No authority!

[Illuminator]

1) Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Joseph H. Thayer, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 4th ed., 1977; orig. 1901, 392) defines it — as used in this verse — as follows:
“One who is a spectator of anything, e.g. of a contest, Heb 12:1.”

[Strong’s word #3144; similar usages cited by Thayer: Lk 24:48; Acts 1:8; 1:22; 2:32; 3:15; 5:32; 10:39; 13:31; 26:16; 1 Pet 5:1 – the sense is indisputable in these other verses]

2) Word Studies in the New Testament (Marvin R. Vincent, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1980; orig. 1887; vol. 4, 536), another standard Protestant language source, comments on this verse as follows:

‘Witnesses’ does not mean spectators, but those who have borne witness to the truth, as those enumerated in chapter 11. Yet the idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principal idea. The writer’s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he addresses are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith who, after having borne witness to the truth, have entered into their heavenly rest, watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid.​

3) Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson [Baptist], Nashville, Tennessee: Broadman Press, 1932, vol. 5, 432), comments:

‘Cloud of witnesses’ (nephos marturon . . . The metaphor refers to the great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud. The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (11:2,4-5, 33, 39) to God’s fulfilling promises as shown in chapter 11.
[Note that the notion of “spectators” is the primary metaphor — the arena — so that both meanings: that of spectators and witnesses in the sense of example are present. Neither can be ruled out]​

4) Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, (ed. Gerhard Kittel & Gerhard Friedrich; tr. and abridged by Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1985; 567), an impeccable and widely-used linguistic (non-Catholic) source, states:

“In Heb. 12:1 the witnesses watching the race seem to be confessing witnesses (cf. 11:2), but this does not exclude the element of factual witness.”​

So our four non-Catholic language references all confirm that the element of “spectatorship,” which lends itself to the Catholic notion of communion of saints, where saints in heaven are aware of, and observe events on earth, is present in Hebrews 12:1, and cannot be ruled out by any means, on the basis of a doctrinal bias.

“Witnesses” of Hebrews 12:1

Related Reading:

Invocation of the Saints = Necromancy? [10-18-08]

 

[Taken]

What does cult mean?

Ask "theefaith" he brought up "cult".

 

[theefaith]

Ask "theefaith" he brought up "cult".

simply means a following

 

[Taken]

simply means a following

So is there, eternal for anyone, without faith?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I think that baptism is not a work; because the Holy Ghost is absolutely promised to those who are baptized in Jesus' Name for the remission of sins as an identification with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection and therefore as a confession of Christ before men (see Matthew 10:32, Luke 12:8).

It's obviously something you do, but it's not a work of merit. You aren't justified by being baptized. That's the point.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Hebrews 12:1
​

Catholics believe that the saints in heaven are aware of happenings on the earth. They are not isolated and removed from earthly realities, but intimately involved in them, as Hebrews 12:1 strongly suggests. Witnesses is the Greek word martus, from which is derived the English word martyr. The reputable Protestant Greek scholars Marvin Vincent and A. T. Robertson comment on this verse as follows:

[T]he idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principal idea. The writer’s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he addresses are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith . . . watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid. ​

(Marvin R. Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament. 4 vols. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1946, IV, 536).

“Cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) . . . The metaphor refers to the great amphitheater with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud. The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (11:2, 4-5, 33, 39) to God’s fulfilling promises as shown in chapter 11 ​

(Word Pictures in the New Testament. 6 vols. Nashville: Broadman Press, 1930, V, 432).

Protestants try to explain this away, because they seem to fear the notion that saints in heaven and earth have an organic connection. They want simply to “go straight to God” and bypass all the mediating functions of the saints. This makes no more sense than it would to ignore the aid of fellow Christians on earth, whom we ask to lend a hand or pray for us. Albert Barnes provides one example of the Protestant outlook in this regard, in commenting on this passage in his Notes:

It cannot be fairly inferred from this that he means to say that all those ancient worthies were actually looking at the conduct of Christians, and saw their conflicts. It is a figurative representation, such as is common, and means that we ought to act as if they were in sight, and cheered us on. How far the spirits of the just who are departed from this world are permitted to behold what is done on earth — if at all — is not revealed in the Scriptures. (Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1983)

But Hebrews 12:1 does reveal it! Barnes’s theology will not let him see what is right in front of him, even though Robertson and Vincent see it. How does Barnes know this is “a figurative representation”? He provides us no reasons. What inherent limitation would stop saints in heaven from watching activities on the earth? Is it not more reasonable to assume (even apart from the scriptural evidence) that those in heaven will have at least as much knowledge of, and interest in, earthly affairs as those on the earth?

Barnes claims that Scripture does not inform us how much those in heaven know about the earth. Yet Revelation 5:8 and 6:9-10 show the saints assisting in offering God the “prayers of the saints” (in which case, presumably, they were aware of them) and praying for a certain outcome of events on the earth.

Protestant Bible scholars Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown, commenting on Revelation 6:10, writes:

The elect (not only on earth, but under Christ’s covering, and in his presence in Paradise) cry day and night to God, who will assuredly, in His own time, avenge his and their cause. (Robert Jamieson [Presbyterian], Andrew R. Fausset [Anglican], and David Brown [Anglican]. ​

Commentary on the Whole Bible. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1961)

Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott wrote:

The angels and the saints lay the prayers of the holy on earth at the feet of God, that is, they support them with their intercession as also might be expected from the permanency of charity (1 Cor. 13:8). The propriety of invoking them logically follows from the fact of their intercession (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. TAN Books, reprinted in 1974, 318).​

The saints are alive, and they love us! Protestants tend to think that such intercessions or involvements of the dead saints lead inexorably to idolatry.(or necromancy) But they do not, because we are not trying to replace God with saints. Idolatry is worshiping something or someone in place of God Almighty. Venerating a saint or asking him to pray is a fundamentally different concept.

Saints Are Closely Observing Us (“Cloud of Witnesses”)

19When men tell you to consult the spirits of the dead and the spiritists who whisper and mutter, shouldn’t a people consult their God instead? Isaiah 8:19

 

[Ferris Bueller]

has nothing to do with authority of governing the church

You, too, seem to have lost sight of the argument:

Jesus didn't give the crowds the ability OR the Authoirity to confect the Eucharist.
That was reserved for the Leaders of His Church (Matt. 26:26–28, Luke 22:19–20, Mark 14:22–24, 1 Cor. 11:23–25).

Jesus didn't give the crowds the ability OR the Authoirity to forgive sins or hold them bound.
That was reserved for the Leaders of His Church (John 20:21-23).

God didn't give the crowds the ability OR the Authoirity to pray over the sick and anoint them so that their sins would be forgiven.
That was reserved for the Leaders of His Church (James 5:14-15).

If you have a problem with the way God set things up - then complain to GOD. not me.

These things are not the sole purview of the Catholic hierarchy. You do not need the leadership of the Catholic church to accomplish any of these things.

 

[Brakelite]

Hebrews 12:1
​

Catholics believe that the saints in heaven are aware of happenings on the earth. They are not isolated and removed from earthly realities, but intimately involved in them, as Hebrews 12:1 strongly suggests. Witnesses is the Greek word martus, from which is derived the English word martyr. The reputable Protestant Greek scholars Marvin Vincent and A. T. Robertson comment on this verse as follows:

[T]he idea of spectators is implied, and is really the principal idea. The writer’s picture is that of an arena in which the Christians whom he addresses are contending in a race, while the vast host of the heroes of faith . . . watches the contest from the encircling tiers of the arena, compassing and overhanging it like a cloud, filled with lively interest and sympathy, and lending heavenly aid. ​

(Marvin R. Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament. 4 vols. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans Pub. Co., 1946, IV, 536).

“Cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) . . . The metaphor refers to the great amphitheater with the arena for the runners and the tiers upon tiers of seats rising up like a cloud. The martures here are not mere spectators (theatai), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience (11:2, 4-5, 33, 39) to God’s fulfilling promises as shown in chapter 11 ​

(Word Pictures in the New Testament. 6 vols. Nashville: Broadman Press, 1930, V, 432).

Protestants try to explain this away, because they seem to fear the notion that saints in heaven and earth have an organic connection. They want simply to “go straight to God” and bypass all the mediating functions of the saints. This makes no more sense than it would to ignore the aid of fellow Christians on earth, whom we ask to lend a hand or pray for us. Albert Barnes provides one example of the Protestant outlook in this regard, in commenting on this passage in his Notes:

It cannot be fairly inferred from this that he means to say that all those ancient worthies were actually looking at the conduct of Christians, and saw their conflicts. It is a figurative representation, such as is common, and means that we ought to act as if they were in sight, and cheered us on. How far the spirits of the just who are departed from this world are permitted to behold what is done on earth — if at all — is not revealed in the Scriptures. (Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1983)

But Hebrews 12:1 does reveal it! Barnes’s theology will not let him see what is right in front of him, even though Robertson and Vincent see it. How does Barnes know this is “a figurative representation”? He provides us no reasons. What inherent limitation would stop saints in heaven from watching activities on the earth? Is it not more reasonable to assume (even apart from the scriptural evidence) that those in heaven will have at least as much knowledge of, and interest in, earthly affairs as those on the earth?

Barnes claims that Scripture does not inform us how much those in heaven know about the earth. Yet Revelation 5:8 and 6:9-10 show the saints assisting in offering God the “prayers of the saints” (in which case, presumably, they were aware of them) and praying for a certain outcome of events on the earth.

Protestant Bible scholars Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown, commenting on Revelation 6:10, writes:

The elect (not only on earth, but under Christ’s covering, and in his presence in Paradise) cry day and night to God, who will assuredly, in His own time, avenge his and their cause. (Robert Jamieson [Presbyterian], Andrew R. Fausset [Anglican], and David Brown [Anglican]. ​

Commentary on the Whole Bible. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1961)

Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott wrote:

The angels and the saints lay the prayers of the holy on earth at the feet of God, that is, they support them with their intercession as also might be expected from the permanency of charity (1 Cor. 13:8). The propriety of invoking them logically follows from the fact of their intercession (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma. TAN Books, reprinted in 1974, 318).​

The saints are alive, and they love us! Protestants tend to think that such intercessions or involvements of the dead saints lead inexorably to idolatry.(or necromancy) But they do not, because we are not trying to replace God with saints. Idolatry is worshiping something or someone in place of God Almighty. Venerating a saint or asking him to pray is a fundamentally different concept.

Saints Are Closely Observing Us (“Cloud of Witnesses”)

Heaven is described as a place of intense joy and peace. Where all tears are wiped away, a place where pain, both emotional and physical, are completely expunged. No sickness, no death, no sorrow, no regrets.
What you are suggesting above, where our parents, or brothers and sisters, and in some cases even our children, are looking on in complete happiness and joy as their nearest and dearest suffer and navigate all the issues of life, with all the associated pain, frustration, and sorrows. And then of course there would be those who are so bound in sin... Drug addicts, alcoholics, murderers, adulterers, with some even guilty of precipitating the demise of those very families who are supposedly witnessing children or parents continuing their evil habits with others. You would have these "witnesses" devoid of all empathy in order to be at joy and peace. Such a scenario is quite frankly utterly untenable with all logic and common sense. And none of it glorifies God at all. It's all about Catholic Antichrist removal of the sole mediatorial role of our High Priest. But that's jesuit teaching for you.

 

[Taken]

19When men tell you to consult the spirits of the dead and the spiritists who whisper and mutter, shouldn’t a people consult their God instead? Isaiah 8:19

Excellent!
Worth repeating for those that are listening.

Isaiah 8:
[19] And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

God Bless,
Taken

 

[justbyfaith]

It's obviously something you do, but it's not a work of merit. You aren't justified by being baptized. That's the point.

Nevertheless, it is possible to receive remission of sins and the Holy Ghost as the direct result of being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins (Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39).

 

[Brakelite]

Excellent!
Worth repeating for those that are listening.

Isaiah 8:
[19] And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

God Bless,
Taken

And verse 20, if believed, would solve all our problems and confusions.
... For the living to the dead?
To the law and to the testimony. If they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I don't "deny" anything.
Kissing the Pope's ring has MORE than a single meaning.

It acknowledges his God-given Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, John 21:15-19).
It is a sign of love and respect.

Since when does kissing equal "worship"??

Revelation 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

This explains a little bit of why you don't seem to have a problem. Why does he have a ring in the first place? Where in the Bible do we see anyone kissing a ring? Did the disciples kiss the ring of Jesus? Did Peter kiss the ring of Christ? Did Cornelius kiss the ring of Peter? Are you so used to what you do that you have forgotten what it means? Do you know the definition of "worship"? What does it mean, "all who dwell on the earth will worship him?"

What did Jesus teach his true apostles? Do you not know that Jesus' true apostles never allow anyone to kiss their ring. Jesus taught his true apostles to wash the feet of those whom they serve. This included Peter. See John 13:5-11. Peter never asked anyone to bow down to him or kiss his ring. Rather, Peter was to wash people's feet as Jesus instructed him.

12 So when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments and reclined at the table again, He said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? 13 You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. 14 If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you. 16 Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him. 17 If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them.

Jesus true apostles know that they are NOT in authority over anyone; rather, they are the servant of everyone. Your master demands that you kiss his ring, demonstrating that he is NOT one of Jesus' apostles. He is an antiChrist, a person that distorts the teaching of Jesus in order to maintain a man-made empire.

 

[Taken]

[/QUOTE]

Hebrews 12:1
​

Catholics believe that the saints in heaven are aware of happenings on the earth. They are not isolated and removed from earthly realities, but intimately involved in them, as Hebrews 12:1 strongly suggests.

Heb 12:
[1] Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us...

Yes there is a great cloud of witnesses.
They are "saints" who have gone before us;
Believing "without" Seeing.

They Are "great", reference to many.
They Are "a cloud" of witnesses, reference to place.

•You propose...Saints in Heaven Observe Persons on Earth.

•Heaven's saints, are in peace and joy...
WHILE observing, people on Earth in chaos, wars, Lying, Cheating, Suffering?
Uh no.

• Don't know about you...but to me, Observing people in Suffering IS NOT peaceful or joyful.

•Holy Angel's are Gods Messengers AND Servants. THEY; Gods Holy Angel's ...
Serve God, by providing Messages to Earthly Saints.
Testimony to Heavenly Saints...is via;

1 John 5:
[7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

In short;
There is no "interaction" between Heavenly Saints and Earthly Saints.

Messages from God, to Earthly Saints is VIA Gods Holy Angel's.

Messages to Heavenly Saints is VIA The Lord God Almighty.

The Saints in Heaven are IN Peace and Joy, and ARE "given". (NOT Observing)..."but GIVEN" Joyful news, about men on Earth....
Most Particularly..."when another Earthling"...
Has become, Converted IN Christ!

Understanding is Key.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What did Jesus teach his true apostles? Do you not know that Jesus' true apostles never allow anyone to kiss their ring. Jesus taught his true apostles to wash the feet of those whom they serve. This included Peter. See John 13:5-11. Peter never asked anyone to bow down to him or kiss his ring.

Insert 'the Pope' in place of 'Peter' in this passage....

As Peter was about to enter, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet to worship him. But Peter helped him up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.” Acts 10:25-26​

 

[Taken]

And verse 20, if believed, would solve all our problems and confusions.
... For the living to the dead?
To the law and to the testimony. If they speak not according to this word, there is no light in them.

No light "IN" them...agree.

There IS, the "PERIOD" ... that "Effects every person"...effects of one of the greater "confusions when it comes to Scriptural Understanding"

All begin, in Sin and ignorant of God and His Truth.

Hearing, is the "beginning" ... of receiving the Truth. (Reading / studying /verifying) is an advancement God Himself established).

Fact being...a Period of Time established Between ....hearing....and concluding A Belief.

(That ^ inter-space of Time...is effected IN anything new a person is first hearing and learning About, people hear, wonder, doubt, challenge, believe, question, doubt, leading to belief or rejection)

•Spiritually...pertaining to Gods Word...
EVERY Time a man IS hearing Gods Word...
That individual is "given a gift" by God..."OF"
"Measures of enLIGHTenment"...

THAT ^ enLIGHTenment...IS via Gods Light.
It's called "A TASTE"...
••It's a TASTE of Gods Light "WITH The Man"

A TASTE...of something GOOD....Expressly Entices a person to Seek More.

A TASTE...of something BAD....Expressly Entices a person to Spit it out.

The Effect is...one who continues Receiving Gods Word IS receiving...a TASTE, and more Tastes....AND more of Gods LIGHT "WITH" Him INCREASED.

Gods Desire is the man TO freely Choose to Continue Hearing, Continue Receiving " Gods enLIGHTENment With the man....

That the man "choose", To Declare to the Lord, His Belief (from his heart)...
He IS prepared, ready, willing...
TO Receive....Gods LIGHT.... with-IN .

•THEN is the moment Everything For That man...CHANGES.
Gods Light/Word/Truth/Goodness...
Becomes...NOT only "WITH" that man...
But also "praise God"..."IN" the man.
•Once and Forever...Gods Light "Kept"...
"WITH and IN" the man, BY God Power.

ON the flip side...the man Who freely chooses to REJECT Gods "enLIGHTenment"...
STOPS receiving "Gods TASTE" of Gods Light "WITH" them...
And that man is called...having "Fallen From Faith".

The confusions in teaching... is ignoring...
Tasting...is Gods Light "WITH" a man, for the man choosing to Hear, (and a man can choose to stop hearing, walk away, receive no more of Gods Light with him).
A man choosing to Submit to Conversion...
Is WHEN a man Receives Gods Light..."With and "IN" Him Forever.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I don't "deny" anything.
Kissing the Pope's ring has MORE than a single meaning.

It acknowledges his God-given Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, John 21:15-19).
It is a sign of love and respect.

Since when does kissing equal "worship"??

Gods Authority is Expressly Given, authorized ... forward to men WHO Teach and preach Gods Word...WITHIN the Confines of Gods Word!

God Expressly appointed an "EXAMPLE" Earthly "father"... Expressly Identified as "the Hebrew; that God "renamed" Abraham.

Popes are men, who change their own names, and are Elected by a Group of men called Cardinals, who are appointed by men.

Popes, are Historically, (by Design of Igneous' Vision)...
•Bishops in the Church...Head of the Governing Body of geographically located Churches.
•Bishop in Rome- Head Church- Head Governing Position over all Churches.
•Head Bishop in Rome "entitled Head Bishop" ... Pope.

Review Igneous' Vision for the Church.
Bishops are Earthly "gods".
Cardinals are Earthly "christ's".
Church members are Earthly "disciples" and "subject TO: the Governing Authority" of the Bishops...without the members (subjects) "objections".

A great number of People "subscribe To" and "choose to subject themselves TO"...a man-made "governing power", of a small group of men, who appoint and elect eachother, and then "Rule by Dictation Over Others", without Objection...from the "subjects under their rule".

And there are a great number of People, WHO, choose to "subject themselves" to Gods "governing Power"...
His Government, His Holiness, His Highest Position, His Highest Authority, His Fathership, His Word, His Truth, His Appointed High Priest....

Big difference ...
You want to support bowing Down, kissing "your" holy father, or his possessions ...
That's your Earthly business.

We Bow Down IN Spirit, To our Exclusive Holy Father (who IS Spirit), unseen, IN Heaven, That His Eyes, sees and receives Our Worship of Him exclusively.

Don't be sad...you can read Scripture, and Learn HOW the Lord God Almighty can Be your Holy Father too.

 

[Brakelite]

No light "IN" them...agree.

There IS, the "PERIOD" ... that "Effects every person"...effects of one of the greater "confusions when it comes to Scriptural Understanding"

All begin, in Sin and ignorant of God and His Truth.

Hearing, is the "beginning" ... of receiving the Truth. (Reading / studying /verifying) is an advancement God Himself established).

Fact being...a Period of Time established Between ....hearing....and concluding A Belief.

(That ^ inter-space of Time...is effected IN anything new a person is first hearing and learning About, people hear, wonder, doubt, challenge, believe, question, doubt, leading to belief or rejection)

•Spiritually...pertaining to Gods Word...
EVERY Time a man IS hearing Gods Word...
That individual is "given a gift" by God..."OF"
"Measures of enLIGHTenment"...

THAT ^ enLIGHTenment...IS via Gods Light.
It's called "A TASTE"...
••It's a TASTE of Gods Light "WITH The Man"

A TASTE...of something GOOD....Expressly Entices a person to Seek More.

A TASTE...of something BAD....Expressly Entices a person to Spit it out.

The Effect is...one who continues Receiving Gods Word IS receiving...a TASTE, and more Tastes....AND more of Gods LIGHT "WITH" Him INCREASED.

Gods Desire is the man TO freely Choose to Continue Hearing, Continue Receiving " Gods enLIGHTENment With the man....

That the man "choose", To Declare to the Lord, His Belief (from his heart)...
He IS prepared, ready, willing...
TO Receive....Gods LIGHT.... with-IN .

•THEN is the moment Everything For That man...CHANGES.
Gods Light/Word/Truth/Goodness...
Becomes...NOT only "WITH" that man...
But also "praise God"..."IN" the man.
•Once and Forever...Gods Light "Kept"...
"WITH and IN" the man, BY God Power.

ON the flip side...the man Who freely chooses to REJECT Gods "enLIGHTenment"...
STOPS receiving "Gods TASTE" of Gods Light "WITH" them...
And that man is called...having "Fallen From Faith".

The confusions in teaching... is ignoring...
Tasting...is Gods Light "WITH" a man, for the man choosing to Hear, (and a man can choose to stop hearing, walk away, receive no more of Gods Light with him).
A man choosing to Submit to Conversion...
Is WHEN a man Receives Gods Light..."With and "IN" Him Forever.

God Bless,
Taken

I think I see what you're getting at. The reformation stalled because the Lutherans refused further light, and persecuted the Calvinists. The Calvinists and the Lutherans refused further light, and persecuted the anabaptists. The Wesley brothers were rejected by the earlier reformers, and so it went on. All of them brought some light, but refused to walk further. Hence why protestantism today still cleaves to so much of Rome's traditions and heresies.
The same supplies to individuals. We may have a certain light regarding some points of truth, but if we allow our preconceptions to rule our growth, we will stall also, and end up fighting those whose light we reject.

 

[Taken]

Why does he have a ring in the first place?

Earthly "Kings"...Ruled "the limits of their kingdom" designated by "land borders".

Any "dictation, orders, communitation", not communated "face to face" with the king, was therefore sent by "writing".

For a person Receiving a message from the "king" To Factually KNOW it WAS from the king (and NOT a forgery)...

The written message was SEALED with hot wax, and "the Kings Seal" was pressed into the hot wax.

The Kings Seal, was historically, emblazoned on a ring, the king could wear, and have secure safe keeping of "His seal" marker.

The EXPRESS "land/kingdom" of the Catholic Church...Is the Vatican City.
The Head Of their Government IS ...
Both...
The Head of their Government.
And
The Head of their Spiritual Beliefs.

He ...pope...is:
THEIR Head ...several titles:
Bishop of Rome, Pontif, Pope, Holy Father, etc.

His Duty is To exalt God and Oversee the teaching of Exalting God to People...

• PROBLEM...big difference between Exalting God and "taking on the Role of God", Ruler, Kingship, Holy Father!!!"

Gods Seal, IS Christ, not some golden ring with an emblazened insignia to be kissed and the wearer of that ring to be exalted, bowed to and with Titles exclusive to God.

Where in the Bible do we see anyone kissing a ring?

We don't. Because kissing the insignia of a man's Seal, is a man's tradition, signifying the one "kissing the ring" IS IN allegiance to the wearer of the ring's "WORD".

Being Sealed, BY Gods Seal, IS a Spiritual Event between One man and the Lord God, signifying that one man "IN" Allegiance with Gods Word.

Understanding is Key. (Many do not understand).

God Bless,
Taken

 

[theefaith]

It's obviously something you do, but it's not a work of merit. You aren't justified by being baptized. That's the point.

Oh ya?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

 

[theefaith]

You, too, seem to have lost sight of the argument:

These things are not the sole purview of the Catholic hierarchy. You do not need the leadership of the Catholic church to accomplish any of these things.

you need the ordained priesthood