316 2532 3856

kai parapesontas palin anakainizein eis metanoian anastaurountas heautois ton Huion tou Theou kai paradeigmatizontas

and then having fallen away again to restore [them] to repentance crucifying in themselves the Son - of God and subjecting [Him] to open shame

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

and [then] have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

 

[Renniks]

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), so, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is by/of/through God

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

He's telling them what they must do to be saved. He's not saying God does it all. That's backwards.

 

[Renniks]

The "believes" in John 3:16-17 and John 3:36 are dependent upon God, not man. No place, not once, does the Bible indicate that man manipulates faith/belief of man;

Total hogwash!
God believes on himself to save us? How do people come up with such nonsense?

Acts 16:30-31 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Acts 4:12 “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[Renniks]

Your interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:3-4 leads to a god that does not get what that god wants, so this goes right back to the previous, Scripturally accurate post that God had me proclaim to you in this thread.

I'm going by what scripture says. You are perverting scripture.

 

[Renniks]

The Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19). Applying your interpretation of "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 into the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 means that all the children of God lie in the evil one because you say "the whole world" means every person without exception.

The whole world does lie in the evil one. He's the prince of this world. We have to do something to come out of the world.

And not for ours only - It is not for us apostles that he has died, nor exclusively for the Jewish people, but περι ὁλου του κοσμου, for the whole world, Gentiles as well as Jews, all the descendants of Adam. The apostle does not say that he died for any select part of the inhabitants of the earth, or for some out of every nation, tribe, or kindred; but for All Mankind; and the attempt to limit this is a violent outrage against God and his word.

As for 1 John 5:19: it's ironic that you bring this up because calvinist use it to try and prove total depravity. John is saying the world lies in wickedness. It is covered in wickedness. This point would be identical to what John wrote earlier in his letter, that everyone is a sinner (1 John 1:8-10). That's true of us all.. however:
the NIV, which is heavily influence by Calvinistic scholars, chose the word “control.” This is the strongest of the possible words that could have been used here, as it implies that Satan is in complete control of this world and therefore, unregenerate unbelievers have no ability to understand, respond, or believe the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The NKJV, however, uses the much more ambiguous word “sway.
Even if we say that the verse is properly translated as Calvinistic theology requires, and we allow John to be saying that the “whole world is under the control of the evil one,” this does not mean that the whole world is unable to believe in Jesus for eternal life. Earlier in his letter, John has written about the “whole world” and has stated that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).

Even if the whole world lies under the control of the wicked one, Jesus has done what is necessary to liberate the whole world from the evil one so that they can respond to the gospel and believe in Jesus for eternal life (cf. 1 John 5:7-13).

 

[Kermos]

@Renniks, your claim of "Nonsense" is proven deception based on all of this. The following remains true and accurate Biblically:

The logical extant to your belief/faith, as you expressed in your post, about the "all" and "no one" in 2 Corinthians 5:13-16 leads to

1. universalism, that is, salvation including all people all over the earth without exception, yet universalism contradicts apostolic teaching such as God knows how to hold self-willed persons over to destruction in the day (2 Peter 2:9-10),
2. contextual destruction, that is, you escaping the context that Paul's letter to the Corinthians is to believers (2 Corinthians 1:1), so "we" and "us" are believers in 2 Corinthians as well as the "all" indicating all the children of God whether currently believing or are yet to believe according to the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24), and the "no one" means that the Word of God will not miss any of His own (John 10:27-30),
3. denial of Christ, that is, Paul wrote "the love of Christ controls us" (2 Corinthians 5:14), in the very passage you quoted Renniks, with the statement meaning that all good works, good fruit, is a function of the Holy Spirit of God in us believers (John 15:5), yet self-willed persons claim the good work of choosing Jesus, so such persons deny the very Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all believers in all time.

 

[Renniks]

Since, as you wrote, "Many Arminians teach that if a Christian renounces their belief in Jesus they can lose their salvation", then many Arminians do not receive the saysing of Lord Jesus Christ Who states "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28). It appears that many Arminians reject Christ. Christ reveals Himself to man with His sayings!

The verse doesn't say we can not leave God, only that no exterior force can snatch us from him. Giving the gift of life isn't forcing one to remain. I would be a jailer instead of a husband if I used force to keep my wife with me. God is a lover not a rapist.