For free will believers out there

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Oh I do care. That’s why I am for clarity. But it seems, a simple clarification for a question so simple as that, and could be clarified by a direct and simple answer, you repeatedly does not want to make clarification. Who now really do not care? I wonder why you don’t want to clarify. Do you want to not be correctly understood? Well,...don’t expect to be correctly understood.

Tong
R2380

Because all we are doing is going in circles, I'm not going to agree with you and you're not going to agree with me so move on

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Excuse me. I’d just like to ask.

Do you see that in Mark 14:62 as blasphemy? If so? Why?

No but the pharisee's did in answer to their question in v 61.

No, not actually the Pharisees, but the high priest of Israel, with the agreement of the council of chief priests, the elders, and the scribes, and even the agreement of the common Jews in attendance then. Where did you get that it was the Pharisees?

So, are you suggesting that while you know what is blasphemy, the high priest and the council do not know what blasphemy is? And are you suggesting too that Israel do not know too what blasphemy is, while you do?

Perhaps you can at least tell us what blasphemy is to the High priest, and the council that they openly charged Jesus of having committed blasphemy by His answer in v.62 to the question in v.61?

Tong
R2384

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Crap? I would not dare say of scriptures as crap

No. The Scripture is not crap. The crap is trinitarians desperately searching for unitarian Scripture to support their doctrine.

I am glad to hear that it is not scriptures but something else as those trinitarians you accuse of. Thanks for the clarification. It made a lot of difference.

Tong
R2385

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And no other prophet, who spoken God’s words, is the Word of God.

Jesus is not the word of God. I guess you are so immersed in mysticism and duality you cannot see it. Hunter is the son of Joe Biden. This necessarily means Hunter is not Joe. No son is the father. A is A.

<<<Jesus is not the word of God.>>>

According to you, but not according to scriptures, specifically those written by the apostle John (John 1).

I was told by the Holy Spirit, through scriptures, through the writing of the apostle Paul, that scriptures which are the things of the Spirit of God, are not discerned by means similar to how the natural man discern things, like what you suggest there, but that they are spiritually discerned.

Tong
R2386

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
While God sent Jesus, let me ask you this:

Did the Holy Spirit send Jesus?

There is no being 'Holy Spirit.' Man has spirit. This does not make man 2 people. The text says God (in his unitarian nature) sent Jesus. The plain meaning from Jesus is that he is not God. Everyone understands this, except trinitarians.

My view of the Holy Spirit is different. I view Him as a person. And scriptures are plenty that refers to Him as a person, not just some thing that isn’t a person.

With your take of the Holy Spirit, I would take that your answer to the question is a No. So, here’s a related question:

Did Jesus and the Father send the Holy Spirit? I guess this time your answer would be yes. If that is your answer, the following questions among many comes up:

1. Can Jesus send not a person?
2. Can the Father send not a person?
3. What is this Holy Spirit that Jesus and the Father sent, if not a person?

Many more questions comes out that argues against the idea that the Holy Spirit is not a person, but those will do, I guess.

Tong
R2387

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
In the beginning was the Word. That isn’t figurative at all.

LOL That's funny.

Did you LOL when you read John 1:1?

And I don’t believe that you think or expect to have refuted what I said by that, nor expect those who read this thread that you have refuted it.

Tong
R2388

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
A very long and complicated answer to a very simple question.

The question was WHO was Him who became flesh (man) in coming to the world, as the Messiah, the Savior of the world?

According to apostle John, He was the Word, who was God (John 1:1).

No John doesn't contradict scripture, people do. God didn't inspire John to write The Word is God. God inspired John to write, "In the beginning was The Word and The Word was with The God and The Word was a god.
Now I know that you will disagree with this transition of John 1:1 and I'm not going to agree with your interpretation of John 1:1. Gods Holy Spirit inspired John to write that first part of John 1:1- "in the beginning was The Word and The Word was with The God." This first part of John 1:1 isn't to be contradicted by the last part of John 1:1. So as long as someone says last part of John 1:1 is to be translated, "The Word is God," they contradict the first part of John 1:1. Anyone who contradicts the first part of John 1:1 by their interpretation I'm not going to agree with their interpretation. Their interpretation contradicts the first part of John 1:1. Scripture doesn't do that imperfect humans do that by their interpretations.
The Only Begotten Son of God is The Word that was in the beginning with The God. Those who have no faith will not believe The Word is The Only Begotten Son of God that was with The Only True God in the beginning.

<<<God inspired John to write, "In the beginning was The Word and The Word was with The God and The Word was a god.>>>

John wrote using the Greek language and text.

What you say there that God inspired for John to write, is an English translation done by those who have indoctrinated you, right? So, there it is.

Observe and consider:

The Greek text: Theos en ho logos

Literal translation: God was the word

NWT translation: the word was a god (your scriptures)

DRA Translation: the word was God (R. Catholic scriptures)

NKJV Translation: the word was God

Tong
R2389

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The Word was God (John 1:1).

You contradict scripture, and you deny it was the Only Begotten Son of God became human

Why is it your habit, if not character, of accusing falsely?

I quoted scriptures and you respond with that? wow! Incredible!

Tong
R2390

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Oh I do care. That’s why I am for clarity. But it seems, a simple clarification for a question so simple as that, and could be clarified by a direct and simple answer, you repeatedly does not want to make clarification. Who now really do not care? I wonder why you don’t want to clarify. Do you want to not be correctly understood? Well,...don’t expect to be correctly understood.

Because all we are doing is going in circles, I'm not going to agree with you and you're not going to agree with me so move on

I asked for clarification on a statement you made, and which you don’t want to clarify. And it seems now you go with the excuse that you don’t because we are just going in circles? Well,...

Tong
R2391

 

[Wrangler]

And that is not a even post addressed to me nor is it part of our conversation and exchanges. So what you accused me of ignoring the multiple verses you provided to support your position is shown to be false.

Appeal to Strawman. This is a public forum. Nowhere in post #579 do I specifically say this is meant for one poster. My statement stands. You know what my position is And ignored my best presentation of my position in this thread.

This is ALSO for you Tong2020. (Here is your special invitation. LOL)

Refer to the thread I started on The Case Against Trinitarianism. One verse I read is the 1C. If the plural 'our' in GE 1:26 is important, the singular 'me' in the 1C is even more important.

Another is when Jesus affirmed the SHEMA, the true God is one. Mark 12:29 Jesus: 29 The most important commandment is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Eternal One is our God, and the Eternal One is the only God.

Another verse is John 20:17 were the resurrected Jesus spoke of going to his God. There is only one God and it is Jesus' God. The Apostles affirmed this over and over and over again.

Blessed is God, the Father of our Lord Jesus, the Anointed One! Because He has raised Jesus the Anointed from death
1 Peter 1:3 (Voice)

'For Us, there is one God, the Father'
1 Corinthians 8:6

Grace and peace be with you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus the Anointed.
Philippians 1:2 The Voice

31 He has fixed a day of accountability, when the whole world will be justly evaluated by a new, higher standard: not by a statue, but by a living man. God selected this man and made Him credible to all by raising Him from the dead.
Acts 17:31

“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.
Mark 13:32

“The Father is greater than I”
John 14:28?

 

[Wrangler]

So, are you suggesting that while you know what is blasphemy, the high priest and the council do not know what blasphemy is?

Move the goal post much?! Most people accept that Jesus was condemned on false charges. It's not so much that the Pharisees (high priest of the council, if you prefer) do not know what blasphemy is as much as they want to murder him under any pretext.

My point in referencing the exchange was not to go down the rabbit hole of what blasphemy is but rather to point out they did not accuse Jesus of being God incarnate. The big reveal was that he is the Messiah, the son of God. (By definition, son's are not the Father).

'For us there is one God, the Father.'
1 Corinthians 8:6

 

[Wrangler]

My view of the Holy Spirit is different. I view Him as a person. And scriptures are plenty that refers to Him as a person, not just some thing that isn’t a person.

This is a trinitarian invention. The Spirit of '76 is not a person. You know that the Holy Spirit is NOT a person because we do not pray TO but FOR this Spirit. See Galatians 5 for the fruit of this Spirit.

 

[Wrangler]

Did you LOL when you read John 1:1?

And I don’t believe that you think or expect to have refuted what I said by that, nor expect those who read this thread that you have refuted it.

Tong
R2388

Jesus is not God. No desperate reliance on figurative verses will change that.


Jews: we have one Father: God.

Jesus: 42 I come from the one True God, and I’m not here on My own. He sent Me on a mission.
John 8:41-42 (VOICE)

 

[Truther]

What is the Greek text translated “made” in the KJV?

Tong
R2375

I don't read ancient Greek, nor does anyone else. This ability has died off after the KJV translators died off.

Folks today just make things up, thus hundreds of new translations are created.

 

[Truther]

You really don’t get it, why I believe that Jesus is the Son of man. I don’t need to know as you seem to need to, to believe that He is whom Jesus say He is, that He is the Son of Man. Scriptures did not say Jesus is “a” Son of Man nor did it say Jesus is the “Son of a Man”, but said He is “the Son of Man”.

Tong
R2376

Jesus called himself the son of man...

The expression "the Son of man" appears 81 times in the Koine Greek of the four Gospels: 30 times in Matthew, 14 times in Mark, 25 times in Luke and 12 times in John.


This means the son of Mary, and her ancestors.

Jesus was the biological son of Mary.

 

[Truther]

You're the one not going by scripture because Philippians 2:5-8 says that the Only Begotten Son of God existed in heaven before he came to the world of mankind and while in heaven before becoming human he was in God's form. You can deny that all you want but that's what the scriptures say.

He only existed in the mind and will of God, which is reality.

Did you know the Bible says some are damned from the foundation of the world before they are born?

Not by God's will, but by God's KNOWLEDGE.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And that is not a even post addressed to me nor is it part of our conversation and exchanges. So what you accused me of ignoring the multiple verses you provided to support your position is shown to be false.

Appeal to Strawman. This is a public forum. Nowhere in post #579 do I specifically say this is meant for one poster. My statement stands. You know what my position is And ignored my best presentation of my position in this thread.

Wrangler said: ↑
Refer to the thread I started on The Case Against Trinitarianism. One verse I read is the 1C. If the plural 'our' in GE 1:26 is important, the singular 'me' in the 1C is even more important.

Another is when Jesus affirmed the SHEMA, the true God is one. Mark 12:29 Jesus: 29 The most important commandment is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Eternal One is our God, and the Eternal One is the only God.

Another verse is John 20:17 were the resurrected Jesus spoke of going to his God. There is only oneGod and it is Jesus' God. The Apostles affirmed this over and over and over again.

Blessed is God, the Father of our Lord Jesus, the Anointed One! Because He has raised Jesus the Anointed from death
1 Peter 1:3 (Voice)

'For Us, there is one God, the Father'
1 Corinthians 8:6

Grace and peace be with you from God our Fatherand the Lord Jesus the Anointed.
Philippians 1:2 The Voice

31 He has fixed a day of accountability, when the whole world will be justly evaluated by a new, higher standard: not by a statue, but by a living man. God selected this man and made Him credible to all by raising Him from the dead.
Acts 17:31

“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.
Mark 13:32

“The Father is greater than I”
John 14:28?

This is ALSO for you Tong2020. (Here is your special invitation. LOL)

Yes this a public forum. But it does not mean that what you say in response to another is meant for all. Each dialogue was their own issues and context. Anyway, let me address now what you post here.

In all that you have said, what is your point? If you are saying that Jesus is a man. I agree.

However, it does not take away the truth that Jesus is the incarnated Word, the word whom John said was God.

Tong
R2394

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So, are you suggesting that while you know what is blasphemy, the high priest and the council do not know what blasphemy is?

Move the goal post much?! Most people accept that Jesus was condemned on false charges. It's not so much that the Pharisees (high priest of the council, if you prefer) do not know what blasphemy is as much as they want to murder him under any pretext.

My point in referencing the exchange was not to go down the rabbit hole of what blasphemy is but rather to point out they did not accuse Jesus of being God incarnate. The big reveal was that he is the Messiah, the son of God. (By definition, son's are not the Father).

'For us there is one God, the Father.'
1 Corinthians 8:6

My question is very much relevant. The high priest and the council accused Jesus of having blasphemed when He said He is the Messiah. And they certainly know what they accused Him of, which believers know was a false accusation. It is not that the accusation of blasphemy was wrong, but that Jesus was innocent, for He truly is the Messiah.

What we can understand is that, if Jesus was not the Messiah, He would be guilty of blasphemy. And why would that be blasphemy? The high priest and the council knows why, and even Israel knows why. Don’t you know why? It’s written in scriptures. Many times the Jews wanted to kill Jesus for that blasphemy.

Tong
R2395

 

[Wrangler]

In all that you have said, what is your point? If you are saying that Jesus is a man. I agree.

To reduce what I wrote as merely 'Jesus is a man' is another Appeal to Strawman. My point is there is only one, God, the Father. I reject dualism. Saying "Jesus is a man" MEANS he is not God. To re-iterate post #579 ... Refer to the thread I started on The Case Against Trinitarianism. One verse I read is the 1C. If the plural 'our' in GE 1:26 is important, the singular 'me' in the 1C is even more important.

Another is when Jesus affirmed the SHEMA, the true God is one. Mark 12:29 Jesus: 29 The most important commandment is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Eternal One is our God, and the Eternal One is the only God.

Another verse is John 20:17 were the resurrected Jesus spoke of going to his God. There is only one God and it is Jesus' God. The Apostles affirmed this over and over and over again.

Blessed is God, the Father of our Lord Jesus, the Anointed One! Because He has raised Jesus the Anointed from death
1 Peter 1:3 (Voice)

'For Us, there is one God, the Father'
1 Corinthians 8:6

Grace and peace be with you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus the Anointed.
Philippians 1:2 The Voice

31 He has fixed a day of accountability, when the whole world will be justly evaluated by a new, higher standard: not by a statue, but by a living man. God selected this man and made Him credible to all by raising Him from the dead.
Acts 17:31

“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.
Mark 13:32

“The Father is greater than I”
John 14:28?

It is AS IF you do not even recognize what the title of Jesus means. Christ means anointed. Jesus is acted upon. Jesus was anointed by God. (Emphasizing this is one reason I like the VOICE translation. Please tell me you accept in Acts 17:31 that God (in his unitarian nature) selected Jesus, a man; sent Jesus, as Jesus himself said in John 8:41-42.

 

[Wrangler]

What we can understand is that, if Jesus was not the Messiah, He would be guilty of blasphemy.

Wrong. Now you are doing laps on ground already covered.