Calvinism vs. Arminianism

[Kermos]

What questions? My answers is that faith is the requirement of God. Without faith we can't please him. This is what Jesus was explaining. That their works weren't worth anything without faith in Jesus.

Here is just one question that I quoted from your post, "Why would Jesus tell them to do something he had to make them do?". That question of yours is you shaking your fist at God saying why have you made me like this (Romans 9:20-23).

You just wrote "That their works weren't worth anything without faith in Jesus", yet the very faith you that Jesus made He identified that faith/belief as the work of God, not as a choice by man, the King of Glory says faith/belief in Jesus is the work of God.

When Jesus says "This is the work of God, that you beleive in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)

1. Jesus explains that the whole thing of belief/faith in Jesus is the work of God.
2. Jesus removed man from the matter of exercising faith/belief in Jesus because the people asked "how do we work the works of God", yet King Jesus removed the work of a person since the Lord removed the "how do we work" in His answer to the people.
3. Jesus retained that faith/belief is a work, and He specifically identifed faith/belief as THE WORK OF GOD

This post Biblically indicates your belief/faith leads universalism, contextual destruction, and denial of Christ, and this post remains accurate.

 

[Kermos]

Behold is correct. God will hold you accountable for attributing evil to him. You need to repent of that false belief. That's what pagan religions believe. Ying and yang. Dark and light. No! God is light and in him is no darkness!

The Word of God says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

That word "evil" in English is "ra" in Hebrew, and we find "ra" in "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in Genesis 2:17.

This means that God says that God creates evil. You appear to have no problem contradicting the Word of God.

 

[Renniks]

Here is just one question that I quoted from your post, "Why would Jesus tell them to do something he had to make them do?". That question of yours is you shaking your fist at God saying why have you made me like this (Romans 9:20-23).

You just wrote "That their works weren't worth anything without faith in Jesus", and Jesus just told them that the only way a person can have faith in Jesus is because of the work of God.

When Jesus says "This is the work of God, that you beleive in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)

1. Jesus explains that the whole thing of belief/faith in Jesus is the work of God.
2. Jesus removed man from the matter of exercising faith/belief in Jesus because the people asked "how do we work the works of God", yet King Jesus removed the work of a person since the Lord removed the "how do we work" in His answer to the people.
3. Jesus retained that faith/belief is a work, and He specifically identifed faith/belief as THE WORK OF GOD

This post Biblically indicates your belief/faith leads universalism, contextual destruction, and denial of Christ, and this post remains accurate.

Nope... you are reading it backwards. When does God ever say asking questions is shaking your fist at him? He doesn't. Paul asks why a rebellious Jew talks back to God about God using his rebellion to reach the gentiles. You probably think this verse is about us, don't you? It's not. In fact, John 6 isn't really about us either, in context. It's about a group of hardeneded Jews and it's about the diciples. The Jews would get thier chance at salvation again after Jesus rose and maybe some would remember Jesus' teachings here about following him.

So, when Jesus said he will lose none given him by the Father, lost is not in some abstract, spiritual sense of salvation, but lost to the sword or prison before they could fulfill their mission. That’s the “losing” Jesus is talking about in John 6:39, and the Apostle John is telling you in John 18 that Jesus protected the Apostles from Roman violence/judgment to fulfill what Jesus said back in John 6. It’s right there. What mission? The mission Jesus just talked about in the high priestly prayer: to preach the Gospel. Not everything in the New Testament is about gentile believers 2000 years later.

 

[Grailhunter]

I think this baby smells your doctrine in his diaper.

 

[Renniks]

The Word of God says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7).

That word "evil" in English is "ra" in Hebrew, and we find "ra" in "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in Genesis 2:17.

This means that God says that God creates evil. You appear to have no problem contradicting the Word of God.

No, the proper interpretation is God creating calamity for rebellious people.

The conclusion of the scholars claiming that God is morally ambiguous if he originates both good and evil is irrefutable. Calvinists escape this conclusion only by the mere assertion that it is not so. In their view good and evil originate from God “in such a way” that God remains all good. What does it mean to say God is “all good” if it doesn’t rule out the possibility that he could do evil?
It's absurdity.
The Isaiah passage is addressing the future deliverance of the children of Israel out of Babylon (Isa. 45:1–6). As a number of scholars have argued, the “light” and “darkness” of this passages refers to “liberation” and “captivity”
God’s “creating” here is not ex nihilo, but action which gives specific shape to a situation of historical judgment.
In other words, God is judging people for their actions by allowing calamity to befall them.
It has nothing to do with God creating evil.

 

[Kermos]

In your theology, I could only mock God if he caused me to. So your own theology defeats your claim.

The potter said if a nation changes it's way and obeys the potter will change his mind about punishment of that nation.

God causes mockers, based strictly upon God's choosing for salvation (John 15:16, John 15:19), to become children of God by the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24), so your first paragraph shows that you disagree with Who the Word of God says He is (John 14:6). I don't know if you are one of God's chosen people, but right now, you are a mocker of the Potter.

You interpret Romans 9:20-23 such that the clay to be about the only about a nation as a whole, but that is your interpretation not in accord with the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:20-21) for individual persons are contextually accurate when we examine that Paul wrote "who are you, O man, who answers back to God" (Romans 2:20). Paul did not write "who are you, O nation", NO! Paul wrote "who are you, O man", so individual persons are the context of Romans 9:20-23.

This means that you mock the Potter by mocking the Potter's vessels of mercy (Romans 9:20-23) with your use of "puppets" in your post!

This post Biblically indicates your belief/faith leads universalism, contextual destruction, and denial of Christ, and this post remains accurate.

 

[Renniks]

God causes mockers, based strictly upon God's choosing for salvation (John 15:16, John 15:19), t

This isn't about salvation either. It's spoken to the diciples. Context, context!

 

[Renniks]

) for individual persons are contextually accurate when we examine that Paul wrote "who are you, O man, who answers back to God" (Romans 2:20). Paul did not write "who are you, O nation", NO! Paul wrote "who are you, O man", so individual persons are the context of Romans 9:20-23.

This means that you mock the Potter by mocking the Potter's vessels of mercy (Romans 9:20-23) with your use of "puppets" in your post!

I don't believe God makes puppets. That's your gig. You are mocking every verse that encourages us to believe or praises faith. Want to hear some?

• For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
  
  
• For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
  Luke 9:24
• For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
  Mark 8:35
• For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
  
  
• For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
  Romans 10:11
• Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
  1 John 4:15
• And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
  Acts 2:21
• And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
  Luke 9:48

 

[Kermos]

Like I said, no context. No commen sense. That verse is a problem for calvinists, though. Because if the world is in any way controlled by Satan, their whole system is wrong. They believe in a form of sovereignty where God controls everything at all times, not Satan. The whole world is everyone. If you say it's everyone but the children of God then you have to acknowledge that Christ died for all still in the world. See that? Your interpretation fails on every level.

You persist in evading the point. Since you say "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means every person everywhere can choose salvation, then your interpretation of "the whole world" has you, Renniks, as part of "the whole world" lying in the evil one per 1 John 5:19.

I am a Christian for I believe in Lord Jesus whom the Father has sent, and His words are eternal life (John 6:63). I am not a Calvinist.

No Christian lies in the evil one for the Apostle John wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13)

This means that "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 does not include the children of God for we are Christians.

This means that "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 does not include every person everywhere because Christians are not included.

This also means the word "world" does not have to mean every person everywhere when the word "world" is used in the Bible.

It is time to return to 1 John 2:2.

John was writing to God's own people in the First Letter of John (1 John), so the context is believers. This means the letter is contextually from the perspecive of believers. This affects the phrase "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 such that "the whole world" refers to the chosen persons of God (John 15:16, John 15:19) who are yet to be imparted faith/belief in the Son of God whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

Behold, John wrote "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2) - that "our" and the upcoming "our" are believers like I mentioned in the prior paragraph. John also wrote "and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" - that "the whole world" mentioned by John refers to the chosen persons of God (John 15:16, John 15:19) who are yet to be imparted faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

This post Biblically indicates your belief/faith leads universalism, contextual destruction, and denial of Christ, and this post remains accurate.

 

[Grailhunter]

The Bible discusses predestination. But you can take it too far. And the Bible does not field or defend against the most absurd accusations.

The Magi had an a great interest in Christ...they were witches and sorcerers. So someone could come up with the belief that Christ was a witch. He was accused of using the power of Satan to cast out demons.

Christ used his power to call up Moses and Elijah that had passed on, during the transfiguration. So again someone could come up with the belief that Christ was a medium or sorcerer.

Christ made wine out of water and He drank and ate with those that were considered unclean. So someone could come up with the belief that Christ was drunkard. And Christ commented on this.

When they brought a adulteress to him...she did not ask for forgiveness and he did not even condemn what she did. And some could say that He made light of the penitent prostitute that came to him saying...for she loved much. LOL So someone could come up with the belief that Christ supported prostitution.

Christ did not denounce slavery. Christ and Paul talked about slaves, but never condemned it. So someone could come up with the idea that Christ condoned slavery.

Christ told the Jews that Moses allowed them to divorce their wives because of the hardness of their hearts. So someone could come up with the belief that Christ was saying that the Mosaic Laws were the laws of a man, not God.

Miriam was engaged and found to be pregnant...according to Mosaic Law that is adultery. So someone could come up with the belief that Christ was born in sin.

With Ezekiel's flying machine and Christ ascending to the Father in front of everyone, someone could say that Christ was commanding a flying saucer.

The thing is, the scripture do not get into fielding or defending the most absurd ideas. Different things are discussed but the wacky side is not addressed. They are not expecting people to come up with the most crazy...hateful....blasphemous beliefs and then teaching all this to children. And the Bible does not have to defend against them....they will be awarded all that they deserve.....screaming their lungs out for eternity.

 

[Renniks]

You persist in evading the point. Since you say "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 means every person everywhere can choose salvation, then your interpretation of "the whole world" has you, Renniks, as part of "the whole world" lying in the evil one per 1 John 5:19.

That's correct. We are all born sinners. But again you are creating a conflict that simply isn't there if a person reads with common sense.

 

[Renniks]

Behold, John wrote "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2) - that "our" and the upcoming "our" are believers like I mentioned in the prior paragraph. John also wrote "and not for ours only, but also for the whole world" - that "the whole world" mentioned by John refers to the chosen persons of God (John 15:16, John 15:19) who are yet to be imparted faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (

That's an incredibly odd way to read the Bible, and I'm trying to be nice here. It means that basically the verse says that Jesus died not only for us but also for us.
The whole world is the whole world.

 

[Cooper]

Very familiar with that verse. It is a simply declaratory statement God said. It could be called the "general call" of the gospel or as REnnick said "prevenient grace"

But the same God who said this also told us that the super majority of the world will be lost, that people in darkness will not come to the light, that before Pentecost, Gentiles were without hope and without God in the world!

But as a remionder, this doesn't tell us how one can look to him and be saved, what power inlight of the verses I posted say overcomes their own nature to have them turn to god etc.etc.etc. Other verses let us know the who will look unto the Lord!

You can always know the cults from the way they dismiss some scriptures and major on others.
.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

1) free will is not mythical, it is a reality.

2) the scripture you are looking for has already been referenced. 2 Corinthians 6:1-2.



It says that they receive first and then receive the right to become children of God; not the other way around, as Calvinism teaches.

We do not become children of God first, and then receive; that is an illogical statement; and scripture places it in reverse order.

Well Paul is writing to believers and as I have repeatedly said, when a person is saved they have free will restored unto them.

Well I don't care what Calvinism teaches, I care about the Bible. and the bible says the unsaved man does not receive the things of God nor can they do anything that pleases god, nor is there any good thing in their human nature.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm wrong about where I believe your theology logically leads? So what? I should force myself to believe something I don't believe?

NO, you shouldn't! But you should not teach the bible declares the unsaved have free will and not bring about Scripture to show the unsaved man can choose god when the Bible clearly says they cannot!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You can not pretend Jesus gives light to every man in a theology that says most never receive any light. Loving darkness is a choice. We aren't forced to love darkness. The scripture you quoted indicates that men are to blame for loving darkness. In your theology God gives them no other option.

YOu err because you imply I say God forces people to love darkness and that is a lie!

People love darkness on their own and choose darkness by default due to our fallen nature!

Once again you bear false witness against me. It is not my theology and nor do I teach or believe your lie against me! People are born fallen and lost because we came from fallen parents who came from fallen parents etc. all the way back to Adam and Eve, We love darkness because as it says in GODS Word (not my theology)

Ephesians 2
King James Version

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


The bible declares most people do not receive the light. So you have a problem with the Word of God and not me!

We by nature choose darkness. Your problem is you disbelieve the clear teaching of the Word of God to rely on possible implications and maybes.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You don't understand what prevenient grace is then. Because it's going out to all. It frees men to respond or to reject the call... that's all on them. It's not irresistible grace.

So show a scripture verse desribing prevenient grace giving humanity which cannot please God according to His Word, the ability to please God. Not an implication or a philosophical conclusion, but a Scripture verse that shows God gives peoplea "neutral zone" where they can make a choice that will please HIm.

I can show you verses where it show's that God uses prevenient grace and causes rain to fall on the just and unjust, but I don't see grace opening up a "window of opportunity". or whatever you wish to call it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You can always know the cults from the way they dismiss some scriptures and major on others.
.

YOu need serious help. You are obsessed with cults. So anyone who disagrees with you is in a cult. Ok then Got it! There is the Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Cooper!

 

[Grailhunter]

Well Paul is writing to believers and as I have repeatedly said, when a person is saved they have free will restored unto them.

Well I don't care what Calvinism teaches, I care about the Bible. and the bible says the unsaved man does not receive the things of God nor can they do anything that pleases god, nor is there any good thing in their human nature.

So I wonder why God loves evil things?

 

[Renniks]

NO, you shouldn't! But you should not teach the bible declares the unsaved have free will and not bring about Scripture to show the unsaved man can choose god when the Bible clearly says they cannot!

Only it don't.