For free will believers out there

[Truther]

And so, is that it? I thought so.

Tong
R2242

Do you serve a humble God?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We know that. I wrote it the way I did to emphasise the deity of Jesus. I forget nothing, you said I had forgotten. Is there nothing you get right!
.

I get much right! But when you write strongly implying something I will respond. If I err I apologize. So I apologize.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

John 15:26.
.

That was for them, not for us! We are not tasked as apostles and we were not in person by Jesus. The Holy Spirit for us illuminates and enlightens, but will not reveal apart from the Word.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That sounds good. But what about those who died at infancy?

Tong
R2222

Jesus HImself said that unless someone is born from above, they cannot see the kingdom.

Whether infants can receive Christ or not we cannot say.

But therw are billions who never got the chance to even hear the gospel once! and they are lost forever.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I do not subscribe to the view that Jesus went and preached unto the dead before his resurrection. For after death, is judgment, not anything else, for them who died already.

<<<No one is unreachable; nothing is too hard for the Lord.>>>

I agree. But does not not give me reason to believe what I see as not taught in scriptures, that Jesus preached to those who had died or to the dead. Preaching is for those living.

Also @Ronald Nolette

Tong
R2227

Then you do not understand the nature of hell/sheol/hades/ the grave. Bodies die, but souls don't. Prior to the ascension of Jesus, all the righteous dead went to the part of hell called Abrahams Bosom/ Paradise. The penitent thief went there upon death. Teh righteous could not go to heaven for the blood of Jesus had not been applied to the mercy seat in heaven! Once jesus applied the blood to the real mercy seat in heaven, these souls were set free and went to heaven.

Now whenever a believer dies as Paul said in Corinthians, to be absent rom the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Oh sorry. Honestly, I forgot about that as I had me focused on the matter of how those who have not heard the gospel of Christ are saved.

Anyway, let me do so now. Here goes my view regarding election of God and free will of man. Using and starting with the same scriptures,

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

That “in Adam” and “in Christ” speaks a lot. The former effectively says that all mankind, by simply being in Adam, when he disobeyed (sinned) God, were all made sinners as well. So that, all mankind, individually and personally, die without their will having anything to do with it. The latter, in like sense, effectively says that all those who are in Christ, by simply being in Him, when He obeyed (righteous act), will be made righteous. So that, all people who are in Christ, individually and personally, are made alive without their will having anything to do with it.

The question left now is who are those who are in Christ. They are those who were chosen by God and given to Jesus Christ, the second Adam, as also those who are in Adam, are those given by God to him, the first Adam. So, individual will still has nothing to do with that.

I agree with your "in Christ" 100% However your in Adam is wrong. all mankind was and is in Adam by default/nature. God gives none over to that. We are that naturally. It is god selection those "in adam" and placing them in Christ that is the key and you are right our will has nothing to dso with it.

Regarding “in Adam”, all that were in Adam are in Adam only because they are placed in Adam by their creator, who is also God. That is what I meant when I said “those who are in Adam are those given by God to him”.

Tong
R2246

 

[Ronald Nolette]

<<<However even the saved desereve to be lost forever. >>>

What do you mean to say by that? That seems to be problematic.

Tong
R2228

That even the saved, by nature deserve to spend eternity in the lake of fire! We go to heaven by the mercy and grace of God, not because we earned it or deserve it of ourselves.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Regarding “in Adam”, all that were in Adam are in Adam only because they are placed in Adam by their creator, who is also God. That is what I meant when I said “those who are in Adam are those given by God to him”.

Tong
R2246

I am not sure I can agree with that. We may be saying the same thing, but your wording leaves it open to interpetation.

We are in Adam, for God ordered all creatures to reproduce and fill the earth. Adam and Eve fell before children were vborn, so we are all in Adam simply because we are the natural offspring. Given by God in my understanding is a very powerful term.

 

[Cooper]

That was for them, not for us! We are not tasked as apostles and we were not in person by Jesus. The Holy Spirit for us illuminates and enlightens, but will not reveal apart from the Word.

The work of spreading the Gospel is until He comes again, aided by the power of the Holy Spirit who guides me and keeps me and, many more like me.
.

 

[justbyfaith]

Agree, except for that which is written at the door on the outside. Perhaps, “Door of the Jesus’ sheep.”

Tong
R2240

So, how does anyone outside the door know that they are Jesus' sheep and therefore have a right to enter through the door?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That sounds good. But what about those who died at infancy?

Tong
R2222

Jesus HImself said that unless someone is born from above, they cannot see the kingdom.

Whether infants can receive Christ or not we cannot say.

But therw are billions who never got the chance to even hear the gospel once! and they are lost forever.

Regarding those who die as infants, what sin do you say they are guilty of? I know not any except of their sin in Adam. And that is not willful and intentional on their part. I believe that that was taken cared of by the blood of Jesus Christ. For Jesus said concerning little children, “for of such is the kingdom of God”.

Regarding the billions you refer to that never heard the gospel that the apostle preached, the question is, are they saved? I have already told you in my response to your OP, that God, since the time that Adam sinned, is working out His salvation of His people, whom He had chosen by grace. A salvation that is by and through faith in Him. So He gives them faith. And faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God. Consider those men mentioned in Hebrews 11 for example, how were they saved? By faith in God. So, those supposed billions that had not been reached by the gospel preached by the apostles, those chosen of God, those whom God had given the grace of salvation, those who had faith in God, as did those men in Hebrews 11, they too are saved.

Tong
R2247

 

[justbyfaith]

Agree, except for that which is written at the door on the outside. Perhaps, “Door of the Jesus’ sheep.”

Tong
R2240

So, how does anyone outside the door know that they are Jesus' sheep and therefore have a right to enter through the door?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I do not subscribe to the view that Jesus went and preached unto the dead before his resurrection. For after death, is judgment, not anything else, for them who died already.

<<<No one is unreachable; nothing is too hard for the Lord.>>>

I agree. But does not not give me reason to believe what I see as not taught in scriptures, that Jesus preached to those who had died or to the dead. Preaching is for those living.

Also @Ronald Nolette

Then you do not understand the nature of hell/sheol/hades/ the grave. Bodies die, but souls don't. Prior to the ascension of Jesus, all the righteous dead went to the part of hell called Abrahams Bosom/ Paradise. The penitent thief went there upon death. Teh righteous could not go to heaven for the blood of Jesus had not been applied to the mercy seat in heaven! Once jesus applied the blood to the real mercy seat in heaven, these souls were set free and went to heaven.

Now whenever a believer dies as Paul said in Corinthians, to be absent rom the body is to be present with the Lord.

<<<Then you do not understand the nature of hell/sheol/hades/ the grave. Bodies die, but souls don't. >>>

The matter is not because bodies die and souls don’t. Rather, what scriptures say regarding the preaching of the gospel. And it is clear in scriptures that that not happen in that, after death is judgment. If, for the sake of argument, Jesus went to the dead, it was not as a matter of evangelism but a matter of declaration. For in addition to the truth in Hebrews 9:27, there is a picture given by scriptures, such as that no one can transfer from hades to where dead Abraham is said to be.

Tong
R2248

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<However even the saved desereve to be lost forever. >>>

What do you mean to say by that? That seems to be problematic.

That even the saved, by nature deserve to spend eternity in the lake of fire! We go to heaven by the mercy and grace of God, not because we earned it or deserve it of ourselves.

Got that. Thanks.

I agree that scriptures teaches that.

Tong
R2249

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Regarding “in Adam”, all that were in Adam are in Adam only because they are placed in Adam by their creator, who is also God. That is what I meant when I said “those who are in Adam are those given by God to him”.

I am not sure I can agree with that. We may be saying the same thing, but your wording leaves it open to interpetation.

We are in Adam, for God ordered all creatures to reproduce and fill the earth. Adam and Eve fell before children were vborn, so we are all in Adam simply because we are the natural offspring. Given by God in my understanding is a very powerful term.

Well, I think all that we say are open to interpretation.

God is the creator of all things. In Adam, God created mankind. They are in Adam, in his loins, so to speak. There is nothing that is in Adam that God had not given and created when He created him into being. In other words, they are a given.

Tong
R2250

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Agree, except for that which is written at the door on the outside. Perhaps, “Door of the Jesus’ sheep.”

So, how does anyone outside the door know that they are Jesus' sheep and therefore have a right to enter through the door?

The Holy Spirit takes care of that. When is that and how is that is according to the Holy Spirit’s wise and perfect will, not to mention His purpose.

Jesus said He is the door of the sheep, not of anyone else, but of the sheep.

Tong
R2251

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And so, is that it? I thought so.

Do you serve a humble God?

The God I serve is good and is not one that was created, formed, or made.

How about you? Do you serve a created, formed, or made God and serve another God who created the former? It seems to me you serve two Gods, one almighty and another one mighty? Or do you serve only one God? I am curious as well.

Tong
R2253

 

[Truther]

The God I serve is good and is not one that was created, formed, or made.

How about you? Do you serve a created, formed, or made God and serve another God who created the former? It seems to me you serve two Gods, one almighty and another one mighty? Or do you serve only one God? I am curious as well.

Tong
R2253

I serve the almighty God through the humble man.....


For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

<<<Jesus came in the likeness of the first man Adam. Just as the first Adam wasn't a God-Man, neither was the last Adam, Jesus. >>>

Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (1 John 4:2-3). Relevant to this, see Phil.2:6-7.

<<<Adam, who lost everlasting life in human perfection.....>>>

Where in scriptures does it teach that Adam has everlasting life, and that he lost it? I am not aware of any passage in the Bible that teaches that. Does your Bible (NWT) teach that? Can you tell us where you got that?

Tong
R2237

Adam knowingly and willingly sinned. He wasn't deceived. Doesn't your Bible teach you that Adam wasn't deceived.

Also as I said and will continue to Jesus Christ came as the equal human the first Adam was before he sinned. The first Adam wasn't a God-Man so neither was Jesus Christ. Your sayingJesus came more than human if you say Jesus was a God-Man when he was on Earth

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The God I serve is good and is not one that was created, formed, or made.

How about you? Do you serve a created, formed, or made God and serve another God who created the former? It seems to me you serve two Gods, one almighty and another one mighty? Or do you serve only one God? I am curious as well.

I serve the almighty God through the humble man.....

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

I would guess that humble man you are referring to is Jesus, right? Which you said the almighty God you serve made into a God, right? And if your almighty God made Jesus into God, you must be taking Jesus as a created, formed or made God, right? Do you serve and worship the humble man?

Now your almighty God said in scriptures:

Isaiah 43:10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.

It seems you did not believe what your almighty God said there. Well,....

Tong
R2261