Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[Renniks]

God works faith/belief in people (John 6:29), so saved persons bear fruit in obedience (John 15:16). Your claims are refuted by the Word of God.

Now, you mock the Potter by mocking the Potter's vessels of mercy (Romans 9:20-23) with your use of "puppets"!

This post about that Biblically indicates your belief/faith leads universalism, contextual destruction, and denial of Christ remains accurate.

In your theology, I could only mock God if he caused me to. So your own theology defeats your claim.

The potter said if a nation changes it's way and obeys the potter will change his mind about punishment of that nation.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So Jesus did not come to seek and to save the lost, he came to the predestined!

This is plain silly.
.

Well in your mind! But He came to seek the lost sheep! Not the goats. and who are the sheep? The ones the Father gave HIm like you and me.

He didn't come to turn goats into sheep or tares into wheat.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

In the meantime millions of the elect have perished in hell after God failed to IRRESISTIBLY draw his chosen people to him.

I could weep at what I am reading.
.

It should cause us all to weep! but if they are elect they have not perished! YOU seem to forget that as of now Israel is still is under a bill of dovorcement as a nation! The remant are part of teh one new man called the Body of Christ with the saved Gentiles.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What did you mean when you said that believing in Jesus' death is not a biblical faith?

I would never have said that.

No, I am asking for the biblical basis for the idea that unsaved people cannot please God.

Because I want you to take a closer look at the scriptures that you are thinking of.

Well let us look at it in its fuller context then:

Romans 8
King James Version

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Conclusion???? Anyone who lives in their human nature (the unsaved oir the carnal Christian) CANNOT please god! Trusting n Christ is something that pleases God so the unsaved man cannot choose that! 1 Cor. 2 also proves this!

Romans 3 also proves this.

Eph. 2 also proves this.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Word of God teaches:

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29), so, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is by/of/through God

The "believes" in John 3:16-17 and John 3:36 are dependent upon God, not man. No place, not once, does the Bible indicate that man manipulates faith/belief of man; on the other hand, the Bible does indicate that God manipulates the faith/belief of man (John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-10).

Your interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:3-4 leads to a god that does not get what that god wants, so this goes right back to the previous, Scripturally accurate post that God had me proclaim to you in this thread.

I'm glad you brought up 1 John 2:2 which states "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world" (1 John 2:2).

I find it very telling that you failed to include the word "whole" in your citation of 1 John 2:2.

In case you did not know, I'd like to point out that the phrase "the whole world" is mentioned twice in 1 John. That's the same book that you cited, Renniks.

The Apostle John wrote "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19). Applying your interpretation of "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 into the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 means that all the children of God lie in the evil one because you say "the whole world" means every person without exception.

John was writing to God's own persons in 1 John, so the context is believers. This means the letter is contextually from the perspecive of believers. This affects the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 such that "the whole world" refers to the chosen of God (John 15:16, John 15:19) who are yet to be imparted faith/belief in the Son of God whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

The children of God do not lie in the evil one, so "the whole world", or just "world", does not mean every person without exception; furthermore, Christ is the propitiation for we believer's sins, and not only for our sins, but also for the sins of persons yet to be imparted belief/faith in the Jesus whom God has sent (John 6:29), so "the whole world", or just "world", does not mean every person without exception.

Since, as you wrote, "Many Arminians teach that if a Christian renounces their belief in Jesus they can lose their salvation", then many Arminians do not receive the saysing of Lord Jesus Christ Who states "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28). It appears that many Arminians reject Christ. Christ reveals Himself to man with His sayings!

A person who does not receive the Christ's words is not a Christian for the Christ says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

According to Greek manuscript, your English translation of Hebrews 6:4-6 is in error. I plan to make a subsequent post about this matter.

So, in one case, the whole world refers to every unbeliever; but in another case within the context of the same book, the whole world refers to every believer?

Now you have this term meaning two things that are entirely opposite to one another!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Why? Isn't this a thread about Arminianism and Calvinism? And that's not a paradox, it's a direct contradiction.

Or a paradox if you are not already convinced of your presuppositions. I have been the elect since before God formed th eworld. Yet at teh same time I had to receive Christ in time to appropriate what god already declared for me!

Here, a free grammar lesson:

par·a·dox
/ˈperəˌdäks/

noun

1. a seemingly absurd or self-contradictory statement or proposition that when investigated or explained may prove to be well founded or true.

It is a parado

Good for you, but what I said still stands: If everyone is already predestined, no one is lost. Lost Sheep? How can anyone be considered lost if they are predestined to go to heaven? Is there another option? Not in your theology!

Well you are the one who is pushing determinism on everyone on this thread, not me! I just know that everyone is created lost! God chooses to save some.

It is your arrogance that makes you so blind. You should stop telling me what my theology demands. YOu are only making a fool of yourself and I wish not for that! Making instead of sucking at mind reading, you should ask questions instead and learn from the person you make false accusations of.

Hope you will start on that good path.

 

[justbyfaith]

I would never have said that.

But it seems to me that I quoted you as saying that.

So, what did you mean by your quote?

3. Trust in the death of Jesus.

This is not a biblical faith.

.
.
.

Well let us look at it in its fuller context then:

Romans 8
King James Version

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Conclusion???? Anyone who lives in their human nature (the unsaved oir the carnal Christian) CANNOT please god! Trusting n Christ is something that pleases God so the unsaved man cannot choose that! 1 Cor. 2 also proves this!

Romans 3 also proves this.

Eph. 2 also proves this.

It says that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God and says nothing about the drawing power of the Holy Spirit in this chapter.

Calvinism contends that a man must be regenerated (born again) before he can come to Christ;

But the truth is that we must come to Christ in order to become born again.

To as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them who believed on His name.

See that?

You do not have the power to become a child of God until after you have received Him.

If Calvinism were true, that verse would be telling us something entirely different: that "to as many as became the children of God, to them He gave the right to receive Him."

It is not only not what the scripture says, it is illogical by its very nature.

The reality is that no one can come to Christ unless the Father (the Holy Spirit) draws him. However, the drawing of the Holy Spirit does not = regeneration or being born again.

It is a halfway point between total depravity and being born again; wherein the Holy Spirit is working on you from the outside. He has not yet come to dwell inside of the person who has not made the decision to receive Christ.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

For you definition to hold up, John’s usage must mean to compel or force.
” Kittel (the one-volume abridged edition of Kittel’s massive ten volume work) had to say on “draw,”
The basic meaning is “to draw,” “tug,” or, in the case of persons, “compel.” It may be used for “to draw” to a place by magic, for demons being “drawn” to animal life, or for the inner influencing of the will (Plato). The Semitic world has the concept of an irresistible drawing to God (cf. 1 Sam. 10:5; 19:19ff.; Jer. 29:26; Hos. 9:7). In the OT helkein denotes a powerful impulse, as in Cant. 1:4, which is obscure but expresses the force of love. This is the point in the two important passages in Jn. 6:44; 12:32. There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God or Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic.

Gee, aren't you tired of creating strawmen and beating on them, then to have me tell you you are wrong bout what I say? You yourself with Kittel confirm what every other Greek Study shows: Helkos means compel. IN Songs, the Hebrew Word is masak which means about the same depending of form.

I never addressed with what or how or why one is drawn. Is it by Love? Absolutely! But it is an irresistible pull of love. to the drawn one, it can be being dragged (as I was) when they are not ready to surrender to His power yet.

"I have no problem with the idea that the drawing spoken of in John 6:44 is a “strong drawing”. But I do have a problem with speaking of it as a “forceful attraction”. A word used literally may have a causal force when dealing with physical relationships. However, we cannot require that that word have the same causal force when it is used metaphorically with reference to an influence and response relationship. John 6:44 speaks of a personal influence and response relationship." (F. Leroy Forlines, The Quest for Truth, pg. 386

YOu say potato, I say pota'to'. Strong drawing is forceful attraction.

John 21:6
And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

"DRAW" here is helko as well! It is a forceful action unless the construct shows it not to be!

Well the Word in John is not used metaphorically but it is a literal drawing to HImself. It is a literal sentence so you cannot have a metaphorical verb in a literal sentence. Especially in ight of teh fact we know people are literally drawn to others! Sorry but that answer doesn't fly it is not a physical dragging but an internal, either psychological, emotional, logical, or spiritual pulling towards.

 

[Renniks]

Well you are the one who is pushing determinism on everyone on this thread, not me! I just know that everyone is created lost! God chooses to save some.

No that's illogical. They are chosen, according to you, before they are created. At least own what your theology teaches. So they are born destined for salvation, therefore never lost. Jesus didn't have to die for them, really. If your fate is pre programmed, A sacrifice is unnecessary.

 

[Cooper]

It should cause us all to weep! but if they are elect they have not perished! YOU seem to forget that as of now Israel is still is under a bill of dovorcement as a nation! The remant are part of teh one new man called the Body of Christ with the saved Gentiles.

It needs for us to come to God.

 

[Renniks]

And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

"DRAW" here is helko as well! It is a forceful action unless the construct shows it not to be!

Well the Word in John is not used metaphorically but it is a literal drawing to HImself. It is a literal sentence so you cannot have a metaphorical verb in a literal sentence. Especially in ight of teh fact we know people are literally drawn to others! Sorry but that answer doesn't fly it is not a physical dragging but an internal, either psychological, emotional, logical, or spiritual pulling towards.QUOTE]
So which is it? You just said it was used as a physical drawing of the fish, then say its not a physical drawing. And a spiritual drawing towards something is irresistible? Nonsense! A Spiritual drawing can be literal but still be resisted. Otherwise, spiritual warfare is a myth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

But it seems to me that I quoted you as saying that.

So, what did you mean by your quote?



It says that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God and says nothing about the drawing power of the Holy Spirit in this chapter.

Calvinism contends that a man must be regenerated (born again) before he can come to Christ;

But the truth is that we must come to Christ in order to become born again.

To as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them who believed on His name.

See that?

You do not have the power to become a child of God until after you have received Him.

Id Calvinism were true, that verse would be telling us something entirely different: that "to as many as became the children of God, to them He gave the right to receive Him."

It is not only not what the scripture says, it is illogical by its very nature.

The reality is that no one can come to Christ unless the Father (the Holy Spirit) draws him. However, the drawing of the Holy Spirit does not = regeneration or being born again.

It is a halfway point between total depravity and being born again; wherein the Holy Spirit is working on you from the outside. He has not yet come to dwell inside of the person who has not made the decision to receive Christ.

But it seems to me that I quoted you as saying that.

So, what did you mean by your quote?



It says that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God and says nothing about the drawing power of the Holy Spirit in this chapter.

Calvinism contends that a man must be regenerated (born again) before he can come to Christ;

But the truth is that we must come to Christ in order to become born again.

To as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become the sons of God, even to them who believed on His name.

See that?

You do not have the power to become a child of God until after you have received Him.

Id Calvinism were true, that verse would be telling us something entirely different: that "to as many as became the children of God, to them He gave the right to receive Him."

It is not only not what the scripture says, it is illogical by its very nature.

The reality is that no one can come to Christ unless the Father (the Holy Spirit) draws him. However, the drawing of the Holy Spirit does not = regeneration or being born again.

It is a halfway point between total depravity and being born again; wherein the Holy Spirit is working on you from the outside. He has not yet come to dwell inside of the person who has not made the decision to receive Christ.

Well all you are doing is creating conditions on Calvinism as you go. But I am not worried so much about Calvinism but what Scripture says.

As for "If Calvinism is true" that is just you making stuff up! As the bible says almost nothing about teh pre-salvific work that goes onin the hearts of the elect, I take all your pontifications with great cynicism

Show me in the bible this "half way point" between total depravity and being born again! I have been reading the bible for over 46 years and haven't seen that spoken of yet.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No that's illogical. They are chosen, according to you, before they are created. At least own what your theology teaches. So they are born destined for salvation, therefore never lost. Jesus didn't have to die for them, really. If your fate is pre programmed, A sacrifice is unnecessary.

Once again, give up mind reading---YOU TRULY SUCK AT IT! That is not what my theology teaches- that is you bearing false witness against me. Tell you what. When you apologize for bearing false witness, we shall continue, but as long as you are intent in putting words in my mouth, I am not interested in pursuing what I thought was a great debate any further!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It needs for us to come to God.

HUH? I haven't a clue what you are getting at. sorry, but I can be thick as a brick sometimes. Especially when I am responding 25-30 times a day here to people. I can forget a train of thought with someone.

 

[justbyfaith]

Well all you are doing is creating conditions on Calvinism as you go. But I am not worried so much about Calvinism but what Scripture says.

As for "If Calvinism is true" that is just you making stuff up! As the bible says almost nothing about teh pre-salvific work that goes onin the hearts of the elect, I take all your pontifications with great cynicism

Show me in the bible this "half way point" between total depravity and being born again! I have been reading the bible for over 46 years and haven't seen that spoken of yet.

It is seen by implication in John 1:12.

If we are regenerated before we can come to Christ, then that verse should say,

"To as many as became the children of God, to them he gave the power to receive Him."

It does not say that. It says the opposite. And the statement is also an illogical statement.

It should be clear that the drawing of us by the Holy Spirit to Christ is not regeneration, also per John 1:12. We receive Him first, and then we have the power to become a child of God. It is not the other way around.

So, the fact that mankind cannot please God if he is in the flesh, means that in order to please God in receiving Christ, he must have an outward force be working on him so that he might be able to be helped to please God where he once had the inability to do so (see 2 Corinthians 6:1-2). This is the halfway point; being drawn to Christ...being helped by Him to make a decision to either receive or reject Christ that is both informed and unhindered by the enemy or the flesh.

 

[Grailhunter]

 

[Grunt Hemlock]

Calvinism is an aberration of the Gospel.

 

[Renniks]

Show me in the bible this "half way point" between total depravity and being born again! I have been reading the bible for over 46 years and haven't seen that spoken of yet.

John 1:9, which reads, “The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.”

The narrative of Scripture bears witness to a God who calls and pursues persons. He called Adam in the garden while he was hiding from the shame of sin (Gen. 3:9), Abraham out of his father’s house at Haran (Gen. 12:4), and Moses while he was busy tending his flock (Exod. 3:4). Jacob and Israel were chosen to bless the earth because of a promise to Abraham, not because they were significant (Rom. 9)

"From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 . From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.

This is prevenient grace. It reaches to all men, but not all respond positively.

 

[Renniks]

Once again, give up mind reading---YOU TRULY SUCK AT IT! That is not what my theology teaches- that is you bearing false witness against me. Tell you what. When you apologize for bearing false witness, we shall continue, but as long as you are intent in putting words in my mouth, I am not interested in pursuing what I thought was a great debate any further!

I never said you believe or think that, I said that's where your theology logically leads. Chill out!

 

[Grailhunter]