Sign Gifts Semi-Safe House

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dev553344

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I learn that dreams a lot of the times don't mean what I think they might. Dreams may hold warnings/words of knowledge/words of wisdom, but it can take one gifted in interpretation to bring it out. The Holy Spirit gives interpretation, but like Joseph, he was taught by his father. It isn't always a piece of cake to know what a dream means. I need to pray for interpretation more often. Just knowing interpretation brings greater responsibility I think. I think God would help me with that...but I really just want to be used by Him for His kingdom in whatever way is best. He can work in me to accomplish whatever He wills if I desire it. I desire the greater gifts. I just need to pray about it more, because I really want to be used in the areas I am needed most. I guess you call it helps, whatever. But I really do admire people like @Hidden In Him who is gifted in that area and knows how to present things well. The more you know, the more you grow.

My earthquake wasn't a dream, sorry I presented it that way, it was a vision. And with that I should add what I've learned: that dreams and visions, prophecies and revelations, in fact any gift, including knowledge and wisdom, can come from one of two sources, God or the devil (the father of lies). I think the discernment of that is a gift also, the gift of discernment of whether the gift is from God or the devil.

There has been times when I have received a vision and it concerned me, and God said to me, "it means nothing, ignore it", and I knew it was from the devil.
 
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Mayflower

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My earthquake wasn't a dream, sorry I presented it that way, it was a vision. And with that I should add what I've learned: that dreams and visions, prophecies and revelations, in fact any gift, including knowledge and wisdom, can come from one of two sources, God or the devil (the father of lies). I think the discernment of that is a gift also, the gift of discernment of whether the gift is from God or the devil.

There has been times when I have received a vision and it concerned me, and God said to me, "it means nothing, ignore it", and I knew it was from the devil.

Yes. Agree
 

Paul Christensen

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I totally agree with this statement.
It makes me sad that people always will try to find the negative in the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

It mostly comes from people who attend churches where they don't believe in the Gifts.

They say it's not for today. Bible says our Lord is the same yesterday, today and forever. He did not change.

Some people are “thoughtfully, willfully, and self-consciously rejecting the work of the Spirit.”
Their blasphemy is to deny the Spirit’s testimony and to knowingly ascribe it to some other (usually evil) source.
I certainly believe that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are for today's churches. They are gifts to the body of Christ and are not limited to Pentecostal and Charismatic churches. The purpose of the gifts is for the building up and strengthening of the body of Christ.

But I don't see a "gift" of falling down backwards, or jerking, shaking, convulsive laughter, gold dust falling from the ceiling. I don't see how those things actually strengthen or build up the body of Christ. From what I see, those things tend to bring a church into disrepute and drive people away from it.

If we are able to see more sick and diseased people healed, encouraged and strengthened through good prophecy, achieving great things for God through faith, setting people free through discerning of spirits, being mighty in prayer through tongues, then we can say, "The presence and power of the Holy Spirit is with us confirming the Word of God with signs following".

The problem is that the real power of the Holy Spirit has been replaced with pointless falling down, jerking, shaking, and public babbling away in tongues without interpretation. I call that the steam going out through the whistle instead of where it should go - through the driving wheels.
 
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Mayflower

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Has anyone had like daydreams? I started having something lately I can't label as a vision in front of my eyes, or like a dream at night. It is like flashes in my head, or set on my mind as being from God. I call it daydreams.

Like yesterday had a flash of a girl in my mind about 6 years old. She had black, curly hair in a pony tail and was sitting in the middle of the park.

I think it actually is hinting of my daughter's personality when she gets a little older, but I am not really sure. But it isn't something I can downright name as a vision, because it just came in my mind, but felt more uncontrolled, if that makes sense. That hasnt been the only one. Im just not sure what to think about them yet, because before I was saved, Id have daydreams all the time. They did not feel like this though. They felt demonic and were completely different.
 
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Paul Christensen

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It is interesting that on the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came and filled the 120, the description did not include falling backwards, jerking, shaking or convulsive laughter. They did speak in tongues, because it was a gathering for prayer and not a public meeting. But when the crowd outside heard the speaking in tongues, it was supernaturally interpreted to their ears in their own regional dialects. It wasn't vain, meaningless babbling. Similarly, with Cornelius' household and the 12 Ephesus disciples, we see them speaking in tongues and prophesying, but no mention of being "slain" in the Spirit, jerking or shaking or any other convulsive kundalini manifestations.

We have to take notice of how the presence of the Holy Spirit affecting people is described in the New Testament and base our discernment of what is or what is not the Holy Spirit based on that.
 

Mayflower

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Before we go further, can I suggest maybe hearing people's opinions, but taking discussion for or against these things in another area? I honestly really enjoy hearing the different experiences. It can just easily get to a place where one or two facts are then debated and the discussion takes a completely different turn....I can understand there are many different views on here.
 

dev553344

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Has anyone had like daydreams? I started having something lately I can't label as a vision in front of my eyes, or like a dream at night. It is like flashes in my head, or set on my mind as being from God. I call it daydreams.

Like yesterday had a flash of a girl in my mind about 6 years old. She had black, curly hair in a pony tail and was sitting in the middle of the park.

I think it actually is hinting of my daughter's personality when she gets a little older, but I am not really sure. But it isn't something I can downright name as a vision, because it just came in my mind, but felt more uncontrolled, if that makes sense. That hasnt been the only one. Im just not sure what to think about them yet, because before I was saved, Id have daydreams all the time. They did not feel like this though. They felt demonic and were completely different.

That sounds like a vision. The bible dictionary I found describes visions as:

Vision [N]

( Luke 1:22 ), a vivid apparition, not a dream (Compare Luke 24:23 ; Acts 26:19 ; 2 co 12:1 ).


What you're describing sounds like what I see, I don't see them with my eyes, but it's like a picture I see enough like it was with my eyes, like a dream, but I'm awake. So the apparition part is ghostly.

Edit: I should add that my vision is gone for the vision and all I can see is the vision, but it's not with my eyes.
 
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Hidden In Him

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Yes I remember that debate and the name of the other participant. I believe it was in that thread that you and me first started to get to know each other... I essentially agreed with you on the issue. The other person has been missing here for a good while now... We should keep him in prayer.


Amen. I went on to have it out with him a few times, but it's always amazing how you can miss people when they're gone. Not sure if they feel that way about me - I can leave a bad taste in people's mouths sometimes I guess - but I do hope he's blessed, wherever he is.
 

Hidden In Him

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I remember having friends in our local AOG church in Wellington NZ. They attributed every emotional problem as being a spirit of whatever. I disagreed with them over a doctrinal issue and was accused of having a spirit of variance! It sounded so ridiculous to me that I just laughed in his face.

Yep. Sounds like going overboard to me as well, Lol.
It appears to me that you need to be released from a soul bond with that person. It is that soul bond that holds you in bondage to that person. You may be free from him relationship wise, but there is still a spiritual bond that needs to be broken off you so that you can be free. A good book to read about breaking bondages is The Bondage Breaker, by Neill Anderson. You can download a PDF version of it. Going through the principles he outlines enables you to work with the Holy Spirit to regain your freedom in Christ. You don't need to sacrifice your privacy to anyone else because there are issues that are no one else's affair or business. I think we tend to bare our hearts to others when it is better to keep things between you and the Holy Spirit. Giving others free personal information about yourself can put you under a type of spiritual control from the person you share with.

I know the Scripture says that we should confess our faults to one another and pray for one another that we may be healed, but not every person can be trusted with deep personal information, and sharing with the wrong person can give them spiritual control over you.

That is my view for what it is worth.

This is an interesting concept for discussion. I'm not up to reading a whole book, but in your opinion how would one tell the difference between a bond that was of God and one that was purely soulish?
 

Hidden In Him

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I disagree that the "problem with Pentecostals and Charismatics" is seeing the Holy Spirit in everything that happens.

Pentecostals and Charismatics are not ignorant of Satan's devices, or what people's flesh can do.

In some cases and among some groups it can be true, especially hyper-spiritual types who are wanting to believe "God is moving" a lot more than He actually is, because they want to build their notoriety (and increase their offerings).
As far as attributing to the Holy Spirit things that are from demonic forces - I think that touches on the very definition of Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Paul comes from the perspective of having a rather healthy distrust of abuses of the gifts. I sometimes think his statements border on this as well, but we are certainly living in a time when too much is passing for the real thing when it isn't.
 

Paul Christensen

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Yep. Sounds like going overboard to me as well, Lol.


This is an interesting concept for discussion. I'm not up to reading a whole book, but in your opinion how would one tell the difference between a bond that was of God and one that was purely soulish?
When I read your post I immediately thought of David and Jonathan. I believe that was a bond of God, because they were totally loyal to each other and although they were not gay, it was described that their bond was stronger than that of a man and a woman. So, we have in the Bible the characteristics of a God-ordained bond between two people. Jonathan's loyalty to David was stronger than that to his own father Saul.

Another God-ordained bond is the one between the genuinely converted Christian to Christ. Loyalty to Christ transcends all other loyalties. Jesus said that those who love others more than they love Him are not fit for the kingdom of God. When people told Him that His mother and brothers were outside wanting to see Him, He asked, "Who are my mother and brothers? Those who are My disciples." [my paraphrase, but you get the point]

My view of a soulish bond is one formed by selfishness on one or both partners. Many romantic bonds are like that. The relationship lasts while it feels good and everything is going right, but as soon as problems and difficulties arise and the feeling of romance goes then the bond disintegrates. Usually one partner desires to break up the relationship more than the other, and so instead of there being a clean break, the aggrieved partner is unwilling to break the bond, and continues to stalk the other with the selfish intention of renewing the relationship.

There is a Bible passage where in David's time a woman was given in marriage, and then circumstances changes and the woman was taken away from her husband and given to someone else, and the former husband went after her weeping. I'm not sure where that Scripture is. It may have been during the conflict between David and Absalom. Of course, we an sympathise with the former husband and view taking his wife away from him as morally wrong. But then the Biblical history records everything warts and all.

Here is an interesting question: A young man in the church is attracted to a young woman named Grace. He prays about it and a Scripture comes to him, "Grace and peace be to you from Jesus Christ, the Son of God". So he interprets that to be that God has chosen Grace to be his wife. But Grace doesn't concur. So, if the young man becomes bonded to her and keeps on insisting that she is the one for him, is that a bond of God or is it soulish?
 
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Triumph1300

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Before we go further, can I suggest maybe hearing people's opinions, but taking discussion for or against these things in another area? I honestly really enjoy hearing the different experiences.

Good idea, because some people go into extremes
and classify "crazy behaviour" as normal in some churches.
And make that their focus to form an opinion.
(gold dust falling from the ceiling)

I am actually surprised snake handling
has not been thrown into the discussion.

It's like this: A guy buys a new BMW car and runs into all kinds of issues and spend time and money fixing it..... A bad experience to say the least. In his opinion BMW's are now lousy cars and he'll buy never another one.Yet BMW's are very fine cars.

And so it is in the church world.
 
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Paul Christensen

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In some cases and among some groups it can be true, especially hyper-spiritual types who are wanting to believe "God is moving" a lot more than He actually is, because they want to build their notoriety (and increase their offerings).


Paul comes from the perspective of having a rather healthy distrust of abuses of the gifts. I sometimes think his statements border on this as well, but we are certainly living in a time when too much is passing for the real thing when it isn't.
You are correct. I do have a healthy distrust of abuse of gifts because in my last Charismatic church in the 1970s I saw so much misuse of prophecy and word of knowledge by those who desired power and control over others. I saw others being told they were healed of their sickness when they remained sick, and I saw people casting demons out of those who had no demons in the first place. I was also in a meeting where the preacher lined up all those who had come forward in an altar call, and went from one to another laying hands on them making them fall down backwards one after another. There was no requesting by the preacher exactly what their needs were or why they came forward for prayer. One guy, whom we all knew had serious social and spiritual issues, went down with a loud shout, and then got up with the attitude, "See, I can do it too!" It looked so false. There was a "senior" elder who used to get up and prophesy "corrections" to the prophecies of others in the meetings. The church was run by a board of elders who were, in theory equal to one another, but this man thought that he was the senior elder and demanded that the others accept his overall control.

So, after seven years in that church and seeing all the falsehood, people not getting healed through all the healing meetings that took place, and the gossiping that went on, I become very disillusioned and left the church and the Charismatic movement. That was 1978.

Around 20 years later, I re-established contact with a friend who founded a prophetic ministry. He taught the correct use of the gifts, and this was like a breath of fresh air for me. He ran a fortnightly "equipping" meeting and bi-monthly prophetic days, where he and his team trained people in the correct use of the gifts, and had group workshop sessions to put the teaching into practice. The Holy Spirit would become involved in those sessions, and we saw some good things happening. This restored my faith in the present day gifts of the Spirit. It is interesting that sensual and physical manifestations were not encouraged as evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit.

In fact, the elderly pastor of the Pentecostal mission church (not one in the Charismatic church) I attended as a 21 year old in the early 1970s taught that if the Holy Spirit was present, people got healed, demons were cast out, and prophecies were clearly seen as encouraging and upbuilding love letters from God. He believe that when he prayed in tongues, things happened, and they did. The only time I witnessed the glory of God coming down in a meeting was under that man's ministry. But there were no kundalini manifestations, rather than people fell on their knees weeping their hearts out to God and getting right with Him, the fallow ground in their hearts broken up and softened before Him.

I never saw any of that in the Charismatic church I attended from 1973-1978. It is interesting that after 20 years of being in non-Charismatic churches, that the teaching and mentoring of the elderly pastor came back to me, while the teaching and example of those in the later Charismatic church faded into forgetfulness.

So that gives some clue as to my attitude toward sensual manifestations. The Holy Spirit told me that if people are looking for sensual manifestations, the devil is always there to give them one.
 
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Paul Christensen

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Good idea, because some people go into extremes
and classify "crazy behaviour" as normal in some churches.
And make that their focus to form an opinion.
(gold dust falling from the ceiling)

I am actually surprised snake handling
has not been thrown into the discussion.

It's like this: A guy buys a new BMW car and runs into all kinds of issues and spend time and money fixing it..... A bad experience to say the least. In his opinion BMW's are now lousy cars and he'll buy never another one.Yet BMW's are very fine cars.

And so it is in the church world.
A confession was made by two ladies in the Redding Bethel church that they were given the job of pouring golden glitter into the ventilation system of the church to make it appear that gold dust was falling from heaven upon the people.

So, if deception took that form in that church, then one must question many other unusual and non-standard events there.
 

Mayflower

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Good idea, because some people go into extremes and classify it as normal events in certain churches.

I think amazing God events happen at church all the time. Just no one pays attention to them. It is pretty easy to spot flash and glamour for show events versus genuine/ authentic healings/miracles/spiritual gifts. Many are done behind the scenes where the crowds are not watching.

That is another gift that just came to mind. Prophetic utterance. I don't think I want to try that ever again. I think I did once to someone or something, but I think I saw it done and maybe thought it. I believe in it. I just don't like the idea of being so bold to say "Thus says the Lord," when I have never had any understanding of this spiritual gift. I want anything I do to be for God, not because I think something. Id want to know that I know something 200%.

Id rather just sing praise and worship and get a God dream to help someone. :D

Or God to use me to heal someone physically. That would be amazing.

But you really have to have a humble spirit I think, that brings me back to my point. I think amazing things of God are out of the spotlight. And it should be a wow, but not really. Like someone told me at my church last week. "Come, even if you are not feeling a hundred percent yet. I can assure you that you will be before practice, this is a house of healing." (Of course wisdom should be used), but that is faith. And healing is part of who God is. His Word heals.
 
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Mayflower

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You are correct. I do have a healthy distrust of abuse of gifts because in my last Charismatic church in the 1970s I saw so much misuse of prophecy and word of knowledge by those who desired power and control over others. I saw others being told they were healed of their sickness when they remained sick, and I saw people casting demons out of those who had no demons in the first place. I was also in a meeting where the preacher lined up all those who had come forward in an altar call, and went from one to another laying hands on them making them fall down backwards one after another. There was no requesting by the preacher exactly what their needs were or why they came forward for prayer. One guy, whom we all knew had serious social and spiritual issues, went down with a loud shout, and then got up with the attitude, "See, I can do it too!" It looked so false. There was a "senior" elder who used to get up and prophesy "corrections" to the prophecies of others in the meetings. The church was run by a board of elders who were, in theory equal to one another, but this man thought that he was the senior elder and demanded that the others accept his overall control.

So, after seven years in that church and seeing all the falsehood, people not getting healed through all the healing meetings that took place, and the gossiping that went on, I become very disillusioned and left the church and the Charismatic movement. That was 1978.

Around 20 years later, I re-established contact with a friend who founded a prophetic ministry. He taught the correct use of the gifts, and this was like a breath of fresh air for me. He ran a fortnightly "equipping" meeting and bi-monthly prophetic days, where he and his team trained people in the correct use of the gifts, and had group workshop sessions to put the teaching into practice. The Holy Spirit would become involved in those sessions, and we saw some good things happening. This restored my faith in the present day gifts of the Spirit. It is interesting that sensual and physical manifestations were not encouraged as evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit.

In fact, the elderly pastor of the Pentecostal mission church (not one in the Charismatic church) I attended as a 21 year old in the early 1970s taught that if the Holy Spirit was present, people got healed, demons were cast out, and prophecies were clearly seen as encouraging and upbuilding love letters from God. He believe that when he prayed in tongues, things happened, and they did. The only time I witnessed the glory of God coming down in a meeting was under that man's ministry. But there were no kundalini manifestations, rather than people fell on their knees weeping their hearts out to God and getting right with Him, the fallow ground in their hearts broken up and softened before Him.

I never saw any of that in the Charismatic church I attended from 1973-1978. It is interesting that after 20 years of being in non-Charismatic churches, that the teaching and mentoring of the elderly pastor came back to me, while the teaching and example of those in the later Charismatic church faded into forgetfulness.

So that gives some clue as to my attitude toward sensual manifestations. The Holy Spirit told me that if people are looking for sensual manifestations, the devil is always there to give them one.

My big fear is the sensual, since I am a pretty emotional driven person. But I think I go to a really good church and know my spiritual life has sky rocketed since going to a church where the signs gifts are taught and practiced. I stopped praying in tongues after Teen Challenge, because I was afraid of them. I thought my experience was fake. I thought what I heard in my head when I prayed sometimes was demonic and either ignored it or rebuked it. When I finally realized I needed to pray about them, God revealed to me they are true, so I started using them in prayer, and have regularly for the last three years. No one in my last church knew I did, and I never did in the church. And when I told someone, she spoke and acted as if it was demonic...

I just had to be true to God and this church now is awesome. I know there are fake churches out there, but I have witnessed some pretty genuine experiences here and learning a lot. Like, it isnt every Sunday we get a tongues and an interpretation. First time since Ive come actually (and around a year now). And it was about pressing into God.
 
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Mayflower

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A confession was made by two ladies in the Redding Bethel church that they were given the job of pouring golden glitter into the ventilation system of the church to make it appear that gold dust was falling from heaven upon the people.

So, if deception took that form in that church, then one must question many other unusual and non-standard events there.

Ug. That is awful
 
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Triumph1300

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A confession was made by two ladies in the Redding Bethel church that they were given the job of pouring golden glitter into the ventilation system of the church to make it appear that gold dust was falling from heaven upon the people.

So, if deception took that form in that church, then one must question many other unusual and non-standard events there.

Right.
But don’t judge all Pentecostal or Charismatic churches by such behaviour.
That’s what I am getting at.

And some of these reports are not even true, just made up by people who have an axe to grind.
 

Paul Christensen

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I think amazing God events happen at church all the time. Just no one pays attention to them. It is pretty easy to spot flash and glamour for show events versus genuine/ authentic healings/miracles/spiritual gifts. Many are done behind the scenes where the crowds are not watching.

That is another gift that just came to mind. Prophetic utterance. I don't think I want to try that ever again. I think I did once to someone or something, but I think I saw it done and maybe thought it. I believe in it. I just don't like the idea of being so bold to say "Thus says the Lord," when I have never had any understanding of this spiritual gift. I want anything I do to be for God, not because I think something. Id want to know that I know something 200%.

Id rather just sing praise and worship and get a God dream to help someone. :D

Or God to use me to heal someone physically. That would be amazing.

But you really have to have a humble spirit I think, that brings me back to my point. I think amazing things of God are out of the spotlight. And it should be a wow, but not really. Like someone told me at my church last week. "Come, even if you are not feeling a hundred percent yet. I can assure you that you will be before practice, this is a house of healing." (Of course wisdom should be used), but that is faith. And healing is part of who God is. His Word heals.
I don't believe that anyone should say, "Thus says the Lord" as part of a prophecy. Saying it is equal to speaking Scripture, and only the Holy Spirit who inspired written Scripture can do that. When I give a prophecy in a non-Charismatic church (or any other church for that matter), I say, "If Jesus was here He might say this to you." Then people are not put in a place where they feel conflict that they might be going against "thus says the Lord" if the prophecy is not relevant to them.
 
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